Beleif vs. Non-Beleif

[noblok]

We're not discussing the hippiedingdong versions of faith. The majority of believers believe in the God thats in the bible who will kill you if you live in a city where men hump eachother. Perhaps they dont believe in what the bible says (gays are sinners etc) but the concept of God is the same as it is in the bible.

Not the majority of the people I know and I wouldn't call them wannabesmartboy hippies. Anyway, it doesn't matter. We are discussing these versions of faith as well, because you didn't make any exceptions: you called all believers ignorant. I'd agree that the people who take the Bible literally are silly, but I'd respect someone who has a more nuanced belief. The kind of belief William Desmond writes about is rather intersting for example.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Seriously man, there is a time and place for everything and here is not it. The best way to make yourself look silly is to claim to be an expert on something, and then display such ignorance that would put you in danger of no one ever taking you seriously.... Guess what you just did?

So care to explain that one?


Im guessing you're religious?

 

[old.Tohtori]

I was planning on staying off this subject, as it's not that flameproof, but honestly Gorbachioo, even if you don't personally believe in something, or believe in not believing(ironic), it's not a "get out of jail free" card for calling others names, dishing out judgement or calling people names. Quite rude names at that.

Me, personally, believe that religion offers more then "a god in the sky", or gods in my situation, it offers ways to live, and more often then once, those principles of life are what faith is about.

If that particular religion has a figure, or figures, that help concentrate on those good facts(most religions have VERY good guidelines), then why would it be a bad thing to believe in it.

Personally i'm a norse(many names for it) religion believer, which is more towards the ways of life and general beliefs on issues, then about this god and that.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Santa Claus is a good thing isnt it? ;o Makes little kids behave better. But that doesnt make it true.

And theres alot more to most religions than just the "good" rules.


And well to be honest, if you're willing to let a 2000 year old collection of fairy tales rule your life then you're a goddamn moron and i truly hope that this is something we can all agree on ;O

 

[old.Tohtori]

Santa Claus is a good thing isnt it? ;o Makes little kids behave better. But that doesnt make it true.

And theres alot more to most religions than just the "good" rules.


And well to be honest, if you're willing to let a 2000 year old collection of fairy tales rule your life then you're a goddamn moron and i truly hope that this is something we can all agree on ;O

Well, no we can't, 'cause we're not all in your belief.

I believe in what i believe, and it's a bit more older then 2000 years, but it gives you no right to call me names.

You can have your opinion, but don't be insulting(forum sniping is different) about it.

 

[Overdriven]

I'm just pissed there are no dinosaurs.

 

[Punishment]

if you are actually serious then you are laughably uneducated. anarchism is the complete and utter opposite of anysuch "backward moral code".

Thats what i wrote ... Anarchy = Not following Moral codes (Law of the Jungle etc)

Also less personal insults ... you dont know jack about me , if you cant make your point without trying to browbeat someone then your point is a poor one

 

[Punishment]

where did you get this bullshit from?

i have no faith in any being yet im -

not alone. i have family and many close friends.
not afraid. im afraid of rollercoasters, is that because i dont believe in god?
not weak. i have strong will.
not helpless.

i am -
all that i can be upto this point in my life. im studying my 2nd yr in a degree im the fitest and healthiest ive ever been. i have friends all around me etc.

again, wherre did you get your bullshit from?

Its not bullshit its my opinion ... Why are some people so negative about having faith in something they cannot measure/analyse , oh well i made my point , you made yours but no reason to be so dismissive of another person's PoV ... maybe with afew more years under your belt you will come to understand the value of having ''Faith'' in something that you cant prove exists .

 

[crispy]

Its not bullshit its my opinion ... Why are some people so negative about having faith in something they cannot measure/analyse , oh well i made my point , you made yours but no reason to be so dismissive of another person's PoV ... maybe with afew more years under your belt you will come to understand the value of having ''Faith'' in something that you cant prove exists .

Well imo the world is flat :>

You know you are actually attacking non-religious people by your ealier statement.

First your statement is completely false since i can point out so many happy etc etc people who are not religious. So it might be your pov but its certainly without any hold in the real world which makes you deluded.

 

[Bugz]

Well arent they ignorant then? Would you "discuss your views in a constructive manner" with someone who believes in easter bunny or santa claus? No you wouldnt. So why should it be any different with religion? Afterall whats the difference? (there is none)

Religion is stupidity and ignorance. The harmful kind too.

Define religion for us please?

Maybe the fact religion doesn't have one fixed meaning but has several, each seen in a different view by a different person?

Fuck off out of this forum - we don't need anyone ignorant like you here.

 

[eksdee]

maybe with afew more years under your belt you will come to understand the value of having ''Faith'' in something that you cant prove exists .

spoken like a the true cop-out merchants all religious cattle are. i actually laughed out loud when i read this. hilarious.

 

[Azurus]

Define religion for us please?

Maybe the fact religion doesn't have one fixed meaning but has several, each seen in a different view by a different person?

Fuck off out of this forum - we don't need anyone ignorant like you here.

He makes a good point, religion doesn't deserve special treatment, it shouldn't even be taken seriously tbh.

 

[Bugz]

He makes a good point, religion doesn't deserve special treatment, it shouldn't even be taken seriously tbh.

Define religion.

 

[liloe]

So Liloe you believe that he stopped the sun to prevent the day passing by? (You know it moves only around itself and the Milky way, right?

Why not?

And no contradictions? Did you actually read it?

From A to Z, some parts multiple times.

God gave 10 basic laws, one of them was "Thou shalt not kill"
Few chapters later , Jeremiah, the messenger of god massacres 300 priests of Bhaal just cause they belonged to another religion. Which is later praised and perfectly normaluke:

Actually the correct translation would be not to murder. Also the priests kinda defied God, saying that Bhaal was the stronger deity, which proved to be wrong.

Where was your god when 6 million jews were killed in the Holocaust? (many of them were religious).

I kinda waited for that argument =) And where was he when the big wave hit Asia, where is he when earthquakes happen etc. etc.

But you could also say he was there when the Cold-War didn't become WW3, he was there when the Cuba-crisis didn't explode. Sometimes we have to eat the shit we produce, sometimes others have to eat the shit we produce, but you can't put the blame on God for all that happens =)

How do explain that according to the bible the Earth is only ~5800 years old, while in reality it is 4+ billions?

Living things are that old, the Bible itself states nothing about the age of earth itself, but I get your argument.

The point is, that the c14 method you're refering to isn't even accurate. Let's assume I tell you that person X is 5 years younger than I am. Now let's say you have a wild guess I'm 30, so person X is ofc 25...the point is, you have no idea how old I really am and thus the rest is an assumption =) In the same way, the c14 method assumes that a certain value existed at a given time and based on that you calculate the rest (Saw an interesting TV-program about that and my biology-teacher back in school said the same thing, so it has to be right somewhere I'd reckon)

Yet again please explain me how can you have light without stars? (in a world that has no chemical reactions yet, cause light was created before the physical materials)

How the skies (athmosphere) were created before the Earth? What gravitation held it?

and I can give a lot more examples like that.

Where does it say that chemical reactions and gravitation didn't exist? =)

EDIT: also respect to you for keeping a friendly tone instead of going to random insulting like some other peeps here did.....I also think I've never given out so much rep in one day =)

 

[aika]

The hebrew calendar starts at world's creation and it is ~5,800th year now (I know that cause I live in Israel)

This has gone offtopic a bit, but well its all has to do with belief, I dont think I can convince you that religion is something that humans invented to explain certain things (like Death, Begining of the Universe,etc), and neither can you convince about its divinity

I can see what you mean, I know that many outstanding physicists, especially in the Quantum Physics field feel that there's some reason and something very special about the physic laws, i.e: it looks like they are created precisely to support life.

For example if the charge/weight of an electron was only ~1% different, there could be no matter as we know it.
But it can be explained in a quite complex theory that basically says that if the universe was different, we werent here to ask that.

I just dont like many parts of the bible, especially ones that promote violence,slavery, disregard women and basically promote genocide of some nations.

 

[Overdriven]

The hebrew calendar starts at world's creation and it is ~5,800th year now (I know that cause I live in Israel)

Once again, explain dinosaurs.

- How would THEY know the theory of time, that far back.
- How would THEY judge when the world was created?

Can't be done.

 

[aika]

Once again, explain dinosaurs.

- How would THEY know the theory of time, that far back.
- How would THEY judge when the world was created?

Can't be done.

I'm not sure how it was calculated, I think it was done by the ages of certain ppl in the Bible.
In my personal opinion Earth was created from a gascloud that emerged from our Sun 4+ billion years ago

 

[crispy]

I'm not sure how it was calculated, I think it was done by the ages of certain ppl in the Bible.
In my personal opinion Earth was created from a gascloud that emerged from our Sun 4+ billion years ago

Hmm that thing really doesnt have any thing to do with opinion

 

[liloe]

I just dont like many parts of the bible, especially ones that promote violence,slavery, disregard women and basically promote genocide of some nations.

I guess I can't convince you aswell, but I can assure you that the things you mention are often read in a way to please the reader, which is a point that I really don't like myself.
The Bible clearly states, that men and women are exactly equal (P.S. and everyone quoting Paul on this fails to see, that Paul is writing about specific women in one specific church who caused problems)

 

[Golly]

......need weed for this one......

although, just finishing off reading a book (one I mentioned in the books thread etc) and its heavily based around evolution, and offers the quantum theory regarding everything/matter

its very intrigueing, and granted its probably not overly accurate, being a novel and all, but I will definitely be picking up a few "basic" books on quantum physics and having a looksie into what alternative rule sets are thought to exist regarding matter / genetics

we'l find the true answer eventually!

o and the bible, in my eyes, its a collection of stories meant to teach more than be scrutinised, its an aid to everyone in the world, a morality checker

its bollocks from a scientific point of view

 

[eksdee]

teh baibel:

 

[liloe]

teh baibel:

Yes, we got what you think now and we all fully understand, that you contribution to this thread was gone after your first post, as you don't even bother to answer my question *sigh* the baiting has begun

 

[eksdee]

well it is quite patently pointless wasting time and braincells on people who's only argument to anything is interpretation or 'faith', you babble on about facts and yet you have none. you can not prove anything in the bible, it's translations and countless reprints amongst the fact that most of it was written hundreds of years after the time of 'jesus' put paid to that.

 

[liloe]

well it is quite patently pointless wasting time and braincells on people who's only argument to anything is interpretation or 'faith', you babble on about facts and yet you have none. you can not prove anything in the bible, it's translations and countless reprints amongst the fact that most of it was written hundreds of years after the time of 'jesus' put paid to that.

Look.....your last posts all look the same, you don't care to answer any questions directed towards you and your general unfriendliness is getting boring, so unless you actually have something new to say, why not say nothing at all?

I put quite some time and effort in my answers and if you don't care what I write, there's no need to post "it's all crap and you have no facts" for the Xth time, while completely ignoring what I wrote.

I don't expect that everyone takes my side and in fact I don't mind being the only one on my side, but I like when people at least take the time to read/listen what I say if they want to take part in the discussion.

I hope you come up with something better next time, cause else I'm not even bothering to reply to some flamebaiting.

 

[eksdee]

it's not flamebaiting at all, because the entire argument against religion - for me at least - is based upon the fact that it seems to be a completely absurd thing to believe in something without question, that can not be proved.

thus, i am asking you for your facts. prove to me that religion is a necessary and believeable concept. no matter what religion, i put it to you that you can not give me a single solid fact to prove the existence of a higher deity.

to be good, just and whatever else is a human instinct, not one invoked and expected of us by a god. no gods, no masters - we are all human, and all equal. the moment we begin to question that is the beginning of xenophobia, racism, homophobia - some of the most vile and shamefull aspects of the society in which we live. unfortunately, most certainly in the case of racism, homophobia, sexism, xenophobia amongst other such prejudices - religions (as a broad aspect) are all too guilty in promoting this hate and fear of other people. to me, this is the greatest crime of faith and religion, and i will accept no argument to say that religion does not promote and incite these things because it is simply unquestionable that it does.

as i'm pretty sure i posted before, i have little or no interest in the actions of others, be they faith-motivated or otherwise, unless they have an impact on their own lives. i would much rather someone go to church and be happy, than have no faith and be miserable. i simply, personally, see no logical, acceptable reason to submit oneself to a higher deity that one can not prove to exist.

i'd like to point out that while i realise my posts are inflammatory, it is because i am quite hot headed about things i am passionate about. i realise it probably doesn't come across on this forum, specifically my posts in this thread, but i am extremely well-educated and i spend a lot of time researching things whether it be because i like or dislike them (for want of a better phrase), i just find it all too easy to rant and rave on a forum... because well, it just is.

edit: as an aside, i have work tomorrow, night

 

[Huntingtons]

Ah well =) I don't deny that I believe what the Bible says =)

I have to admit, that faith is a big part of religion cause there are things you can't simply explain =)

well, you're using the bible to expain it so its explain and there isnt unexplainable? (by the bible i mean god) 50 years ago DNA and alot of human development was unexplainable - now it is. those people who said it was just gods hand because it was unexplainable are now wrong. can you assure me you wont be?
@ the light part in liloes previous post: but in xxx bc or after christ birth there was no such thing as light without fire or sun - your argument is hardly valid in any way. but now it wasnt god who wrote there was light so its quite possible its wrong, no?
(and aika, its a false belief that the bible was written by god unlike the Qu'ran, which was)

well basically i believe religion to be a hoax but i dont think religion should or could be discussed contra science

I guess I can't convince you aswell, but I can assure you that the things you mention are often read in a way to please the reader, which is a point that I really don't like myself.
The Bible clearly states, that men and women are exactly equal (P.S. and everyone quoting Paul on this fails to see, that Paul is writing about specific women in one specific church who caused problems)

what about homosexuality in the bible? these people cannot come to heaven - in the bible its not fobidden to think homosexual but it is strongly forbidden to act homosexual

 

[Jeremiah]

it's not flamebaiting at all, because the entire argument against religion - for me at least - is based upon the fact that it seems to be a completely absurd thing to believe in something without question, that can not be proved.

Thats why it is called faith. Without faith you'll never understand, and with faith, you never need an explanation. Thats how faith works for all things.

thus, i am asking you for your facts. prove to me that religion is a necessary and believeable concept. no matter what religion, i put it to you that you can not give me a single solid fact to prove the existence of a higher deity.

Ok, lets remember we are talking about faith-based religions not based on fact. I doubt we'll ever prove there is a God, because least of all, the second we prove there is a God, the freewill to make the choice to believe is taken away. Theres steps towards belief based on fact, such as treating the New Testiment in the Bible as a historical document, and more philosophical approaches (such as the Argument by Design) but I cant ever see there being a solid proof of any deity. Remember, fact and faith are both two seperate things, but are equally important. Science requires both, as does religion =)

 

[Mojo]

Go fuck yourself.

Less crying on the internet, you look like a fag.

 

[Killswitch]

Okay...if you lot think I'm reading all that waffle, you'd be so very, very wrong. However, I do think Kir made some interesting points.

First of all, I'd be interested to know what's wrong with being "just as good as a rock"? The same ideal cosmological conditions that allowed the development of intelligent life (and Americans) also allowed the development of rocks, water and professional footballers. Without mineral-rich ecosystems filled with these "lower" entities, there would be no humans around with our highly-developed neurosis and our need to feel superior to something, even if it's just a piece of sandstone.

The whole question of pre-determinism is a very interesting one. First things first, I don't believe that some cosmic Creator has set everything in the Universe on His endless path and that we're all just some creepy puppet show. Any system, be it a human being, a computer or a vending machine has inputs and outputs. Whatever comes out depends on just 2 things;

1. What went in
2. What the system 'does'

It is true that the behaviour of a human being is based purely on these 2 factors. Of course, every human "system" is different and processes every input differently. Also, humans have the ability to consider the impact of their actions and also to hold a very complex (and often highly inconsistent) ethical model in their heads. This means that the same inputs will not produce the same response every time, with time, mood and context being highly important in determining the outcome.

In essence, the human "system" is a machine with an infinite number of possible states (for all practical purposes). We have control over those states, although our application of that control will depend ultimately on how we processed inputs earlier in our lives. I believe that this points to a misunderstanding of the term "Free Will". Humans are limited in their actions by physical laws, by cultural laws, by etiquette and by our own moral compasses. Every choice we make is by definition based on earlier experiences. We do not have and will never have "Free Will" if by that you mean "the ability to freely choose our actions" because our choice will be driven by who we are and who we are is a constantly changing neurotic mess of emotions, experiences, misfiring synapses and moral dilemmas.

This doesn't mean that all future actions are set for all time based on chemical impulses...Chaos Theory alone would discount that. It is true that everything effects everything else (the famous Butterfly Effect) and that your actions are a result of chemical impulses in the brain based on inputs to your body.

Free Will in the sense I mean it is the fact that we have the ability to ignore these inputs if we want and that our actions aren't determined reflexively (if I see Thing A I will do this...if I see Thing B I will do this) but instead are determined by layer upon layer of complexity within us. Our "self" is an amazing thing, much more impressive, magical and worthy of awe than some "soul" granted to us by someone else. It's a mass of filters, logic, feedback loops, sensors and outputs which block, enhance, alter, process and balance all the data flooding into us every second and somehow turns it into thoughts, emotions and actions that define "us" as individuals.

I think assuming God or a "soul" cheapens the incredible process by which we become "us". I also think that a lot of people need to think about what they mean by "Free Will".

If you got to the end of that...thanks for reading!!

 

[Mojo]

If you got to the end of that...thanks for reading!!

Your welcome, but I'm not sure what your point is.

It seems that this is coming down to your definition of free will which you have over complicated. Just because we are guided by experience doesn't mean it limits our choices, after all anyone of us could right now grab a knife and go kill people.

Experience doesn't limit free will, experience helps you make better decisions, it doesn't limit people, it frees people from limitations.

Your experiences tell you people get pissed off if you go and stab people up, and our society has introduced mechanisms to deal with such people, that doesn't stop you from making the choice to go on a rampage though. Your experience though tell you you will get locked up by others for a length of time determined by others, now that is what will screw up your ability to make decisions of your own free will and you know it so you don't do it.