Archers, scout's got... lemme see... hmm...

[Smartypants]

I hope I don't sound too much like a whiner here, but I was comparing the three different archers, and it didn't look good for my scout...

Hib Rangers got a whole range of buf spells, among them a pretty nice temporary speed buf, and they've got dual wield.

Mid Hunters got, let me see now... buf spells (with the same speed buf), pets (animals or insects), and an insta-pet (mids really need more insta-spells), and they've got a spear that hits like a ton of bricks (at least it did, when I played a hunter last summer, soloing orange mobs...).

So what does alb Scouts have? Uhmm... Yeah, they've got the bow with the longest range! Yay... OK, then what? There's something more, I'm sure of it... Hmm, they've got... Hmm... Well, if we play a saracen, we get to wear those silly little caps/hats...

So is this totally unbalanced, or have I just missed something? Serious question here, please tell me if I have missed something.

 

[minime_]

SLAM!!!!!!!!

 

[Tesla Monkor]

You, as a scout, get the best defense of the three archers. Ranger still has the best damage-output of all three, though. (Using self-buffs). They'll wipe the floor with a hunter+pet. Even when they're using their self-buffs.

Your bow shoots further than either a ranger or a hunter as well. =)

 

[Nemesis Warlock]

Ranger:

Range 36, Dam about 100% (as middle between scout and hunter)

Buffs armor ,str ect.
speed buff
Lower meleedam output than hunter, equal to scout (more with CDual), Medium Bow dam.

Hunter:

Range 32, Dam about 75%

Buffs armor, str ect.
Pets
Highest melee dam (e), lowest bow dam.

Scout:

Range 39, Dam about 120%

no buffs
Can shield spec and learn 9s shieldstun.
Medium meleedam, Highest Bow dam.

Original archer.


So u see the scout has farest range and highest dam.

Dont let urself fool by the "buffs" of ranger / hunter

The pet of hunter is grey and the buffs are used to reach the "normal dam ect." for that class..... i .e. a buffed ranger can be compared to scout. He is not MORE powerful. A ranger without buffs is just less powerful and the buffs used to bring dam up in line with scout ect.

 

[Flimgoblin]

rangers have the same range as scouts...
hunters have slightly less...


from what I've read:

a ranger will out-tank a scout barring the slam
bow damage will be similar but the ranger will always be buffed...

that's just what I've read on here so can't vouch for it really
Any scouts around to comment?

 

[CliffyG]

Scouts may well have slam but they have to spec 42 times in shield for it. I think they do need something added to the class, not sure what though.

 

[Tranquil-]

Ok, alot of semi-faulty statements here.

Scouts have 2.2k loc units range
Rangers have 2.1k loc units range
Hunters have 2.0k loc units range

This is with the top end (Heavy) Longbow and Heavy recurve bow in the respective realms.

Scouts and Rangers get the same bows(16.5/5.5) so the damage with those two classes will be the same considering same stats/specs.

Hunters get 5.0 speed bows so their damage will be slightly lower. They still have a decent damagecap(900'ish) even though rangers and scouts can get 100ish more damage on a max crit depending on bowspec.

Rangers and Hunters have selfbuffs which will always make sure of that they have a weaponskill that's higher than scouts(or can have equal weaponskill but can use the speccpoints in other places instead of bow).

The selfbuffs will make sure that rangers and hunters will shoot faster and harder than scouts considering equal bowspec.

The scouts shield is supposed to be the scouts Pathfinding/Beastcraft(as stated by the TL's and Mythic's vision of the respective archerclasses), as it is now the shield isn't equal in value to the respective speclines, especially not considering the greater 'bang for the buck' in speccing both hunters and rangers melee contra the scout's melee spec.

Shield/Slam is a too unreliable ability to lean on compared to the Pathfinding/Beastcraft speclines. In addition to the buffs in PF/BC, hunters get a pet to complement the bad defense(evade 2) aswell as a speedspell(both rangers and hunters get this) which can be used in both defensive aswell as offensive situations.

For some of the statements I refer to this thread, aswell as several Team Lead reports sent to Mythic which can be found at critshot.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Nemesis Warlock
Ranger:

Range 36, Dam about 100% (as middle between scout and hunter)

Buffs armor ,str ect.
speed buff
Lower meleedam output than hunter, equal to scout (more with CDual), Medium Bow dam.

Hunter:

Range 32, Dam about 75%

Buffs armor, str ect.
Pets
Highest melee dam (e), lowest bow dam.

Scout:

Range 39, Dam about 120%

no buffs
Can shield spec and learn 9s shieldstun.
Medium meleedam, Highest Bow dam.

Original archer.


So u see the scout has farest range and highest dam.

Dont let urself fool by the "buffs" of ranger / hunter

The pet of hunter is grey and the buffs are used to reach the "normal dam ect." for that class..... i .e. a buffed ranger can be compared to scout. He is not MORE powerful. A ranger without buffs is just less powerful and the buffs used to bring dam up in line with scout ect.

No offense, but most of the statements in this post is either false, inaccurate or misleading.

 

[Tranquil-]

I wish they would lower the drawtime of unbuffed archery
With a huntingbow any torcan will outdamage me when I'm unbuffed. sniff

Hm, perhaps an active ability that lowers drawtime for 1 min on a 5 min timer? :F

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by Tranquil-


No offense, but most of the statements in this post is either false, inaccurate or misleading.

Aye, you cant say say a scout does 120% bow damage, unless you get a scout with the same dps/spd/qua/con bow as a ranger, the same spec in their respective bow spec, using the same arrows, on the same target (probably best to do it with capped dex/qui from items on both chars, and self buffs if that char has any - but nowt else) and take at least 100 shots and check the difference.

 

[Alrindel]

A ranger has to be very lucky against a very unlucky scout to beat him in melee, not that it happens much any more. Scouts are also much better equipped to defend themselves against the designated archer killers, assassins, than rangers. And if you've got baseline buffs from a level 35 cleric, you have better buffs than I do with 36 pathfinding - and you don't have to recast them every ten minutes.

Make no mistake - speccable shield rocks.

 

[j000 d000d]

lol.... ranger lowest damage? I know a zerker who was beaten in melee by a ranger

 

[DocWolfe]

slam aint all its cracked up to be especially againsts assasins...

slam... evade... slam... evade... slam... miss... ooe... dead

even when you engage a LA SB the second axe always gets past.

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by Alrindel
A ranger has to be very lucky against a very unlucky scout to beat him in melee, not that it happens much any more. Scouts are also much better equipped to defend themselves against the designated archer killers, assassins, than rangers.

Except for the speed (vrrooooooooooooom)

And if you've got baseline buffs from a level 35 cleric, you have better buffs than I do with 36 pathfinding - and you don't have to recast them every ten minutes.

You can get a 50th druid and you'll have better buffs still Of course self buffs are situationally better as you don't always have a buffer to hand or they might die etc. Then again they are situationally worse if they drop out mid combat

Make no mistake - speccable shield rocks.

Aye well you have celtic dual, if scouts had the ability to spec in both shield and celtic dual, im sure some would forgoe shield spec for the higher damage output.

Comparing classes is too much like hard work, theres so many variables (How many times have you run across an alb group with 6 sec bladeturn?) really what is the point?

 

[mid_Efour]

u want to ask Xest hibby ranger about duel weild.
we setup a little meeting him and my warrior and i consistantly had my arse handed back to me by him. Rangers are nice.

Considering they can still have IP i dont think many Assasins would kill him one on 1

 

[Alrindel]

Originally posted by Meatballs
Except for the speed (vrrooooooooooooom)

No, it goes vrrooo... someone attacks you and it's cancelled.

I have never, ever successfully escaped from an RvR enemy with the ranger speed shout. Its two main uses are 1) chasing down a fleeing wounded enemy, and 2) catching up to your group if they get too far ahead.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Alrindel
A ranger has to be very lucky against a very unlucky scout to beat him in melee, not that it happens much any more. Scouts are also much better equipped to defend themselves against the designated archer killers, assassins, than rangers. And if you've got baseline buffs from a level 35 cleric, you have better buffs than I do with 36 pathfinding - and you don't have to recast them every ten minutes.

Make no mistake - speccable shield rocks.

The key is bowspeed, with your buffs your damage output with bow is much higher than scouts because of the lower drawtimes. Not that it matters, but with baseline cleric buffs you won't get any quickness either.

Shield is not very good against CD/LA as it gets a 50% penalty against it. Also your self buffs helps on evade too. Shield is great against archery, high dex modifies blockrate more than shieldspec too, so if you use your shield and face the scout shooting you you'll block alot.

In melee a ranger will kill a scout unless the scout gets in slam and some bowshots, the endurance cost and no to-hit rate on slam makes it costly and unreliable. Purge is an RA that will counter slam, there is no RA available for scouts that can directly nullify a specced ability in the rangers speclines(except IP, which works for both). And atleast not as important to scout survivability as slam. And don't forget it costs alot of skillpoints.

Rangers aren't overpowered though. Scouts just need some minor love. And archery needs love across the board.

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by Alrindel

No, it goes vrrooo... someone attacks you and it's cancelled.

I have never, ever successfully escaped from an RvR enemy with the ranger speed shout. Its two main uses are 1) chasing down a fleeing wounded enemy, and 2) catching up to your group if they get too far ahead.

you've been using it incorrectly then. Sprint out of melee range. whack button.

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by Tranquil-

Rangers aren't overpowered though. Scouts just need some minor love. And archery needs love across the board.

archery needs love against tanks perhaps, but not against my poor caster who needs a hellovalot of love!

 

[Alrindel]

you've been using it incorrectly then. Sprint out of melee range. whack button.

...get hit by ranged attack/insta-cast spell/quickcast spell.

I know how it works; I've been using it for a year.

 

[Alrindel]

Not that it matters, but with baseline cleric buffs you won't get any quickness either.

OK... a cleric with 14 Enhance, to outbuff a ranger with 36 Pathfinding. If the cleric has 30 Enhance, then he outbuffs a ranger with 50 Pathfinding.

In practical, real-world RvR terms, rangers and scouts are on an equal footing in terms of bow speed and damage.

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by old.Docwolfe
slam aint all its cracked up to be especially againsts assasins...

slam... evade... slam... evade... slam... miss... ooe... dead

even when you engage a LA SB the second axe always gets past.

'



and you think a spear is much good against an ns or an infil?

attack - evade - stunned - ......dead

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Alrindel

OK... a cleric with 14 Enhance, to outbuff a ranger with 36 Pathfinding. If the cleric has 30 Enhance, then he outbuffs a ranger with 50 Pathfinding.

In practical, real-world RvR terms, rangers and scouts are on an equal footing in terms of bow speed and damage.

I'd rather spec 36 PF than buy a second comp/account. Also 36 PF gives you more than 42 shield, aswell as 42 shield is more expensive.

Not unbuffed.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Arnor2
'



and you think a spear is much good against an ns or an infil?

attack - evade - stunned - ......dead

pet -> sprint -> speedspell -> kite

Perhaps it's hard, but the pet gives alot of options.

 

[kinag]

Hmmm, scouts got the best bow dmg no doubt, and with slam, damn they hurt even more

My hunter can solo orange ok, but damn, i played my Friar lvl 21 out in the frontier and met a scout same lvl, we teamed up and went for red trees... it ended up with the scout soloed the trees when i sat back on the hill, he actually killed red trees with his bow even without going into melee mode...

My hunter gets maybe 4 shots in including one critshot on orange mob and then the mob got about 35% - 65% hp left.. i have to turn to my spear... but that crazy scout shot 4 or 5 shots at the tree and it died...

dont know actually what you want more balanced..

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by kinag
Hmmm, scouts got the best bow dmg no doubt

No, wrong! Scouts AND Rangers have the best bow damage. Both get 16.5 dps, 5.5 speed bows, that creates the same damage considering that both of them has equal bowspec and dex.

My hunter can solo orange ok, but damn, i played my Friar lvl 21 out in the frontier and met a scout same lvl, we teamed up and went for red trees... it ended up with the scout soloed the trees when i sat back on the hill, he actually killed red trees with his bow even without going into melee mode...

Trees are low hp mobs which are very weak to slash damage. Fire wizards plow through them even easier than what archers do. I doubt he killed red con trees without meleeing them, I want to see proof of that.

Btw, lvl 50 friars can solo mobs that drop diamonds in DF. I can't.

My hunter gets maybe 4 shots in including one critshot on orange mob and then the mob got about 35% - 65% hp left.. i have to turn to my spear... but that crazy scout shot 4 or 5 shots at the tree and it died...

So inaccurate info is hard to come by. It's not even the same mobs. The scout is probably high bowspec and you are lower. He probably had a buffbot too.

dont know actually what you want more balanced..

No offense, but that seems to be more because you don't know what you are talking about.

Read all the posts before you post straight out false info. Or even better, don't post false info.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Both rangers and scouts might have access to the same speed bows, that does not automatically mean they do the same damage. I suspect that for scouts the damage cap is higher than for rangers. (Though I can't say for sure.. I don't play either class, and I'm quite happy with my huntress.)

The Hunter damage cap is 960 with Composite Bow 65 and Dex 300. (Using a 100%Q Heavy Duskwood)

 

[Tranquil-]

They have the same damage caps with the same bows according to Oaklief.

The reason many scouts might hit harder is that scouts usually spec their bowspecline higher than most rangers and that they are fully buffed aswell.

 

[Nemesis Warlock]

Originally posted by Tranquil-


No offense, but most of the statements in this post is either false, inaccurate or misleading.

bleh i dont spend my time learning my calculating daoc book by heart ;P Sure this was mainly guessings

But i play this game since oct 2001 and even in closed beta so believe me when i say ranger and hunter buffs arent THE thing that unbalances anything.

 

[Nemesis Warlock]

Originally posted by Teador
lol.... ranger lowest damage? I know a zerker who was beaten in melee by a ranger

the zerker was afk

there is no ranger that can beat a zerker in melee ... wot u thinking ?`Alone base HP and base dam dont match.

Plz all u non ranger stop giving mythic FAKE reasons to nerf us some more ;P Just play a ranger. Then ull see.