Beleif vs. Non-Beleif

[Killswitch]

Experience doesn't limit free will, experience helps you make better decisions, it doesn't limit people, it frees people from limitations.

Thing is though, that's completely the wrong way round. Experience MASSIVELY limits your choices and your actions. It helps you make good decisions by exactly that method, in fact.

The point I was making is that we don't really have Free Will. Our decisions are based purely on sensory inputs, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion without invoking "God". If you decide to go and kill people, that decision is based in some way on the type of person you are and the experiences you've had.

Where we DO have a form of Free Will (which is the type I recognise) is that we can think about our thought processes and through the experience of thinking about ourselves, we can change the kind of person we are. An addict becomes an addict because of their brain chemistry, their personality and their experiences...nothing else. However, that same addict can think about their experiences and through that they can CHANGE their personality and brain chemistry/activity.

It's not quite as simple as that, but that's the point I was making. Experience doesn't set anyone free of anything...it gives people more information on which to base their decisions and to guide their thinking, but at the same time it massively reduces the available options or, to be more precise, the number of options that that particular person would find acceptable to them.

 

[Azurus]

Define religion.

Belief through blind faith of a higher power or being.

Funny how faith in spite of evidence is praised in religion but frowned upon in every other sphere of life....

 

[Heta]

I like the words "frowned upon"

 

[Killswitch]

Belief through blind faith of a higher power or being.

Funny how faith in spite of evidence is praised in religion but frowned upon in every other sphere of life....

Many religious people wouldn't consider their "faith" to be blind at all. In fact, a lot of very intelligent people (including scientists) examine their faith at great length and find it completely consistent with their world view and their experiences.

This makes me sad because it shows how pervasive the need for faith seems to be, even in people (like physicists and doctors) who's day to day job shows them miracles that make walking on water look like a cheap card-trick.

 

[Mojo]

Thing is though, that's completely the wrong way round. Experience MASSIVELY limits your choices and your actions. It helps you make good decisions by exactly that method, in fact.

The point I was making is that we don't really have Free Will. Our decisions are based purely on sensory inputs, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion without invoking "God". If you decide to go and kill people, that decision is based in some way on the type of person you are and the experiences you've had.

Where we DO have a form of Free Will (which is the type I recognise) is that we can think about our thought processes and through the experience of thinking about ourselves, we can change the kind of person we are. An addict becomes an addict because of their brain chemistry, their personality and their experiences...nothing else. However, that same addict can think about their experiences and through that they can CHANGE their personality and brain chemistry/activity.

It's not quite as simple as that, but that's the point I was making. Experience doesn't set anyone free of anything...it gives people more information on which to base their decisions and to guide their thinking, but at the same time it massively reduces the available options or, to be more precise, the number of options that that particular person would find acceptable to them.

Free will is the ability to freely make choices, what those choices might be are not related to free will but to other influences, personnel experience, influence from society etc

Limiting your choices and actions is not the same as limiting your free will, actions are limited in this case by consequences, you could very well go and stab someone up, you may just have to be more careful about it as not to get caught, it's not lack of free will that is limiting you, its your own unwillingness to live with what you have done, you could still go do it, there is nothing to stop you making that choice other than you. There are plenty of people who choose to do what the hell they like in this world, you choose not to be one of them.

At the end of the day you can disregard all of your experiences and do what the hell you want, but so can the people around you influence and experience guide you but they don't absolutely remove your free will.

 

[old.Tohtori]

To be f*cking honest, i don't give a flying arcturians a** about what you believe, if you believe or do you think the flying spaghetti monster is real or not.

I believe what i believe.
You believe what you believe.
Those who can cope with that reality without insults towards the other=cool.
Those who can't and have to insult others=not cool.

WHAT I DO HATE is the "all-mongers" of the world:

All you christians!(when speaking of religion)
You speak of the one god!
All you atheists!

Thinking that just because you're not in THIS camp, you must be in THAT camp. You're not atheist, you believe, so you MUST be christian/believe in one god.

In the immortal words of Billy Connelly...F*ck off!

 

[Azurus]

Many religious people wouldn't consider their "faith" to be blind at all. In fact, a lot of very intelligent people (including scientists) examine their faith at great length and find it completely consistent with their world view and their experiences.

This makes me sad because it shows how pervasive the need for faith seems to be, even in people (like physicists and doctors) who's day to day job shows them miracles that make walking on water look like a cheap card-trick.

I'm sure there are people who can't go through living their life without at least some meaning, to me it just seems abit cheap and easy to turn to religion to try and find it. I'd prefer to go mad searching for it than turn to organised religion, it makes me sick.

 

[Azurus]

To be f*cking honest, i don't give a flying arcturians a** about what you believe, if you believe or do you think the flying spaghetti monster is real or not.

I believe what i believe.
You believe what you believe.
Those who can cope with that reality without insults towards the other=cool.
Those who can't and have to insult others=not cool.

WHAT I DO HATE is the "all-mongers" of the world:

All you christians!(when speaking of religion)
You speak of the one god!
All you atheists!

Thinking that just because you're not in THIS camp, you must be in THAT camp. You're not atheist, you believe, so you MUST be christian/believe in one god.

In the immortal words of Billy Connelly...F*ck off!

I'm as much an athiest as anyone can be, i mean i can't KNOW there is no God, but lets just say i strongly believe it. The people who piss me off are the oones who just avoid the issue and never question, becoming for example a 'casual christian' as it's the done thing, to me they just seem spineless.

 

[Killswitch]

At the end of the day you can disregard all of your experiences and do what the hell you want, but so can the people around you influence and experience guide you but they don't absolutely remove your free will.

Gonna have one more crack at this and then give up...

You CANNOT disregard your experiences because without them, there would be no "you" to do the disregarding. If you make a decision to do something that goes against your "normal" character (ie stab someone in the face) it is BECAUSE of your experiences, your brain, your personality and the years of complex interaction between them.

No matter what you might think, the choice to go and kill someone is NOT spontaneous...the event or decision that triggers the action might be (a cheating partner for example) but the actual action needs both the decision/event AND a lifetime of development of the "you" that exists at the point the action is taken.

At the point the action is taken, you have no "Free Will"...where you DO have control is in the development of you as a person up to that point to be a mentally-strong, law-abiding, respectful individual who when faced with the event/decision "trigger" would do the right thing and NOT stab them (assuming not stabbing someone is "better" than stabbing them).

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm as much an athiest as anyone can be, i mean i can't KNOW there is no God, but lets just say is strongly believe it. The people who piss me off are the oones who just avoid the issue and never question, becoming a for example 'casual christian' as it's the done thing, to me they just seem spineless.

Aye, talking is cool, opens new views and all, but getting all "christians are morons" "you're dumb for believing in viking gods", that's just racism class ignorance.

One of the most interesting discussion we had in our "beer circle" the other night was when there was me(viking ways believer), old workmate(atheist), a woman(agnostic) and his friend(a christian).

 

[Killswitch]

I'm sure there are people who can't go through living their life without at least some meaning, to me it just seems abit cheap and easy to turn to religion to try and find it. I'd prefer to go mad searching for it than turn to organised religion, it makes me sick.

It's not usually a case of "turning" to religion...I'd expect that the number of people who "find" religion is vanishingly small compared to the number who were brought up with it. I'd expect that a great number of religious people don't even realise that there's an option.

People today have huge horizons, but it's not long ago that people who lived in a town or village believed that they would grow up, work, marry and die in that village. Moving away was a dream...not something that would ever be an option. In the same way, people born into a religious community don't realise that NOT being religious is a possibility, let alone something to aspire to.

 

[Mojo]

Gonna have one more crack at this

I'm not.

 

[Azurus]

Aye, talking is cool, opens new views and all, but getting all "christians are morons" "you're dumb for believing in viking gods", that's just racism class ignorance.

One of the most interesting discussion we had in our "beer circle" the other night was when there was me(viking ways believer), old workmate(atheist), a woman(agnostic) and his friend(a christian).

I wouldn't put it in the same ballpark as racism. Someone doesn't chose to be black or white, so by that virtue any criticism of them on that basis is completely irrational, however people do chose to be religious (lolz or do they? ) so to me they are fair game.

 

[Killswitch]

I'm not.

 

[Azurus]

It's not usually a case of "turning" to religion...I'd expect that the number of people who "find" religion is vanishingly small compared to the number who were brought up with it. I'd expect that a great number of religious people don't even realise that there's an option.

People today have huge horizons, but it's not long ago that people who lived in a town or village believed that they would grow up, work, marry and die in that village. Moving away was a dream...not something that would ever be an option. In the same way, people born into a religious community don't realise that NOT being religious is a possibility, let alone something to aspire to.

Let me clarify 'turn to religion'.

People brought up in a semi religious environment generally believe what they are told to a certain age. At this age, usually around 16, there are people (like me) who revert back to being an atheist (of course all children are born atheists) and others who feel the need for greater meaning so stick with religion, or become involved more seriously with it.

I don't mean 'find it' as come into it completely fresh.

 

[Mojo]

however people do chose to be religious (lolz or do they? ) so to me they are fair game.

Most people are indoctrinated into religion by their parents with help from their close social groups.

Ever heard of a Muslim family raising a Jewish child or a Jewish family rising a Christian child? These Kids don't have a choice, I have seen it described as child abuse and I would have to agree.
It's allowed though because it's religion.

 

[Killswitch]

Aye, talking is cool, opens new views and all, but getting all "christians are morons" "you're dumb for believing in viking gods", that's just racism class ignorance.

To be honest, it's all bollocks really. There are psychological and physiological differences between different races. It's NOT racist to assume that a black sprinter will be faster than a white one, for example. Same with sexism. From what I've read, it seems that, in general, Caucasians (and girls) cluster more closely around the centre of any given performance statistic than Blacks (and boys). This means that at the extremes of performance (VERY fast or VERY slow) you're likely to find black people and boys. Unfounded negative prejudice against someone based on physical characteristics is wrong, but that doesn't mean we're all the same. Deal with it.

Anyway, back on topic...you're assuming that being Religious or Atheist is the same as being White or Black. I don't happen to believe that's the case. I think that being an Atheist is an admirable quality and that being Religious isn't.

It's a commonly-used argument by dumb people that the "right" or "fair" position is in the middle of two opposed arguments...people need to realise that's it's possible for one side to just be plain wrong. It's not wrong to discriminate against Child Molesters, is it? We don't say "some people rape women and some don't...so let's protect both of their rights equally". No-one wants to advocate the rights of burglars.

 

[Azurus]

Most people are indoctrinated into religion by their parents with help from their close social groups.

Ever heard of a Muslim family raising a Jewish child or a Jewish family rising a Christian child? These Kids don't have a choice, I have seen it described as child abuse and I would have to agree.
It's allowed though because it's religion.

I can understand in the case of children, i was mainly referring to adults.

 

[Heta]

every adult have been a child...

 

[Mojo]

I can understand in the case of children, i was mainly referring to adults.

Well I reckon more people opt out of religion in adulthood than opt in. I bet most that opt in are after something though.

 

[Azurus]

every adult have been a child...

And we all believed in Santa at one point, should we take adults who still do seriously because they were once a child?

 

[Sharma]

Hmmm. I was brought up in a sort of religious environment in the way that my grandparents on my mothers side are christian and my primary school used to do a lot of the "If you don't believe in god, you're going to hell" sort of thing.

Hell they even called my parents in for a talk when I got to about year 3 and I said "I don't believe in this, what's the point?".

Even though this thread has pretty much flew straight off the main topic in question, i'll add my 2p into the new topic.

Each to their own.

I don't mind what people believe as long as they don't attempt to restrict me or force it on me.

Calling people who are religious, morons is ignorant really beyond any comprehension. Yes, you may not believe it in yourself, however everyone has something they believe in, whether it involves a higher being or not.

I don't think you'd appreciate someone walking up to, taking something you feel very strongly about and calling you a fucking idiot for it?

Yes you can say "But I won't care", I can guarantee most christians won't either unless they're the American "GAAAAWD AAAAAALMIIIGHTAAAY" types (People publically take the piss out of jesus on a regular basis). Still doesn't detract from the fact that the only moron there is going to be YOU.

I like my way of life, being an Atheist to me means I haven't got anything holding me back from what I want to do, HOWEVER this doesn't mean I don't have morales.

If believing in a religion makes someones life happy and they think they're living life in the correct way, well then more power to them, i'm going to enjoy my life in my way.

Just because a person is religious, doesn't nescessarily mean they're thick by default.

 

[old.Tohtori]

People above who took upon the "race" thing, i didn't mean "people who hate religious people are like racists", i said the ignorance is in the same ballpark.

Killswitch: "Anyway, back on topic...you're assuming that being Religious or Atheist is the same as being White or Black. I don't happen to believe that's the case. I think that being an Atheist is an admirable quality and that being Religious isn't."

I don't assume that, hopefully that's clear now, what i'm also not saying is that you shouldn't have your opinion on things.

BUT...BIG but...you are NOT allowed to get "ignorant" or "insulting" because of it.

That's like me calling people who eat beans in the morning morons and sheep and waste of life.

Over-judging and insulting people because of THEIR way of life is never, EVER right.(keep the "so you're saying child molestors are cool" dumba** comments out)

 

[Mojo]

Each to their own.

People who believe in Viking Gods, Buddhism, Aliens, life after death, dragons witches, warlocks and fairies as well as Atheists, agnostics and general non believers are very much into letting each to their own and quite happy to live and let live.

But the Main religious groups are somewhat fucking it up for everyone, they have and are causing all kinds of shit for the groups mentioned above because they are sticking their noses in, dictate policy and going to great lengths to eliminate the opposition.

The problem is if you let one believe you have to let all believe so I and many other people find myself in a position where you have to say enough is enough your "Beliefs" are really really affecting my life and the lives of others and I now feel obliged to stand up and say something.

And what I have to say is basically this

"You are fighting over something and persecuting people in the name of something that no one can prove exits, or has ever seen, or has ever spoken too who could by all accounts resolve every issue man has in a single afternoon just by showing up. Get a fucking grip people, enough is enough already we have had thousands of years of bullshit based on these and other beliefs and yet people still want me and expect me to respect it and entertain these myths, what the fuck!"

And as for apparent atheists respecting these beliefs I would ask, why do you respect something that by your own self labelling you have determined to be a complete and utter lie?

 

[Heta]

As I guess you could call me an Atheist, I don't really respect other peoples beliefs, nor do I disrespect them, I simply just don't give a fuck about what they think, I know what I know and I like myself for who I am, that's enough for me.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Free will is an ilusion, we're driven by many things. Be it god, nature, reproductive instinct, social interests and so on.

I am with Freud and I am a strong believer of sublimation.

 

[Heta]

depends on how you define free will tho

 

[Mojo]

Free will is an ilusion, we're driven by many things. Be it god, nature, reproductive instinct, social interests and so on.

Going on that free will is impossible to achieve so a pretty pointless phrase as you want to factor in things beyond anyone's control.

I am going to levitate right now, oh I cant, I have no free will, damn physics screwing up my free will again.

It depends on what you take for the meaning, and to over complicate it and turn it into a philosophical debate is a pointless waste of time as has been proved already.

 

[liloe]

Going on that free will is impossible to achieve so a pretty pointless phrase as you want to factor in things beyond anyone's control.

I am going to levitate right now, oh I cant, I have no free will, damn physics screwing up my free will again.

It depends on what you take for the meaning, and to over complicate it and turn it into a philosophical debate is a pointless waste of time as has been proved already.

Uh? Where did Manisch mention the law of physics?

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Going on that free will is impossible to achieve so a pretty pointless phrase as you want to factor in things beyond anyone's control.

I am going to levitate right now, oh I cant, I have no free will, damn physics screwing up my free will again.

It depends on what you take for the meaning, and to over complicate it and turn it into a philosophical debate is a pointless waste of time as has been proved already.

Fuck off to somewhere else then if it's a pointless waste of time for you.

Thanks.

Your example is quite neat btw.