Baby Peter the Verdict

[Yoni]

I dunno Yoni, I don't have a lot of sympathy for murderers, rapists and vile child abusers/molesters.

I don't have sympathy for them either, I just do not and can not accept it is morally correct to put someone to death for killing / raping etc someone else... it is not logical in my poor little brain.

 

[MYstIC G]

People shouldn't be killed end of :|

You pay for all their upkeep then, k?

 

[nath]

You pay for all their upkeep then, k?

Why be an obnoxious twat about it? Besides, putting someone to death isn't cheaper unless you decide to completely remote all appeal proceedings etc. Clearly not a good idea if you're killing someone.

 

[Yoni]

You pay for all their upkeep then, k?

I do..

 

[MYstIC G]

Why be an obnoxious twat about it? Besides, putting someone to death isn't cheaper unless you decide to completely remote all appeal proceedings etc. Clearly not a good idea if you're killing someone.

Do not call me an obnoxious twat just because our views differ, stick to making points.

Secondly you can't prove the latter part of your sentence. In any event, I don't want to pay towards these peoples upkeep in any way shape or form. Unfortunately we don't live in a society where I am afforded that option.

Oh whilst I think about it, morals are subjective Yonikins, which is probably why what happened to P happened in the first place. You were just lucky to have some morals instilled in you, presumably by your parents.

 

[rynnor]

People shouldn't be killed end of :|

Are you anti-abortion then?

 

[rynnor]

I don't have sympathy for them either, I just do not and can not accept it is morally correct to put someone to death for killing / raping etc someone else... it is not logical in my poor little brain.

Surely it is perfectly logical just not particularly palatable but I still think its a cop out to effectively sentence people to a non-life but not have the guts to end said non-life.

 

[rynnor]

People shouldn't be killed just because they don't fit in with society.

Its not an issue of not fitting in with society we are talking about people who will remain forever a positive threat to society.

People who murder in a fit of rage or barroom brawl are fairly easy to rehabilitate - people who systematically torture a child over many months are so palpably lacking in the basic human trait of empathy that they can never be fixed.

For all the wonders of modern psychology no-one has ever 'fixed' a patient with what would have been termed a 'psychopathic personality'.

In many countries throughout the world such people would be executed - are we so morally superior or is it just moral cowardice?

 

[gunner440]

are we so morally superior or is it just moral cowardice?

I'd say the latter. Seems to be a trend to give out the impression that we are doing the 'right' thing. How you define 'right' is another issue altogether.

I believe in 2nd chances but when we start talking double digits I think it gets ridiculous.

 

[nath]

Do not call me an obnoxious twat just because our views differ, stick to making points.

Secondly you can't prove the latter part of your sentence. In any event, I don't want to pay towards these peoples upkeep in any way shape or form. Unfortunately we don't live in a society where I am afforded that option.

It wasn't because our views differ, it was because of the needlessly abrasive and argumentative way you worded your response.

Anyway, I think it's pretty fair to use America as a yardstick when discussing the death penalty as they have it, we don't. Clearly there's a wealth of other factors involved but I don't know of any other country that has the death penalty that'd be more suitable. With their system, the death penalty is more expensive than life in prison.

It seems a little simplistic to say "gah, fuck it - kill the bastards". It's reactionary and unrealistic. If you scrub out all the stuff that is put in place to avoid executing innocent people, how do you ensure that those people don't end up getting killed? What's more, is it worth the risk of killing innocent people just so you can have ever so slightly lower taxes?

When it comes down to it, what is it that makes you want the death penalty? If it's money - I really don't see how it's workable in a civilised society.

 

[Mey]

Considering the amount of funding the prison service actually gets, and the amount of people we have in it. It's pretty good value for money to be honest.

 

[Chilly]

depends if your only goal is to keep them locked up for a while or whether you want them to be less harmful to scoiety when they are out. There will be an optimum amount of money and effort to get to that point - but working it out is probably a lifetime of research.

 

[mooSe_]

Why don't we just kill everyone who doesn't have a job or pay their taxes or has a disability? That way we save loads of money.

 

[rynnor]

Why don't we just kill everyone who doesn't have a job or pay their taxes or has a disability? That way we save loads of money.

Who's suggesting that then other than you? We were discussing convicted murderers I thought?

I'm not suggesting it as a financial solution but as an alternative to life in prison with the greater potential for deterrence.

In the UK sentencing has 3 aims - punishment, rehabilitation and deterrence - in my opinion we have moved to far towards rehabilitation and too far away from punishment and deterrence.

Focus too much on rehabilitation and you end up trivialising crime.

 

[Draylor]

How stupid do people have to be to kill their own kid?

Just go down the pub & leave your front door open: yer friendly local pedo will handle the rest.

Didnt they learn anything from the McCanns?

 

[Yoni]

Are you anti-abortion then?

I am not able to have children myself so I have never been faced with that choice, however I do not think I would be able to go through with an abortion myself no. However I will not condem or fallout with anyone who makes that choice either, even if I am not pro.

 

[rynnor]

I am not able to have children myself so I have never been faced with that choice, however I do not think I would be able to go through with an abortion myself no. However I will not condem or fallout with anyone who makes that choice either, even if I am not pro.

Tricky - I cant see how a person can be pro-life to the extent of saying theres no circumstances where a person should be executed but then not condemn the killing of thousands of completely innocent babies just because abortion is socially accepted?

 

[tris-]

I dunno Yoni, I don't have a lot of sympathy for murderers, rapists and vile child abusers/molesters.

I may be imaging it, but I believe I have read that peadophilia etc could be a mental health issue much like any other.

Im not sure it is OK to kill mentally ill people, even if they do something we all think is horrible.

 

[rynnor]

I may be imaging it, but I believe I have read that peadophilia etc could be a mental health issue much like any other.

Im not sure it is OK to kill mentally ill people, even if they do something we all think is horrible.

Thats a road that eventually leads to all criminals claiming they werent responsible for their crimes.

Their may well be a genetic component to theft and violence - none of us have true free will - we are a collection of instincts / perceptual warping etc. etc. - at some point people have to accept personal responsibility.

 

[Zenith]

So the personal responsibility should be death then? Swift, perhaps convinient, perhaps not moraly grounded and we as a society will be stuck with murderers forever, since we just kill the offenders rather than "cure" them at best, but atleast learn more about what actually cause these situations to happend.

 

[rynnor]

So the personal responsibility should be death then? Swift, perhaps convinient, perhaps not moraly grounded and we as a society will be stuck with murderers forever, since we just kill the offenders rather than "cure" them at best, but atleast learn more about what actually cause these situations to happend.

We will be stuck with murderers forever - anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

Causes are probably partly genetic partly environmental but even if you knew what they were you couldnt prevent it. How would you stop people with bad genes or who would be bad parents from breeding - its as silly as that NSPCC campaign to end child cruelty - might as well try to wipe out poverty

 

[SawTooTH]

Thats a road that eventually leads to all criminals claiming they werent responsible for their crimes.

Their may well be a genetic component to theft and violence - none of us have true free will - we are a collection of instincts / perceptual warping etc. etc. - at some point people have to accept personal responsibility.

As you say you can argue that people are not responsible and don't actually have free will, its an illusion. If your mind unconciously decides your fate then there is no choice. The concious just acts as a conduit to produce the necessary actions, being nice, killing babies whatever. The old nature, ie genetic pressure, evolutionary behaviour patterns vs the nurture, upbringing etc.

I think this is a cop out personally.

 

[nath]

We will be stuck with murderers forever - anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

Causes are probably partly genetic partly environmental but even if you knew what they were you couldnt prevent it. How would you stop people with bad genes or who would be bad parents from breeding - its as silly as that NSPCC campaign to end child cruelty - might as well try to wipe out poverty

I think that's a fairly pointlessly defeatist attitude. Just because we'll most likely never be rid of something, doesn't mean we shouldn't endeavour to try and reduce it as much as possible. Understanding why people commit crimes is anything but a bad thing, and could well lead on to new ideas to prevent them.

 

[tris-]

It might not be true either. For all we know there could be a gene linked to murdering tendancies or what ever.

Then its a case of detecting it in the womb like everything else these dayus.

 

[throdgrain]

I may be imaging it, but I believe I have read that peadophilia etc could be a mental health issue much like any other.

Im not sure it is OK to kill mentally ill people, even if they do something we all think is horrible.

This is simply a composite of all attitudes from the last 20 years. "It's not my fault I've got adhd or shopligting obsession or murdering children or raping babies sydrome. Just put me in a hospital for a bit, I'll be alright". "I passed my GCSE, I got a G"

Let me let you into a secret. It's not alright. You failed your exam, and you're a fucking murderer.

 

[tris-]

That isnt really what I said is it?

 

[nath]

Let me let you into a secret. It's not alright. You failed your exam, and you're a fucking murderer.

There's a difference between trying to understand the reasons that someone does these things and saying that it's OK to do them. I'm sure there are cases where people play on these things, but there are mentally ill people that become violent. Understanding these things with an idea to prevent them in the future is a good thing.

Saying "no, murderers bad and I don't want to hear any excuses" is all well and good but it doesn't get us anywhere. If mental illness is a factor in certain crimes, there aren't going to be many/any deterrents, thus the only real issue should be keeping the public safe. The public are just as safe in a high security mental institution as in a prison.

 

[rynnor]

There's a difference between trying to understand the reasons that someone does these things and saying that it's OK to do them. I'm sure there are cases where people play on these things, but there are mentally ill people that become violent. Understanding these things with an idea to prevent them in the future is a good thing.

My point is that you cant prevent these things without extremely dodgy eugenics - take psychopaths - an estimated 1% of the population has this personality type yet only a tiny fraction go on to committ crimes.

Lets say you could identify these people with a genetic test - what then?

Would you imprison them because they happen to have a dodgy gene? Would you abort all babies that have this gene with the knowledge that only a tiny number will ever go on to commit crimes?

For the ones where their home life has screwed them up would you sterilise all those who could be bad mothers etc. - knowing something does not mean you can neccesarily do anything about it and because humans are so very complex you'll never be able to predict who will go on to murder.

 

[throdgrain]

I was double pissed when I wrote that

I expect you know what I think anyway, so I wont bother writing any more

 

[nath]

knowing something does not mean you can neccesarily do anything about it

Why is that a reason not to try?