Armsman are really so bad?

[*Ialkarn]

The thing is, armsmen will never get what they need to make them "ungimped" = better then some other class that can have thier spot instead. They wont give armsmen dualwield and i highly doubt they will change how blocking/guarding works, this is the main reason why armsmen are bad as offensive tanks. The other 2 realms heavy tanks (hero, warrior) are not as "gimped" because they have other uses except damage (guard) while in albion guarding is done by paladins since you need one of them in the group no matter what you do for endregen. The only real use an armsman have atm that they do better then some other alb class is guardbot for _caster_ groups but those aint exactly the most commonly used setups in Albion atm.

Having armsmen in the group WORKS but its far from the best choice.

Someone finally said something of usefull.

ppl is always impressed by the damage of a single swing,whitout consider factors like swing time and chance to land a style sucessfully,they also think +20 str and -10 quickness would be an uge boost,when less quickness mean less swingtime too and 20 str is abount what you lose whitout a buffbot whit hightmoart.

But over that,do you really think have 450 str instead of 430 (toa setups) make any difference in terms of damage?

A good class is a good class no matter the race you play,norsemen beserkers were uber before LA nerf,so hand to hand trolls savage are now.

Ofc an half ogre armsman is a better armsman,but still a gimped tank compared to any briton/highlander/saracen/inconnu mercenary.

and btw.. a capped shot as 2h/pole +damage add+critical is the same (or just slight slight higher) than a capped shot whit right hand +left hand (+double critical +double damage add),whitout critical is prolly lower..

 

[Kagato]

its going to be interesting watching the 40 quickness half-ogres deal with pbt and trying to land reactionaries, I know I play with little quickness but theres a stage where your just taking it to far.

I don't think the half ogre race will help armsman or make 'better' armsman because armsman just have to many problems at the moment as it is and this wont change until rvr itself changes dramatically which is not likely to happen soon. Double speccing being fixed would help as would a few other things but it wont give us any real advantage.

RvR needs you to deal the most amount of damage in the shortest amount of time, no amount of quickness tweaking, spec tampering or spellcrafting is going to help armsman excel in this field. Its something only Mythic can change.

 

[Drav]

RvR needs you to deal the most amount of damage in the shortest amount of time, no amount of quickness tweaking, spec tampering or spellcrafting is going to help armsman excel in this field. Its something only Mythic can change.

Yup like I said, its about time us armsman got something, JUST to keep us in the running with everyone else in the game.

I mean for a tank that was meant to be able to suck up loads of dmg while hitting like a dream, it seems armsman have been moved more and more away from what we we're originally intended to do. Mercenary's at the moment are just FOTM, you of all classes should understand because there was a time when you were in exactly the same position.

IMO if mythic are gonna go this way with armsmen, making us basically an anti-social char, who groups do not particularly want, then they should nerf our group dependency and make us able to solo in RvR. If not that then do something major that will give us something that will make us required in groups.

Patch after patch we have gone from being Albions main number 1 tank, down to the last option for any tank anyone would want.

And then on top of it we're thrown excuses as too why we're still group friendly, "You have Plate!" yes so does another class I wont mention, "You have Det!" so do Mercs, "You are the hardest hitting melee class in Albion" well obviously most of alb doesnt think so.....

I mean there was a stage when you could put up with the massive grind, sometimes mostly soloing because of un-groupfriendlyness, towards lvl 50 because you knew that once you got to rvr you would be needed, but this is seriously no longer the case.

Oh well hopefully we'll eventually get something, maybe with Frontiers coming along and the RA system being over hauled we might pick up something to make us worth our while.

Gotta say tho, I doubt mercs and paladins will be hitting doors as hard, as a 50 polearmer with Faultfinder (battlemaster ML 2 style).

 

[Jox]

Someone finally said something of usefull.

ppl is always impressed by the damage of a single swing,whitout consider factors like swing time and chance to land a style sucessfully,they also think +20 str and -10 quickness would be an uge boost,when less quickness mean less swingtime too and 20 str is abount what you lose whitout a buffbot whit hightmoart.

But over that,do you really think have 450 str instead of 430 (toa setups) make any difference in terms of damage?

A good class is a good class no matter the race you play,norsemen beserkers were uber before LA nerf,so hand to hand trolls savage are now.

Ofc an half ogre armsman is a better armsman,but still a gimped tank compared to any briton/highlander/saracen/inconnu mercenary.

and btw.. a capped shot as 2h/pole +damage add+critical is the same (or just slight slight higher) than a capped shot whit right hand +left hand (+double critical +double damage add),whitout critical is prolly lower..

"But over that,do you really think have 450 str instead of 430 (toa setups) make any difference in terms of damage?"

I thought 350 was max, and that you need to get a toa-item that says overcap to go beyond it. Have they removed the cap at 350? How much "overcap" can we get?

 

[Tay]

FYI Half Ogre Pole Armsmen are the hardest hitting char in the game.
Ofc with only base Qui, no haste and 5.9spd Pole.

I've seen some screenys from US of them hitting over 1000 (non crit) on lvl 50 targets.

Ofc frontloading is gimped but just a bit of useless information for you


edit-

couple of pics
http://tsmartin.com/albums/album18/sshot038.jpg
http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~johnny/daoc/pwnage.JPG

The first screeny sums it up "You are out of endurance"

 

[Wiebe]

The thing is, armsmen will never get what they need to make them "ungimped" = better then some other class that can have thier spot instead. They wont give armsmen dualwield and i highly doubt they will change how blocking/guarding works, this is the main reason why armsmen are bad as offensive tanks. The other 2 realms heavy tanks (hero, warrior) are not as "gimped" because they have other uses except damage (guard) while in albion guarding is done by paladins since you need one of them in the group no matter what you do for endregen. The only real use an armsman have atm that they do better then some other alb class is guardbot for _caster_ groups but those aint exactly the most commonly used setups in Albion atm.

Having armsmen in the group WORKS but its far from the best choice.

100% true, this is why armsman are ''gimped'', in mid and hib we dont have better guardbots. you do wich makes armsman lose there main ability for group.

 

[Drav]

100% true, this is why armsman are ''gimped'', in mid and hib we dont have better guardbots. you do wich makes armsman lose there main ability for group.

So true but its a sad truth

 

[Bracken]

There are a lot of problems with armsmen - all of which have been covered in this thread. But I don't believe its a dead class, and I still think they can do a decent job. Why? Well for a few reasons...

I used to play my 2h arms with 0 quickness. With the problems that brought (already stated in this thread) I switched to 50 quick on my template (and considering going to the cap), and now taking full spec dex/quick buff I run at average 180-190 quickness. On top of that comes haste. This has made a big difference - the damage over time increased significantly (as the damage per swing loss was not that great) and missing a hit is no longer the killer it was before. The pbt issue is offset when you're in an assist train. So in terms of the slow swing rate, there are ways to counter this and improve the damage over time. Would never suggest that its gonna be up there with a merc ofc, but can still be pretty decent.

Then there is the change to the 2H styles to give the rear snare with the 7 sec stun follow up means that effectively you have the pf effect on a fleeing enemy without having to find the 14 pts. The downside is that the effect is on a timer. Throw into this that you have Soldiers Barricade which is underrated as a RA - in dark age of tankalot it can swing a fight, particularly if timed right with BoF.

Finally, although less of a factor armsmen do take more damage than any other alb tank. This can come into play when your assist train comes under attack by enemy tanks - fights can be swung when the ma is taken out , so an armsman being able to take more damage can make a difference in some fights. Admittedly not a huge difference - but every little bit adds up.

So I agree that for albion mercs are a better option currently, but armsmen are not the dead class some believe them to be - and it wouldn't take THAT much loving for them to be put right back up there by Mythic.

 

[Lethul]

its going to be interesting watching the 40 quickness half-ogres deal with pbt and trying to land reactionaries, I know I play with little quickness but theres a stage where your just taking it to far.

aye, when you dont have 75 qui on your template you are pushing it to far

 

[Vindicator]

its going to be interesting watching the 40 quickness half-ogres deal with pbt and trying to land reactionaries, I know I play with little quickness but theres a stage where your just taking it to far.

I wont say anything except tell you what the swing times are for a half ogre with 40 qui and a 5.5 spd pole and a Highlander Such as your self with 50 qui < if you didnt touch at creation and have 0+ qui> with a 5.5 spd pole are. The facts can speak for them selfs.

Highlander
Speed: 5.5
Quick: 50
Haste: 0
Effective Speed: 5.61

Half-Ogre
Speed: 5.5
Quick: 40
Haste: 0
Effective Speed: 5.72

 

[Kagato]

I wont say anything except tell you what the swing times are for a half ogre with 40 qui and a 5.5 spd pole and a Highlander Such as your self with 50 qui < if you didnt touch at creation and have 0+ qui> with a 5.5 spd pole are. The facts can speak for them selfs.

Highlander
Speed: 5.5
Quick: 50
Haste: 0
Effective Speed: 5.61

Half-Ogre
Speed: 5.5
Quick: 40
Haste: 0
Effective Speed: 5.72

Before you say 'such as yourself' perhaps you should take the time to find out how much quickness I actually have.

For your infomation its alot more then 50, and yes due to being my first ever character before I knew anything about daoc I actually placed some starting points in quickness, so if I capped it i'd only be a couple of points short of you for quickness thankyou very much. :kissit:

And for the record im using a 5.3 pole.

 

[Vindicator]

I wont say anything except tell you what the swing times are for a half ogre with 40 qui and a 5.5 spd pole and a Highlander Such as your self with 50 qui < if you didnt touch at creation and have 0+ qui> with a 5.5 spd pole are. The facts can speak for them selfs.

Notice the writing in bold mate. I was aware you may not have had 50 qui hence this sentance.

oh and Just so you know with the information you have provided me. here are the relavant stats

Kagato
Speed: 5.3
Quick: 60
Haste:
Effective Speed: 5.3

Half Ogre with Same weapon
Speed: 5.3
Quick: 40
Haste:
Effective Speed: 5.512

 

[Kagato]

Notice the writing in bold mate. I was aware you may not have had 50 qui hence this sentance.

oh and Just so you know with the information you have provided me. here are the relavant stats

Kagato
Speed: 5.3
Quick: 60
Haste:
Effective Speed: 5.3

Half Ogre with Same weapon
Speed: 5.3
Quick: 40
Haste:
Effective Speed: 5.512

I said I play with little quickness, have I ever stated anywhere I have 0 quickness on my template? No, I may not have capped quickness but as stated before I have a heck of alot more then what your showing here, however my template is my business but rest assured I swing faster then what you claim, and should I need it, I have a nice haste charge on my shield I can fire up as needed.

 

[Archon]

.. on the other side, have many groups uses pbt nowadays? Did I miss some info on pbt getting "bether" or more "usefull" then it was before the expansion

 

[*Ialkarn]

Finally, although less of a factor armsmen do take more damage than any other alb tank.

The ammount of more damage an armsman can take in front of a merc is insignificant when you play against assist trains.

The only thing it make difference is an hight lvl of AP,a Ra 95% of armsman population can't affort whitout seriously gimp themself.

I die in less than 4 seconds against a good mid assist train if I get melee stunned and I can't fire ras.

2500 hits,plate and less than 4 secs,the duration of the savage stun from behind.

Armsmen got plate and mercs can dirty tricks one of the opposite tanks.

 

[*Ialkarn]

"But over that,do you really think have 450 str instead of 430 (toa setups) make any difference in terms of damage?"

I thought 350 was max, and that you need to get a toa-item that says overcap to go beyond it. Have they removed the cap at 350? How much "overcap" can we get?

350 isn't max at all
Max virtually dosen't exist,you have 75 stat bonus from items at lvl 50
that is the only cap it exist,you can easy go over 350 placing 15 str at start (as highlander) or getting augment str.

Toa artifacts gives you the chance to overcap the item bonus,but in 1.68 this overcap (virtually unlimited in 1.67) it's fixed at +26.

so when I said 450 I exagerated
but you can go over 400 as Ho since highlanders goes over 350 already pre-toa.

 

[Vindicator]

And for the record im using a 5.3 pole.

You stated fact's here. You did not leave anybody or anyone information as to whether you played with +qui. If I want to make a statement I must complete to the best I can with the limited information I have, so I stand by that until a value is given so I can off set my results. Until then, That is how I see it.

The idea behind frontloading, was to either leave qui at +0 or Cap it. Gaining max benefit. A tangeable Benefit, not like a 50/50 kind of 'benefit' ^^. So if you do play with some random number, not quiet cap but not 0 either, then you leave your self in a very strange disposition. Not that it's bad position, Just an odd one anyway.

And Fyi, I was also a little silly when I created my arms and I 2 have some mis-spent points in qui so I doubt you would come as near as you think to my qui even if it was capped . Before you say' so if I capped it i'd only be a couple of points short of you for quickness thankyou very much.' perhaps you should take the time to find out how much quickness I actually have

The ammount of more damage an armsman can take in front of a merc is insignificant when you play against assist trains

With BodyGuard yes it is significant, You even concide that as a High RR Arms you gain an advantage over Merc's.

Agreed That Dirty Tricks is an awesome ablity but The fact of the matter is that Armsmen can soak up more damage and as most savage's use Thrust Claw's, For support class's, They will face a min 36% Thrust resist which is quite a difference to min 16% on a Merc. Slash claw's can be used but plate is Still 26% min, as is Chain.

 

[Parnelion]

The thing is, armsmen will never get what they need to make them "ungimped" = better then some other class that can have thier spot instead. QUOTE]

Givf Armsmen Fatigue regen and they will be ungimped imo
I love my armsman wouldnt think of playing anyother tank in alb.

 

[Kagato]

The idea behind frontloading, was to either leave qui at +0 or Cap it. Gaining max benefit. A tangeable Benefit, not like a 50/50 kind of 'benefit' ^^. So if you do play with some random number, not quiet cap but not 0 either, then you leave your self in a very strange disposition. Not that it's bad position, Just an odd one anyway.

Nothing strange about it, I wanted to use certain key Sidi items in my sc template and unfortunatly some of them had alot of quickness on them. I decided that the other benefits they provided were worth having to put up with the extra unwanted quickness for. If I could remove it, I would be its not possible so I just put up with the lower damage-per-hit.

 

[*Ialkarn]

With BodyGuard yes it is significant, You even concide that as a High RR Arms you gain an advantage over Merc's.

Body guard is a pure defensive Ml,infact you can't move too far from the caster your guarding (and he can't move at all),so it's totally incompatible whit an offensive role:it's good for palis or shield bot armsmen in caster groups (can an albion caster group affort pali+armsman? I m not even sure they can affort a pali),so it's not really the case we were discuting above.

 

[Drav]

Think one of the major problems with armsman at least at the moment is that they give nothing to groups that another class cannot, but are expected to group anyway to reduce the amount of downtime and grind we have.

I mean as far as I can tell we've become a fringe class, folks use find to look for a tank and realise they cant get a merc, and they already have a pala so they choose an arms just because they're the last option. This is a terrible way to go about balancing a class, and mythic should do something about it immediately, why should armsmen be the odd ones out all the time???

And if we are going to be that then at least make us decent fast lvling soloers, take us down the necro road but with decent RvR capabilities. Then an arms could solo fast, lvl fast without worrying about looking for groups or having to sit down for an hour after every pull with our slow a$$ health regen..... If thats not the route Mythic wanna take then give us something vital to group make up, make us the best at something rather than being an average of every other tank. Best dmg dealer was always the armsmans selling point, now mercs seem to have taken on this roll, or groups will just get two paladins and guard the walking batteries and nukers that are shooting the crap out of everything.

Nice idea of "balance" Mythic.

 

[Bracken]

make us the best at something rather than being an average of every other tank.

Good way of summing it up I think the biggest step would be to make fully double speccing worth it. It's daft that fully scd at 50/50 the damage output is only a fraction better than scd 50/39 , and also daft that at 50/50 our damage and variance compares badly to warriors who are also able to spec shield. Making it so that 50/50 actually gave us significantly higher damage or very little variance would be a significant step in the right direction.

 

[TeaSpoon]

Good way of summing it up I think the biggest step would be to make fully double speccing worth it. It's daft that fully scd at 50/50 the damage output is only a fraction better than scd 50/39 , and also daft that at 50/50 our damage and variance compares badly to warriors who are also able to spec shield. Making it so that 50/50 actually gave us significantly higher damage or very little variance would be a significant step in the right direction.

Aye, then it would actually make choosing to go 50/50 or 39/44/42 something worth thinking about.

 

[*Ialkarn]

It's not the double speccing the issue: it's the inferiority of 2h/pole in front of 1h or even worse in front of dual wield.

You would be still gimped if you had all your lines maxed to 50,
cause the role you have in a RvR group (offensive tank) isn't compatible whit the tols the game gives you.
You can't play 2h/pole against a guarded target you have to switch 1h.
that mean as offensive tank against a good group you have to stick whit your 1h for all the battle.

 

[Bracken]

It's not the double speccing the issue: it's the inferiority of 2h/pole in front of 1h or even worse in front of dual wield.

You would be still gimped if you had all your lines maxed to 50,
cause the role you have in a RvR group (offensive tank) isn't compatible whit the tols the game gives you.
You can't play 2h/pole against a guarded target you have to switch 1h.
that mean as offensive tank against a good group you have to stick whit your 1h for all the battle.

Its both that are the issue. If the damage you did with your 2H/pole actually meant that being blocked wasn't the killer it is now and that the hits you do land counted then it would make a significant difference. Yes there is the issue of how 2H/pole are penalised with blocking, but its the damage you do not being enough to compensate that's also the problem. Basically if the damage you did over the course of a fight (taking into account blocks, evades etc) was as good as some other tank classes then it's problem solved. Making 50/50 + sc really count in damage terms would be a very good start.

 

[*Ialkarn]

Its both that are the issue. If the damage you did with your 2H/pole actually meant that being blocked wasn't the killer it is now and that the hits you do land counted then it would make a significant difference. Yes there is the issue of how 2H/pole are penalised with blocking, but its the damage you do not being enough to compensate that's also the problem. Basically if the damage you did over the course of a fight (taking into account blocks, evades etc) was as good as some other tank classes then it's problem solved. Making 50/50 + sc really count in damage terms would be a very good start.

You know you are getting blocked like 80% of times against a decent shield tank right?

 

[Bracken]

You know you are getting blocked like 80% of times against a decent shield tank right?

Like I said...both are the issue. Fixing just blocking penalty on 2H wont make it right. Neither will just fixing double speccing. And basically they aint gonna do either in the forseeable future so only thing left to ask is...do you still enjoy playing your armsman? Personally I do. If I didn't I'd just reroll...

 

[Drav]

do you still enjoy playing your armsman? Personally I do. If I didn't I'd just reroll...

Yes but that isnt the point, you could get enjoyment out of a totally gimped char np if you spent enough time tryna find lunatics to group with ya. We shouldnt have to make a concerted effort to enjoy our armsman, they should be enjoyable anyway because they are on par with every other class..... but atm they're not.

We have had nothing but nerfage since beta why?? Why mythic why do you want us out of this game???? For what were the knights in shinning armor of Albion why dya want to replace us with a bunch of sheild wielding choir boys and a chain covered steak knife dual wielders???

IMO give arms end chant, life tap, nukes, and stealth and let us go solo zergs at a time....then none of us will have to wait hour by hour for groups, and if we want groups we will have our hands in enough skill pies to get one np.

BTW Im jk hehe.

Armsmen do need something tho..... and if nothing is here by the end of the year I'll probably /quit, because as everyone else gets stronger, we're just being left way behind patchwise.

Frontiers sounds as if it may be giving some class specific qualities, maybe we'll get something worth our game time.

 

[Bracken]

Yes but that isnt the point, you could get enjoyment out of a totally gimped char np if you spent enough time tryna find lunatics to group with ya. We shouldnt have to make a concerted effort to enjoy our armsman, they should be enjoyable anyway because they are on par with every other class..... but atm they're not.
.

So what is the point?. What I said was it aint going to happen in the near future - and all the complaining we do on here aint gonna make one dot of difference. Only thing mythic takes notice on is when people stop playing a class - not whats written on FH. So for me its a question of 1) Do I still have fun 2) Do groups Im in win enough fights for the game to remain enjoyable .Personally, the answer to both questions is yes (who'd have thought it huh?), and like I said if it wasn't I'd just reroll. Complaining on here is like pissing in the wind.

 

[Hercules-DF]

i agree we didnt need that race, we need a revamp of avalonians so its not 100% obvious its a caster when viewed thru enemy eyes,