Attacks on Iran is coming very soon..

[tierk]

Zede Iran is a net importer of oil products which costs it billions of dollars every year. The cost of increasing refining capacity to meet current demand let alone to keep pace with ever increasing demand for oil products (m100 oil or gasoline for that matter) runs into the tens of billions of dollars. It is far cheaper to build a nuclear power plant and maintain it then to upgrade the existing refineries in Iran. I hope that answers your question.

On a personal level i am against all kinds of nuclear power, accidents in this field of energy generation are catastrophic as has been shown with Chernobyl and Three Mile Island but this doesnt seem to be enough reason for countries that are insisting on building these damn things.

For the attention of Hawkwind

I would just like to extend my thanks to you for replying to my posts in a manner that invites open, candid and serious debate.

I hope that you are not in anyway offended or upset by what i post on this thread as it is not my intention to provoke or inspire anger in anyone but to rather, have a discussion about this matter as it seems there is a lot of misunderstanding from both sides.

Now to answer some of the points that you make in your last post, which i have to say has many valid points allow me to say that you might have gotten some of your facts mixed up.

The incident with the policewoman was infact a shooting outside the Syrian embassy and the victim was a young PC called Yvonne Fletcher. She was killed by a unnamed shooter from the Syrian Embassy and the net result of that incident was that diplomatic relations between the two countries were cut. As for your comments about the current president of iran being involved in someway in the hostage crisis in 1979 i would suggest that it was a case of "you Muslims all look alike anyway" please read the following link.....

CNN.com - Sources: CIA finds Iranian president likely not hostage-taker - Aug 12, 2005


Trust on both sides seems to be seriously lacking, however, Irans decision to Uniltaterally suspended all enrichment activities in late 2004 should have elicited a better response and in my eyes went a long way in trying to allay western fears. The fact that Iran agreed to sign a additional protocol with regards to enrichment (never ratified by parliment) showed what was clearly good faith and a willingness to try and build trust.

The lightwater reactors were offered on condition that Iran commit to a total stop to all enrichment activities, which Iran has made abundantly clear they will not do as it means that the control of its energy sector would not be in there own hands and could in the future be stopped by the supplier of enriched uranuim to Iran refusing to supply the goodies. This is they feel a matter of national security and also to be quite frank there right anyway as per the NPT.

Your comments about international law is a bit rich dont you think considering the current occupation of Iraq just as a recent example? We both, i think, can agree that if Iran was flouting International law that they would have been drop kicked out of the ground by now?

Hamas, Hezbollah are both resistance groups fighting against occupation, Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah Lebanon (read Shebba Farms) and i am pretty sure that resistance to occupation is enshrined in the Geneva Convention a convention not written by Iran i might add. Not sure about Islamic Jihad (not sure if they receiev support from Iran) but again resisting occupation.

The list of countries and organisations that the USA has and is sponsoring to date is long i will just give you a few of them: pretty much all of S America over a lo0ong period of time (Chile-Pinochet, Nicaragua-Contras, Argentina-Junta after Junta), Mujahideen-e-Khalq-which ironically is on the USA's own list of terrorist organisations and lets not forget everyones favourite Al Qaeda. I could continue but i know you get the picture.

You might feel that i am very one sided with regards to this issue and you would be correct i am. After all the Lies that the world was fed about Iraq i am, to be honest, surprised that anyone believes anything that comes from politicians mouths in the West.

 

[crispy]

Ok in the spirit of the board, lets go OT!

Actually nuclear power is, ironically, enviromentally more safe than coal or oil fueled plants. And imo we should use it ALOT more. But the god damn hippies didnt want it in the 60's in Denmark! Understandable tho since back then it was a relatively dangerous business, but we've come a long way baby

We should immediately exchange coal, gas and oil plants for nuclear plants, and from there just build up on renewable energy sources, which hopefully one day will be at 100%

 

[Hawkwind]

Stated I would not add further but England Games not on Showtime

I would just like to extend my thanks to you for replying to my posts in a manner that invites open, candid and serious debate.

No problem, we live in strange times but always better to talk. Leads to better understanding.

I hope that you are not in anyway offended or upset by what i post on this thread as it is not my intention to provoke or inspire anger in anyone but to rather, have a discussion about this matter as it seems there is a lot of misunderstanding from both sides.

Not offended at all, free speech is a good thing.

The incident with the policewoman was infact a shooting outside the Syrian embassy and the victim was a young PC called Yvonne Fletcher.

Completely correct I mixed that event up with the hostage siege at the Iranian Embassy which the SAS stormed and ended. Both so long ago, memory must be on the way out. Too much beer.

The lightwater reactors were offered on condition that Iran commit to a total stop to all enrichment activities, which Iran has made abundantly clear they will not do as it means that the control of its energy sector would not be in there own hands and could in the future be stopped by the supplier of enriched uranuim to Iran refusing to supply the goodies. This is they feel a matter of national security and also to be quite frank there right anyway as per the NPT.

Russia was the supplier and everything was going to be under the control of the IAEA. So I fail to see how your scenario would not be in anyones interests. Not like the US have much control of Russia these days

Your comments about international law is a bit rich dont you think considering the current occupation of Iraq just as a recent example? We both, i think, can agree that if Iran was flouting International law that they would have been drop kicked out of the ground by now?

You appear to think I agree with the what's going on in Iraq, I don't. I would like nothing more than to see Bush and Blair behind bars for the illegal war they created on the back of fabricated evidence.

Hamas, Hezbollah are both resistance groups fighting against occupation, Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah Lebanon (read Shebba Farms) and i am pretty sure that resistance to occupation is enshrined in the Geneva Convention a convention not written by Iran i might add. Not sure about Islamic Jihad (not sure if they receiev support from Iran) but again resisting occupation.

The Palestinian elected Government has asked that these groups disband and give up the armed struggle as part of a search for peace. It's the same organisations that are ripping Palestine apart now. Hardly resistance. It turned into nothing more than a power struggle between different religious factions. Even to the point of fighting each other. Another Beruit in the making.

The fact remains that Iran's Revolutionary Guard actively recruits, arms and trains martyrs (Suicide bombers!). That I find abhorrent. To turn young dissolutioned people into a weapon just crazy.

The list of countries and organisations that the USA has and is sponsoring to date is long i will just give you a few of them: pretty much all of S America over a lo0ong period of time (Chile-Pinochet, Nicaragua-Contras, Argentina-Junta after Junta), Mujahideen-e-Khalq-which ironically is on the USA's own list of terrorist organisations and lets not forget everyones favourite Al Qaeda. I could continue but i know you get the picture.

Could have separate debates on each of those tbh. Supplying weapons and arms is big business, always has been. Doubt it will stop anytime soon. Guess I was even part of it for a few years. Involved in Technical training in country post BAe Hawk sales in Middle East and Asia.

Sorry could go on for ages but tired. Hope it all turns out ok and that peace will eventually come to this region. Although sadly I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

 

[GRN]

I doubt all the regions in the Middle East will ever see peace, regardless what the west tries to do. Their fathers were taught to hate their neighbours, so are they, and so will their sons and daughters be.

Hate, hate, hate. Jihad for the win, praise Allah! Durka Durka.

Sorry.

Yours,
GRN

 

[aika]

tierk I dont understand how can you trust nuclear weapons to a person like the Iranian president, that threathened he will destroy Israel multiple times, or to such religion that trains young ppl to suicide themselves. I really cant see how can you justify it.

 

[Hawkwind]

tierk I dont understand how can you trust nuclear weapons to a person like the Iranian president, that threathened he will destroy Israel multiple times, or to such religion that trains young ppl to suicide themselves. I really cant see how can you justify it.

Not fair to blame the entire Muslim religion on the actions of a few hardline clerics (nut cases). They abuse their positions to create a power base. The same thing went on in Europe a few hundred years ago.

The Koran is very much like the bible. Advocates peace, understanding and humitly. Even recognises the Jewish and Christian faiths. Try reading a translation, its very poetic.

I'm sure if every Christian were still reading the original scripts, or even the James II version, rather than the watered down modernised version of the bible we would have alot more hardline nutty christian groups. Klu Klux Klan, Nazi's anyone.

Its a shame religion is still abused by a few for their own ends.

 

[Ctuchik]

Whilst we dont know for sure, if the axies or allies would of won the war, if it didnt end when it did. One thing is for certain, it would of been a hell of a struggle if we didnt have the industrial might of America helping us. Many war veterans, and WW2 experts, put this down as being the main reason we won the war.

was the sherman paper tanks that won it.

 

[aika]

Not fair to blame the entire Muslim religion on the actions of a few hardline clerics (nut cases). They abuse their positions to create a power base. The same thing went on in Europe a few hundred years ago.

The Koran is very much like the bible. Advocates peace, understanding and humitly. Even recognises the Jewish and Christian faiths. Try reading a translation, its very poetic.

I'm sure if every Christian were still reading the original scripts, or even the James II version, rather than the watered down modernised version of the bible we would have alot more hardline nutty christian groups. Klu Klux Klan, Nazi's anyone.

Its a shame religion is still abused by a few for their own ends.

Thats true, it seems islam is now undergoing the same thing Europe underwent in teh Crusades and inquisition period. And its not so few cases, I see the power of extreme islamism is only rising

 

[tierk]

tierk I dont understand how can you trust nuclear weapons to a person like the Iranian president, that threathened he will destroy Israel multiple times, or to such religion that trains young ppl to suicide themselves. I really cant see how can you justify it.

It is comments like this that only serve to highlight the problem with the vaste majority of people. You are making the assumption that Iran is after nuclear weapons. There is no evidence to support this at all on the ground.

It makes me wonder were you get this from becuz i am sure people working on the Iran case file at the IAEA would love to know. The Cia, Mossad and just about every other intelligence agency out there feeds information to the IAEA and gives them up to date satellite pictures and still no covert nuclear effort has been found.

The fact of the matter is that the IAEA has been looking at Irans case for over three years and has yet to find any credible evidence of a clandestine effort to build nuclear weapons. Now you might wonder who a person would like to believe: the people who have visited the various sites in iran hundreds and hundreds of times or a news agency that spews out whatever they want to with no basis in fact, i think logically it would be a pretty clear cut decision.

Just in the same way that i trusted UNSCOM when they said that Iraq was clean prior to the invasion.

You talk about trusting a religion that trains suicide bombers i would say to you that isnt a representation of the Islam that i was brought up with and the fact of the matter is that the vaste majority of Muslims are against suicide bombings. In addtion i would just like to point out that suicide bombings are not a Iranian thing and if you look at the people carrying out these actions they are invariably either Pakistani please read link provided

Bloomberg.com: Asia

Pakistan has nuclear bombs how come there is no concern about them supplying a nuke to a terrorist group?

Or Arabs.

'Martyrs' In Iraq Mostly Saudis


Both these countries (Saudia Arabia and Pakistan) are American allies funnily enough. Hawkwind made a point in his last post that the Iranian Revoltionary Guards (IRG) are recruiting and training suicide bombers, this is false. The vaste majority are from either Saudi or Pakistan as well as numerious other Arab countries (Morrocco, Algeria, Palestine etc).

You also mention that the preisdent of Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the map. People in Iran have been chanting "death to America" for almost 30 years now but i would ask you how many Americans have been proven to be killed by Iranians?

Now take the Arab allies of America like Suadi Arabia and ask yerself how many proven deaths of Americans over the last ten years can be placed at there door? 9-11 is just the last big one, daily suicides in Iraq, the embassies in Africa, the USS Cole Kobar Towers in Saudi, just to name a few.

I wont even get into the argument about the dodgey translation of the comments made by the president about Israel as most people already decided for themselves that this is what he said. What strikes me as funny is that prior to these comments Iran, had and continues to be, threatened with nuclear attack. If you can follow this link

Iran and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and go to the section reading The United States Stance and read the last bullet point. Makes for interesting reading. This isnt just isolated to Iran as the link below shows but are we take these comments literally?

We'll bomb you to Stone Age, US told Pakistan - Times Online

Iran already has missles that can reach Israel and also has weapons capabale of "wiping Israel off the map" in the form of chemical and biological weapons. Why have they not done so if this was his intention? I would suggest that it is rhetoric, empty rhetoric, along the same lines as "death to America" chants.

 

[aika]

Have you watched any of the Iranian president's speeches? Do you seriously believe he is not after nuclear weapons? If you are , then you're blind, I'm sorry

And what would happen if ppl in Israel or America would chant death to Iran, or death to Islam? What would happen? The entire islamic world and europe countries will jump and blame usa and israle of being fascist and what not. Yet its perfectly normal when they do that? Bunch of hypocrites if you ask me,

 

[tierk]

Have you watched any of the Iranian president's speeches? Do you seriously believe he is not after nuclear weapons? If you are , then you're blind, I'm sorry

I have watched many of speeches from Iranian leaders and i actually understand what they are saying without needing to rely on a translator. Please refer to my last post about the IAEA and there search for clandestine nuclear weapons programmes. If you believe anything coming out of the mouth of politicians that have lied and lied and lied again (GWB&Co) i would suggest that it is you who is blind or playing at being a Ostrich.

The supreme leader of Iran has even issued a Fatwa stating that we cannot build a bomb. Seeing as there is so much coverage on the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie how come this one doesnt get the same level coverage?

And what would happen if ppl in Israel or America would chant death to Iran, or death to Islam? What would happen? The entire islamic world and europe countries will jump and blame usa and israle of being fascist and what not. Yet its perfectly normal when they do that? Bunch of hypocrites if you ask me

Noone is saying that it is perfectly normal and acceptable, the point i was making and which you have totally failed to see is that it's just empty words, there have been no terror attacks by Iranians against Americans or Israel. If anything Iran has even helped the Americans on numerious occasions in the so called "war on terror" Also in all fairness we have received our fair share of threats from USA and Israel that is the nature of politics.

 

[aika]

So the weapons they transfered to numerous terrorist organisations dont count ?

 

[tierk]

So the weapons they transfered to numerous terrorist organisations dont count ?

What weapons transfers to what terrorist organisations? Whose definition are you using to descibe terrorism? Ask a Palestinian what terrorist means, or a Iraqi, i think they might have very different thoughts to what or who is a terrorist.

You strike me as a person who takes eveything you see on the news from politicians with ulterior motives as gospel. Just like the BS you were spoon fed about Iraq's WMD's immenient threat to the UK and USA with weapons depolayable in forty five minutes it is generally bullshit painted up as fact

You will find that the USA has supported: materially, financially and politically more dodgey organisations then the rest of the world together. Hell they are even doing it now to groups they have on there on list of terrorist organisations. Its called politics and doesnt mean that the USA will give Kurdish seperatist groups fighting against the current regime in Iran nuclear bombs does it?? This is what is meant by fighting wars by proxy.

Hezzbollah doesnt take part in terror strikes against Americans when Americans aint in Lebanon, they fight against Israeli occuaption of there lands (Shebba Farms). Hamas doesnt terrorise Americans but fights Israeli occupation of their land. The people teorrorising the USA and its allies today funnily enough was a creation of America to fight the Russians in Afghanistan in the the eighties. The suicide bombers you see in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with Iran, those are Sunni muslims either from Pakistan or Saudi.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Tierk you keep saying that Pakistan and Saudi-Arabia should be considered threats because so many suicide bombers come from there. If they were democratic countries then maybe. But they arent. The leaders of those countries are on the USA's side. The Bushes even have personal connections with the Saudi royals.


If it truly is possible to be 100% sure that they wont get their hands on nukes then i see no reason why they shouldnt be allowed to have nuclear powerplants. Lets face it, Bush is only after more power and oil in the middle
east.

Also, I do understand why the Iranians are so reluctant to trust the USA. Why on earth would they? xd

 

[tierk]

Tierk you keep saying that Pakistan and Saudi-Arabia should be considered threats because so many suicide bombers come from there...

Its not that they should be considered threats, i am trying to point out to people that talk of Iran being terrorists or sponsors of terrorism is just way off the mark and used as a way of trying to justify the failures of the Americans in Iraq and a excuse in a build up to another war in the Gulf to secure oil.