Rant Bacon Flu?

[old.Tohtori]

Bollocks Toht. The scientists didn't know. Flu tends to be not severe first time out with a double hit, the second of which can be catastrophically different.

Nobody knew. Best to be prepared.

Wasn't being the term here. I answered his claim that "you don't have the medical background to make claims like that.", when i said that this WASN'T a spanish flu repeat.

I'm not disputing that the goverment was prepared or that it should be.

And that's as far as i'm willing to go about this back and forth repetition.

 

[old.Tohtori]

But for a closing statement(without too much detail and how i would change things);

Bunch of overhyped bullcrap, overblown by media and ultimately(by hindsight) not worth the money spent, EVEN if it's good to know the governing peeps are on top of things when it comes to pandemics.

Sound about right?

 

[cHodAX]

But for a closing statement(without too much detail and how i would change things);

Bunch of overhyped bullcrap, overblown by media and ultimately(by hindsight) not worth the money spent, EVEN if it's good to know the governing peeps are on top of things when it comes to pandemics.

Sound about right?

Worth every penny and alot more. The measures taken stopped a rampant spread which in turn minimised the chances of a mutation that might have had to potential to wipe out the entire species or at least devastate global trade to the point where 100's of millions more die and the world as we know it changes forever.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Worth every penny and alot more. The measures taken stopped a rampant spread which in turn minimised the chances of a mutation that might have had to potential to wipe out the entire species or at least devastate global trade to the point where 100's of millions more die and the world as we know it changes forever.

Yeah...i'm out.

 

[cHodAX]

Yeah...i'm out.

Yep, for the count, out cold by a logic bomb to the chin.

 

[nath]

Yep, for the count, out cold by a logic bomb to the chin.

As if, logic has absolutely no power over Tohtori .

 

[old.Tohtori]

As if, logic has absolutely no power over Tohtori .

That's true, logic is just a human concoction to please the masses

No but seriously, i just don't agree(completely) and it's better to leave it at that then to start a 30 page round-a-bout argument of it.

EDIT: Yeah i just read what i wrote so shush!

 

[Scouse]

Bunch of overhyped bullcrap, overblown by media and ultimately(by hindsight) not worth the money spent, EVEN if it's good to know the governing peeps are on top of things when it comes to pandemics

In support of Toht (yes, shocking I know): Yep, sounds about right.

It was overhyped by the media and with hindsight not worth the money spent.

It is good to know government did the right thing for once.

 

[rynnor]

The main thing that wasnt predicted in the transmission model was the exceptionally cold winter.

Flu doesnt survive long outside a host in such conditions and the extreme weather effectively stopped transmission. It was a good winter for those vulnerable to infection because everything was at much lower levels than normal.

My mate down the road, his Mrs and 2 young kids all had it - the kids were pretty bad for 2-3days and overall were ill for more than a week - pretty nasty bug.

 

[cHodAX]

As I have said a number of times, it is the mutations of this highly virulent infection we need to be most worried about. It is those mutations that have the potential to be much much deadlier than the current virus we are seeing. The action of goverments minimised the spread and so minimised chances of a more deadly mutation. I don't care what anyone on here says because I have read far more informed opinion and spoken to a Phd in biomedical sciences on the subject, also I don't care how much it cost believe me it doesn't even add up to 0.01% of what something as deadly as Spanish flu would cost the global economy. This virus has that potential through mutation, infact it could be far far worse given the 'perfect storm' of conditions or anything close.

 

[fettoken]

It is weird don't you think, now that the pharma companies sold their vaccine, you dont hear a single word of it in the newspaper OR the news. Makes you think.. *puts on tinfoil hat*

 

[cHodAX]

It is weird don't you think, now that the pharma companies sold their vaccine, you dont hear a single word of it in the newspaper OR the news. Makes you think.. *puts on tinfoil hat*

If a second wave hits this coming autumn both you and I will be very glad to have access to those vast stocks of vaccine. Even if it doesn't hit that doesn't make it wasted money either, you might have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen but if you never need to use it that doesn't make it any the less worthwhile.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Pandemic preparedness is something the UK government has taken very seriously. Its not just about stocking some extra flu jabs. There's a whole infrastructure in place created by agreements between various companies and NHSDirect. There are response plans in place - possibly not perfect but certainly better than having nothing. I'd rather see an overspend than there be nothing in place.

In future years we can throttle back the response based on what we learn. This is pretty much the first time there has ever been a response on this scale so everyone is pretty much learning it. Make plans, put responses in place, measure the result, refine it.

EDIT: Yeah i just read what i wrote so shush!

Got to admit, I did wonder on this one

 

[Trem]

Pandemic preparedness is something the UK government has taken very seriously. Its not just about stocking some extra flu jabs. There's a whole infrastructure in place created by agreements between various companies and NHSDirect. There are response plans in place - possibly not perfect but certainly better than having nothing. I'd rather see an overspend than there be nothing in place.

In future years we can throttle back the response based on what we learn. This is pretty much the first time there has ever been a response on this scale so everyone is pretty much learning it. Make plans, put responses in place, measure the result, refine it.



Got to admit, I did wonder on this one

You say that but did you know that someone I know works for a company. They have a contract with MoD, they provide stuff for the troops in the middle east amongst other things. Anyway, our local Sainsburys warehouse was selected to be the local mortuary, you know, to fill with all the dead from the flu. Her company also sold thousands of mortuary boards to the government to put all the dead on.

The government over reacted on a mammoth scale and spent our money in the meantime.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

You say that but did you know that someone I know works for a company. They have a contract with MoD, they provide stuff for the troops in the middle east amongst other things. Anyway, our local Sainsburys warehouse was selected to be the local mortuary, you know, to fill with all the dead from the flu. Her company also sold thousands of mortuary boards to the government to put all the dead on.

The government over reacted on a mammoth scale and spent our money in the meantime.

The company I work for is part of the pandemic response.

So yeh. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Trem]

The company I work for is part of the pandemic response.

So yeh. I know what I'm talking about.

As do I.

Explain more please.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

If you really were part of the response, you'd already be aware that anything you could discuss to lend weight to what you say by posting it on a public forum would immediately make you unemployed since in all likelyhood it would breach employer / employee confidentiality.

So I take some of what you post with a bit of a Siberian salt mine.

And Trem, you just want to rant. So rant on. I already know about how supermarkets were potentially going to be used, its not breaking news and probably isn't to most others either. Its far from the only part of the potential worst-case scenario that was anticipated.

Personally, I'm just glad it wasn't needed. This time.

 

[Trem]

Supermarkets weren't meant to be used in our area it was a Sainsburys Warehouse.

I don't work there.

I had my rant at the beginning of this thread and nothing since has been a rant at all.

Edit - I have edited my posts to remove certain details after thinking about what you said Roo.

Also seeing as you *know* all about it can you explain which bit of what I said needs to be taken with a pinch of salt?

 

[Damini]

It's six of one, half a dozen of another. After the fact, does it look over blown? Yes. But at the beginning of a new strain of a virus that is particularly virulent, that has the potential to mutate easily, that is believed to have an unusually high mortality rate in Mexico, that copies the alarming pattern of striking the fit and healthy hardest, you have to throw everything into overdrive, especially when you understand how the second wave of these outbreaks is frequently more deadly than the first. You simply cannot afford to second guess these things, when the result of a bad decision could be millions dead - I'd far rather millions of pounds were squandered. Fuck it, how much money do we spend a year on telling idiots that they should eat vegetables? Or making green grocers not have certain scales? Throwing money at a pandemic is hardly money wasted either, as everything learnt will inform the response to the next outbreak.

I will say though that at the beginning it was very badly handled. I had swine flu before it was supposed to be out in the community, and was treated like I was mental for telling the NHS this. Back when it was still supposed to be just one guy back from holiday in Mexico, and then some kids at a school, I traveled on the underground, taught kids who were on Tamiflu because their siblings were exposed, worked at a school just 400m from a school that was quarantined, and got sick two days after. The NHS helpline wanted me to get tested, but the doctor I phoned up treated me like a drug seeking idiot (even though I didn't want Tamiflu, I just thought it was important for them to track the travel of the virus). I was told to just "carry on with my normal life" even though I warned that my normal life involved giving multiple talks at a school the next day. I canceled the talk, but went for a meal with my family despite feeling ropey because, you know, it was all in my head apparently.

Every single person at that table got sick. Every single one. You could set your watch by it. God knows who else at the restaurant got sick too. I phoned the NHS back to tell them, and again, nothing. It can't be swine flu. Unless you have spent prolonged time with a confirmed case, or have been to Mexico, IT SIMPLY CAN'T BE. Because flu checks your passport, and is only contagious after so many minutes have elapsed in the company of someone who is ill.

So yes, I support that money spent. However, I think that it was also handled very poorly, and was a massively wasted opportunity for watching how a virus like that truly spreads. They could have learnt a lot about the role of public transport, and virus transmission in the community, if they hadn't treated people like hypochondriac idiots in the beginning.

 

[DaGaffer]

Damini's house, yesterday:

 

[Scouse]

The government over reacted on a mammoth scale and spent our money in the meantime.

Nah, the government prepared for the worst but the worst didn't happen.

They could have learnt a lot about the role of public transport, and virus transmission in the community, if they hadn't treated people like hypochondriac idiots in the beginning.

Agreed. The only caveat to that is that a fuckload of hypochondriacs will have phoned up in a ratio of about 47 billion mentalists to 1 sensible Dams

 

[throdgrain]

I reckon it was probably space aliens

 

[Damini]

Agreed. The only caveat to that is that a fuckload of hypochondriacs will have phoned up in a ratio of about 47 billion mentalists to 1 sensible Dams

Yeah, and I get that, but I was in an area with confirmed cases, teaching groups of kids on Tamiflu due to exposure, next door to a school that was closed down, and got sick two days later (in line with the incubation period). Surely that should get me a little bit of headway over "I touched a banister and then I sneezed".

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah, and I get that, but I was in an area with confirmed cases, teaching groups of kids on Tamiflu due to exposure, next door to a school that was closed down, and got sick two days later (in line with the incubation period). Surely that should get me a little bit of headway over "I touched a banister and then I sneezed".

Still, to them, among the thousands of calls / day, you sound like another paranoid sneeze victim. Everyone has a sob story regarding how they MUST be infected with the death, surely you can see that.

Then again, IF they were tracking it, yoiu'd be treated the same "Carry on with your life, it's nothing" and then see what happens.

They need to fix their original way of handling it, not by stockpiling, but by making sure what kind of response is required. If they go all out against every sniffle that spreasd across a country-line, the whole thing will get screwed like a hotel owners female offspring.

 

[Damini]

Well, I wrote to an expert on flu pandemics after he wrote an article on how England was publishing misleading figures on flu infection rates here, told him my experience, and he wanted me to speak to an internationally respected journalist and get the story out, and said I had a very enlightened view point.

I wrote back to him and had a go for being sarcastic.

Turns out he was being genuine, and was seen as a leading world expert on the subject.

Trifle embarrassing.

I declined anyway. Didn't want to add to the hysteria about it all, and being patriotic didn't want to do anything that could have a negative impact on the UK - people were acting so crazy about it all that I didn't want to play any part, no matter how small, in making it worse. Also, too embarrassed to talk to him again

I wasn't asking for drugs. I wasn't asking even for a blood test. I just wanted them to know it had potentially traveled to Canterbury, so that if someone got really sick down here they might be better placed to treat them.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I wasn't asking for drugs. I wasn't asking even for a blood test. I just wanted them to know it had potentially traveled to Canterbury, so that if someone got really sick down here they might be better placed to treat them.

That's kinda like someone asking a woman in a bar if they can buy them a drink, it doesn't necessarily mean they want something, but 99/100 it'll be taken as such. Hell, women make assumptions about men for less, but i think you get my point.

Anyone calling NHS(or such) and who says anything oink related would get the standard deault response, no matter if they told they are spreading it deliberately

 

[Damini]

So what was the point of the helpline then? Just standard spin, which was pretty much my point. There was no attempt at containing the problem, just an attempt to be seen to be doing something. Not so much King Canute turning back the tide, as handing out Wellington Boots for when it didn't work.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So what was the point of the helpline then? Just standard spin, which was pretty much my point. There was no attempt at containing the problem, just an attempt to be seen to be doing something. Not so much King Canute turning back the tide, as handing out Wellington Boots for when it didn't work.

Exactly. Handled poorly, prepared well, waste of money.

Good planning needs good execution and they could've saved a lot more if they had tracked, acted and worked up to par with the preparation.

It's like owning that extinquisher in your kitchen, then throwing milk at a fire. Sure it might get the job done, but the extinquisher is a waste of money now.

 

[Pfy]

Toht.

The fire extinguisher was bought incase it was needed. To be prepared for the worst.

Much like vaccines were stockpiled INCASE it was needed. Your analogies are generally rubbish, much like the tripe you spout.

That said. My 1 year old was given Tamiflu after running a fever and being lethargic/achey (hard to tell with a baby really but hey) and I don't honestly think it was swine flu or that the Tamiflu was directly responsable for his getting better a couple of days later. That said I'm glad he had it and that it was inplace for him to have 'just incase'.


I personally think it would have been better to let the long term unemployed (2nd, 3rd generation bum) go without so as to save both money spent on vacine stock and money spent on benefits. Win Win.

 

[Scouse]

Trifle embarrassing.

I declined anyway.

Funny on a stick!

I'd have had to do it. Anything to stick it to an underperforming government.