Beleif vs. Non-Beleif

[Heta]

pre determinism is more believable than a god imo.

reason being it actually makes sense.

no it doesn't, but then again neither do god, in my point of view

only thing I can possibly believe is logic

 

[tris-]

Without ''Faith'' people feel alone/afraid/weak/helpless and will not strive to be all they can be or go out of their way to help anyone but themselves (Law of the Jungle etc)

where did you get this bullshit from?

i have no faith in any being yet im -

not alone. i have family and many close friends.
not afraid. im afraid of rollercoasters, is that because i dont believe in god?
not weak. i have strong will.
not helpless.

i am -
all that i can be upto this point in my life. im studying my 2nd yr in a degree im the fitest and healthiest ive ever been. i have friends all around me etc.

again, wherre did you get your bullshit from?

 

[Heta]

find faith and have endless fun in the rollercoasters!!!

 

[tris-]

no it doesn't, but then again neither do god, in my point of view

only thing I can possibly believe is logic

'pre determinism without a divine being' has a lot of logic if you care to think about it enough.

i also personally think ive had certain events in my life which if i follow back the paths, they could not of occurred in any other way.

 

[Marc]

If you dont believe in god, you will go to hell with the rest of the Heathens, whilst us believers will be sat in heaven, with St Pete, Jesus and all the angle hoes, supping on champagne and eating caviar.

 

[Heta]

but I don't care about it, there is only one thing that decides what I will do, and that is me, nothing predetermined about that

 

[Heta]

If you dont believe in god, you will go to hell with the rest of the Heathens, whilst us believers will be sat in heaven, with St Pete, Jesus and all the angle hoes, supping on champagne and eating caviar.

that's scary, but as we don't believe in god, we don't believe in heaven or hell either so its a very much empty threat

 

[tris-]

but I don't care about it, there is only one thing that decides what I will do, and that is me, nothing predetermined about that

i would like to believe its true but im afraid to me, it doesnt make any sense

 

[Heta]

that's why things like this should not be discussed over forums, specially OT/daoc forums...

 

[dub]

its not free will , its not pre-determined , its not genetics , its not the environment , its all of them together , wich makes it messy and human.

fail to see what faith has to do with complex systems

 

[tris-]

that's why things like this should not be discussed over forums, specially OT/daoc forums...

why not exactly?
i dont understand/accept freewill in the same way you dont understand/accept pre determined futures or gods etc.

 

[Mojo]

Try telling that to the drug addicts and alcoholics in 'religious' rehab centres that are taking back their life. Or those who have went through divorce, both parents and children, and have repaired relationships through church counciling. Or those usually on the edge of society that no one would touch, until one day someone invites them to church (or other religious meeting) and they dont feel like a loner anymore. Not to mention the huge amount of work with the homeless, the poor and the starving. For all the evils that 'followers' of religion do in the world, theres a lot of good they do as well =)

Maybe we should tell the druggies alcoholics that they have been targeted by the churches recruitment drive because they are sad lonely, desperate, vulnerable and more likely to be swayed their ideas.

Its not god these people find, it's the company of others, that company could be anyone willing to be a friend religious or not.
You don't need God to be good.

 

[Heta]

why not exactly?
i dont understand/accept freewill in the same way you dont understand/accept pre determined futures or gods etc.

Having a discussion is all about having a possibility to somehow reach a goal, at least that's how I see it. A topic like this where people are so dead set on what there believes are is rather futile

but then again, I have poor social skills, I have a hard time feeling emphaty and little understanding why people need social interaction

 

[tris-]

well im not dead set in my ways, im open to views and whatnot. its just that i cant comprehend any other way except for a pre determined future.

 

[Heta]

well, yes its predetermined in a way..

mankind will destroy itself

 

[Jeremiah]

Maybe we should tell the druggies alcoholics that they have been targeted by the churches recruitment drive because they are sad lonely, desperate, vulnerable and more likely to be swayed their ideas.

Its not god these people find, it's the company of others, that company could be anyone willing to be a friend religious or not.
You don't need God to be good.

I completely agree, theres loads more non-religious charity works than religious based ones. I'm not saying these people find their lives turned around by finding God, but they find support from those who believe in God and perform these charity works on His behalf - if you know what I mean =)

 

[Mojo]

I completely agree, theres loads more non-religious charity works than religious based ones. I'm not saying these people find their lives turned around by finding God, but they find support from those who believe in God and perform these charity works on His behalf - if you know what I mean =)

So Religious charity workers are doing gods work, yet the non religious ones do it because they want to.

So non Religious charity workers are much better people really.

Us Atheist are actually much better people then religious folk too, we don't need any motivation to be good, we just are. Religious people claim to be good because its gods will, gods law etc, that kinda suggest that if they didn't have a god they would be complete bastards, although some are complete bastards anyway I know.

So my point being, anyone who does stuff in the name of a god is just dumping the onus onto someone else (in the case of bad shit) and in the case of good deeds, giving credit to an imaginary figure, suggesting maybe that they are not really a willing party to the good deed therefore not actually good themselves.

My Conclusion : religious people are complete bastards.

Actually I know some very nice Christians, it just annoys me that they give god the credit for being so damn nice, these people should take the credit themselves and dump the religion, it wont stop them from being nice.............................or will it.

 

[tris-]

good point re: doing good mojo.

 

[crispy]

Faith is what binds us together as human beings

Without it we are nothing but individuals with only individual and selfish interests .

The only thing that will result in no ''Worship Figure'' being in play is people only worrying about #1 also know as the ''Kim Jong Il'' effect .

Without ''Faith'' people feel alone/afraid/weak/helpless and will not strive to be all they can be or go out of their way to help anyone but themselves (Law of the Jungle etc)

''Faith'' has done so much more good than bad in the world imo

Have you lived without faith and worship? You know youre actually saying that people like me have no compassion for other people. Just because YOU cant be good without being told to be so why should other people not be able to?

Remember man invented religion and therefore all that relegion represents - good or bad.

Back on the original topic:
You are thinking of something like the 'illusion of free will' vs 'free will' right? The illusion is that we seem to be able to make choices, but we will never know whether we could have chosen something else, whereas real free will assumes you can.

To answer this you must answer this question instead. If the illusion is true, then there must be some equation where you put in all your variables and then can get one and only one answer (probably a set of new variables) out with a given set of variables... But is this possible? And how precise does it have to be?

If we go into the physics of things, especially quantum mechanics, then there are some things that make it hard to see the 'illusion of free will'. For example, you cant know all your variables at precise values according to the uncertainty principle. Basicly you can have the 100% precise location of a particle, but then you know nothing about its energy. Another quantum principle is that a small enough particle can actually be different places in space at the same time, which means that your equation is not a one input one output type of equation.

 

[crispy]

So Religious charity workers are doing gods work, yet the non religious ones do it because they want to.

So non Religious charity workers are much better people really.

Us Atheist are actually much better people then religious folk too, we don't need any motivation to be good, we just are. Religious people claim to be good because its gods will, gods law etc, that kinda suggest that if they didn't have a god they would be complete bastards, although some are complete bastards anyway I know.

10% of americans are atheists yet only 0,1% of prison inmates are atheists

 

[Mojo]

10% of americans are atheists yet only 0,1% of prison inmates are atheists

lol, that's interesting.

However, prisoners turning to God isn't new, parole board anyone?

 

[aika]

So Liloe you believe that he stopped the sun to prevent the day passing by? (You know it moves only around itself and the Milky way, right?

And no contradictions? Did you actually read it?
God gave 10 basic laws, one of them was "Thou shalt not kill"
Few chapters later , Jeremiah, the messenger of god massacres 300 priests of Bhaal just cause they belonged to another religion. Which is later praised and perfectly normaluke:

Where was your god when 6 million jews were killed in the Holocaust? (many of them were religious).

How do explain that according to the bible the Earth is only ~5800 years old, while in reality it is 4+ billions?

Yet again please explain me how can you have light without stars? (in a world that has no chemical reactions yet, cause light was created before the physical materials)

How the skies (athmosphere) were created before the Earth? What gravitation held it?

and I can give a lot more examples like that.

 

[crispy]

Its gods will dont forget, he might have planned something great you know!

 

[gohan]

God is real

he talks to me

tells me to burn things

 

[Dukat]

God is real

he talks to me

tells me to burn things

like your avatar?

 

[Zede]

The bible was complied by a ruthless military dictator ( insert any roman emperor here) by the name of Constantine. Any gospels that did not fit with the militaristic view point of the Roman Empire were utterly dismissed, so basically the good stuff was left out

The Roman Empire just became the Roman Catholic Church, they figured guilt was a far easier way to control the world than fear of a sword !

 

[Cerb]

Im pretty sure ive posted about thin before but i belive...the main reason being similar to waht other people have posted.....if you go way bak to the start something must have happend to spark it all off...this is my belief....even for those who dont belive and cant understand why others do...its kinda like what punishment said...itsw called anticedent interiour grace.

this is just a fancy way of saying that most people (not all tris) need to belive in something.....htis is mostly because we fear death and would otherwise feel insignificant...so these people might belive something that is in your opinion absouloute bolloks...so what?....if it helps them then whatsx the harm...now i know what your going to say next...wwhat about people who are religous and use religon to do horrible things...well like i said the USE religion as a cover for what they would relly do even if religon wasnt there.

next the point people always make about the 7 day theory......its like a parable...not really meant to be takn e tottaly literaly...rather as a way of sayin that god made everything...even if it was in a darwinian manor

my final point is againt the point made "the world would be better without religon"......i simply refer you to the sp episode "go god go"!

 

[Sharma]

I think we're sort of derailing from the initial post here.

The discussion is not so much about God/higher beings/religion etc, so cut it out!

I think the main point Kir was getting at was not so much "God governs our actions" but rather do our lives follow a generally predetermined script soto speak, as in a slight deviation from it within our own power of free will can cause a ripple effect to the rest of the world, whereas some actions can cause a gigantic wave throughout the world and affect many peoples lives (9/11 anyone?).

I've been running into many experiences as of late which have made me think that, the typical thought is generally "No matter what sort of action I take, i'm still going up against the same consequences of my actions".

Throughout my life i've experienced things being things (in a figurative sense) being thrown at me. You all have probably came up to an opportunity of decision you've had to make and so far down the line you've thought "What if?".

Realistically if you're going to take this further down the line you realise any thinkable situation is a possibility of some form or another, hell even if you think "The last thing that could possibily happen to me at work could be a horny camel bursting into the room and having it's way with me", it could be possible due to the actions of another entity.

I do have a subtle feeling that my actions can be predetermined, i've had some dreams before where the next day i've ended up acting out those dreams to an extent, a sort of clairvoyance sort of thing.

I do feel theres something there, but as an entity such as a God or other greater being controlling my actions, I don't think it's *quite* like that.

I feel theres an influence as opposed to a direct "pulling of the strings" thing.

 

[Dukat]

my final point is againt the point made "the world would be better without religon"......i simply refer you to the sp episode "go god go"!

Here here!! Totally agree! The last thing we need is a war against beavers!!

 

[Heta]

next the point people always make about the 7 day theory.....

I've heard that creating the world in 7 days thing actually is a miss translation into modern language, as the word they translate day actually isn't a day, but a period of time, that is the world was created in 7 periods of time according to the bible

and I still don't believe in god btw