AoM and EM in 1.65+

Garbannoch

Fledgling Freddie
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Dec 27, 2003
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As you know the effectiveness of resist enhancing RAs (AoM, Empty Mind, BAoD) has been nerfed significantly with the current patch.

So my question: what do people think about them. Are they still worth taking at all or are the points spent better in some other way.

I for one will get rid off AoM2. Not sure yet if I will buy AoM1 or spec out of it completely. Personally I think BAoD will still be very good but I wouldn't take AoM higher than 1 and I wouldn't buy EM at all.
 

Eleasias

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EM was highly unused RA as it was, I dont know why they nerfed it :|. BAoD will still rock vs alb zerg though, so most high rr chanters should have it.
 

Asty

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Well i got aom1 atm and would maybe like to get it away but cba to get respec stone for 1ra point
 
P

panos

Guest
imo aom1+baod still usefull ..bout empty mind..well no1 really used it even b4:p
 

Aonnz

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Feb 3, 2004
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we should get an RA respec so we could try the nerf out if it's worth keeping ,now they take EM-MoA away and give back the points . who are gonna spend points on EM-MoA and then spend 2-4P for a respec stone if it sucks more then it's worth ? not me im broke :)
 

Garbannoch

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557
Asty said:
Well i got aom1 atm and would maybe like to get it away but cba to get respec stone for 1ra point
AoM, EM and BAoD will be removed from your RA list if you have it - you do not need a respec stone
 

Aussie

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I don't believe a shit of this stupid hype where casters suddenly get a dmg boost of 15%-20%
not sure if i'm right but this is what i calculated , i could be wrong :m00:

OLD:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26+6+16 = 48%
dmg done: 100-48% = 52dmg

NEW:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26/6+16
dmg done: (100-26%)=74
(74-22%)=74-16=58dmg


increase of 6%

but ofcourse if you are gonna convice every moron in this game to respec out of the _useless_ aom then you get your insane dmg boost :eek:
 

Casiraghi

Loyal Freddie
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Jan 7, 2004
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379
Asty said:
Well i got aom1 atm and would maybe like to get it away but cba to get respec stone for 1ra point
Dont have to get respec stone, all who has aom as ra wil have it removed and points added :)
 

stighelmer

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Jan 20, 2004
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255
What is it that has changed with AoM really ?

does

"- Spell resists from realm abilities are now displayed and applied separately to the character, which should reduce some of the extreme cases of very high resistances. As a result of this change, all players who had previously purchased the realm ability Brilliant Aura of Deflection and/or Avoidance of Magic have had these abilities removed and the costs refunded."

mean what Aussie (almost) calculated correctly ?
 

PJS

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Jan 16, 2004
Messages
494
Aussie said:
I don't believe a shit of this stupid hype where casters suddenly get a dmg boost of 15%-20%
not sure if i'm right but this is what i calculated , i could be wrong :m00:

OLD:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26+6+16 = 48%
dmg done: 100-48% = 52dmg

NEW:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26/6+16
dmg done: (100-26%)=74
(74-22%)=74-16=58dmg


increase of 6%

but ofcourse if you are gonna convice every moron in this game to respec out of the _useless_ aom then you get your insane dmg boost :eek:
You are wrong 58/52 = 1.115, increase of 11.5% :twak:
 

ceixava

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Dec 22, 2003
Messages
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aom wont be worth shit after 1.65, and baod will loose most of its effectivity (still useful tho, worth 14 points, that i dont know :p )
 

Lethul

FH is my second home
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Messages
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stighelmer said:
What is it that has changed with AoM really ?

does

"- Spell resists from realm abilities are now displayed and applied separately to the character, which should reduce some of the extreme cases of very high resistances. As a result of this change, all players who had previously purchased the realm ability Brilliant Aura of Deflection and/or Avoidance of Magic have had these abilities removed and the costs refunded."

mean what Aussie (almost) calculated correctly ?
i dont get my points for EM1 back? :(
 

ceixava

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Messages
330
Aussie said:
I don't believe a shit of this stupid hype where casters suddenly get a dmg boost of 15%-20%
not sure if i'm right but this is what i calculated , i could be wrong :m00:

OLD:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26+6+16 = 48%
dmg done: 100-48% = 52dmg

NEW:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26/6+16
dmg done: (100-26%)=74
(74-22%)=74-16=58dmg


increase of 6%

but ofcourse if you are gonna convice every moron in this game to respec out of the _useless_ aom then you get your insane dmg boost :eek:
show me a mage that uses a ~33dd value dd in rvr :(

try calculating that with ~500 or so damage

(yes yes the increase aint that big, but the main point was to remove REALLY high resists, ie baod, and thats what it does)
 

Trubble

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Jan 27, 2004
Messages
82
Aussie said:
I don't believe a shit of this stupid hype where casters suddenly get a dmg boost of 15%-20%
not sure if i'm right but this is what i calculated , i could be wrong :m00:

OLD:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26+6+16 = 48%
dmg done: 100-48% = 52dmg

NEW:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26/6+16
dmg done: (100-26%)=74
(74-22%)=74-16=58dmg


increase of 6%
As far as I know, bufs don't get nerfed, only realm ability resists. So shouldn't it look like this:

NEW:
--------
nuke: 100dmg
resists: 26+16/6
dmg done: (100-42%)=58
(58-6%)=58-3=55dmg

Meaning the more resists you have the less effective your realm ability is going to be.
 

Aussie

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ceixava said:
show me a mage that uses a ~33dd value dd in rvr :(
calculation show the % increase of your dmg, if you didnt know 100 is an easy number for that. dropped out school at 15 y m8? :m00:
 

lofff

One of Freddy's beloved
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ceixa is just slow ;p but gotta say he got a god-given touch to pick avatars
 

Outlaw

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Already respecced my AoM2&1 Toughness2 MoPowa1 MoBuffs1 and LW1 for Concentration w00t - Spamm meh !!
 

Aussie

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look at dem roomies trying to convince ppl not to retake aom :m00:
 

Laalaa

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Messages
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So rather than seek information you just speculate ? :kissit:

Prior to 1.65, resists were all added together to create a single percentage which was reduced from the damage of the appropriate type that was taken.

"For example:

"If you had 26% cold resist in items, 14% in cold resist buffs, Avoidance of Magic III (9%), and Brilliant Aura of Deflection (36%), your total resist to cold type damage would be:

"26+14+9+36=85%

"So if you were hit by a spell that did 500 cold damage, the actual damage you received after resists would be 500*(1- .85) or 75 points. The person casting the spell on you would see the damage result as 75(-425). That's the way it WAS.

"With the NEW system, resists are added into two separate categories that are applied to the damage consecutively instead of all together at once. Items, Buffs, and Racial abilities are calculated into the first resist check and Realm Abilities that affect resists are calculated in the second check.

"Using the same example as above:

"Your 26% cold resist items and 14% cold resist buffs would be counted first, so 26+14=40%.

"Then with the same 500 point cold damage spell, the calculation would be 500*(1-.40) or 300.

"That 300 would then be checked against the AoM III (9%) and BAoD (36%), so 300*(1-.45) or 165. The person casting the spell on you would see the damage as 165(-335).

"So in this case, we a spell that would have only done 75 points of damage before 1.65, now doing 165.

"This change was designed to address the rare cases of extremely high resists (65% and up), without penalizing those with low to moderate resists.(20-40%)."

Now, let me just remind everyone – the example above is JUST an example. The math in the game won't work exactly that way, because in the game, you're wearing armor, debuffs are in action, etc. But for the purposes of explaining the changes, the example needed to be as simple as possible.
 

Pin

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Messages
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If you're running with no resist buffs, AoM is worth 3% spell-damage/CC reduction per level (instead of 4.1%).
If you're running with 24% resist buffs, AoM is worth 3% spell-damage/CC reduction per level (instead of 6%).

For me, that means AoM is probably still worth buying to level 2, but other stuff are higher priority. (Hib groups running with full 16-24% resist buff might only feel level 1 is worth the points now).


As for BAoD, it's gone from a ~70-95% reduction to spell-damage/CC, down to 35%. i.e. if without it you take 100dmg, you now take 65 instead of the 5-30 you would before.

Worth it? Dunno :p
 

[NO]Magmatic

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Pin said:
As for BAoD, it's gone from a ~70-95% reduction to spell-damage/CC, down to 35%. i.e. if without it you take 100dmg, you now take 65 instead of the 5-30 you would before.

Worth it? Dunno :p
Wouldnt that calculation go like this:

26% from items
16% from buffs
----
3% from aom
35% from baod
===
64% reduction (instead of the old 93 using same values)
(I think BaOD was 35% ? )

Pretty sure BAoD adds 35% resist to group & users... So same person would almost be unkillable in 1.63, but you still have a chance now...
 

Trubble

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Messages
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Pin said:
If you're running with no resist buffs, AoM is worth 3% spell-damage/CC reduction per level (instead of 4.1%).
If you're running with 24% resist buffs, AoM is worth 3% spell-damage/CC reduction per level (instead of 6%).
Please explain how you reach these numbers. As far as I know, the new resist system applies realm ability resist after the other resists, meaning that the effect you get out of the realm ability resist will be dependent on your normal resists. So I dont see how you get 3% out of AoM both with no resists bufs and with resists bufs.

AoM gives 3% per level if you have no item resists, bufs or racial bonues.
AoM gives 2,22% per level if you have 26% resists from items, bufs, racial
AoM gives 1,74% per level if you have 26%+16% resists from items, bufs, racial.
etc.

To a hib group with 26% item resists and 24% resistbufs, BAOD will now give 18% instead of 36% resist. A nerf to BAOD, but its still worth getting imo.
 

Duivel

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Jan 9, 2004
Messages
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SIDE NOTES on Resists

Prior to 1.65, resists were all added together to create a single percentage which was reduced from the damage of the appropriate type that was taken.

"For example:

"If you had 26% cold resist in items, 14% in cold resist buffs, Avoidance of Magic III (9%), and Brilliant Aura of Deflection (36%), your total resist to cold type damage would be:

"26+14+9+36=85%

"So if you were hit by a spell that did 500 cold damage, the actual damage you received after resists would be 500*(1- .85) or 75 points. The person casting the spell on you would see the damage result as 75(-425). That's the way it WAS.

"With the NEW system, resists are added into two separate categories that are applied to the damage consecutively instead of all together at once. Items, Buffs, and Racial abilities are calculated into the first resist check and Realm Abilities that affect resists are calculated in the second check.

"Using the same example as above:

"Your 26% cold resist items and 14% cold resist buffs would be counted first, so 26+14=40%.

"Then with the same 500 point cold damage spell, the calculation would be 500*(1-.40) or 300.

"That 300 would then be checked against the AoM III (9%) and BAoD (36%), so 300*(1-.45) or 165. The person casting the spell on you would see the damage as 165(-335).

"So in this case, we a spell that would have only done 75 points of damage before 1.65, now doing 165.

"This change was designed to address the rare cases of extremely high resists (65% and up), without penalizing those with low to moderate resists.(20-40%)."

Now, let me just remind everyone – the example above is JUST an example. The math in the game won't work exactly that way, because in the game, you're wearing armor, debuffs are in action, etc. But for the purposes of explaining the changes, the example needed to be as simple as possible.
Nice amount of extra damage dont u think? :flame:
 

Pin

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Trubble said:
Please explain how you reach these numbers. As far as I know, the new resist system applies realm ability resist after the other resists, meaning that the effect you get out of the realm ability resist will be dependent on your normal resists. So I dont see how you get 3% out of AoM both with no resists bufs and with resists bufs.

AoM gives 3% per level if you have no item resists, bufs or racial bonues.
AoM gives 2,22% per level if you have 26% resists from items, bufs, racial
AoM gives 1,74% per level if you have 26%+16% resists from items, bufs, racial.
etc.
Okay... What you need to look at is the difference between having AoM, and not having AoM.

Taking the easy case. 26% item resists, 24% buff resists = 50% total resists.

Now, 200dmg hits you for 100.

Add AoM1 in 1.63, you are hit for 94... 94/100 = 0.94, so 6% reduction from AoM1.
Add AoM1 in 1.65, you are hit for 97... 97/100 = 0.97, so 3% reduction from AoM1.


And therein you see the problem with having additive resists - in 1.63 AoM, EM and BAoD gave MUCH more improvement than their stated amounts. In 1.65 (due to them being multiplicative) they now boost by the 3/5/35% values, as stated.

The same thing also applies to BoF, so instead of losing 50% damage, you lose more like 85% on plate when BoF is fired (but doesn't go to the silly extremes of BAoD (until you add ablatives and such), just because you don't get such high base absorb).
 

Ace

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Im one of the ones that droped outta skool @ 15 so feck the math wots the formula to the equasion, as a chanter do i get boad, aom again or do i get sommit else? obviously ill be getting ra's that give higher resists or dmg but...!
 

Pin

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Messages
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[TB]Magmatic said:
Wouldnt that calculation go like this:

26% from items
16% from buffs
----
3% from aom
35% from baod
===
64% reduction (instead of the old 93 using same values)
(I think BaOD was 35% ? )
Compare with BAoD to without BAoD. Yes you have a 64% total reduction, but without BAoD you would have had 44% anyway. BAoD now merely gives a 35% reduction (instead of the old 64% reduction using the same values).

(edit: no idea where you got 93 from though)
 

Trubble

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Pin said:
Okay... What you need to look at is the difference between having AoM, and not having AoM.

Taking the easy case. 26% item resists, 24% buff resists = 50% total resists.

Now, 200dmg hits you for 100.

Add AoM1 in 1.63, you are hit for 94... 94/100 = 0.94, so 6% reduction from AoM1.
Add AoM1 in 1.65, you are hit for 97... 97/100 = 0.97, so 3% reduction from AoM1.
AoM1 was 3% before patch (not 6%).
With 50% base resists, AoM1 will now be effective 1.5% (not 3%).

Resists % should be in relation to the original damage value.

Imo, of course. :D
 

[NO]Magmatic

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Pin said:
Compare with BAoD to without BAoD. Yes you have a 64% total reduction, but without BAoD you would have had 44% anyway. BAoD now merely gives a 35% reduction (instead of the old 64% reduction using the same values).

(edit: no idea where you got 93 from though)
Well looking at 'just' baod is useless now isnt it? You'd have to look at full resists pre-1.65 and post 1.65...

So taking my resists, and thinking (not sure) that baod gives 35% extra resists... In 1.65 pop'ing baod with 16% from buffs, and 1 level of aom gives you 63% 'resist' (reduction), while before 1.65 it would have been 90%...

As far as I know the amount of resist that BAoD adds is not changed in 1.65, just the way its used in the end-damage calculation is...

If you take the above example, even though baod 'is' 35%, it only actually gives 20% reduction due to its place in the calculation...

('damage' - <Racial + Item resists + buffs>) - <RA resists> = end 'damage'
(damage can be time of mez-etc too)

BAoD (unlike pre-patch) doesnt give an effective 35% anymore...
 

Pin

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Trubble said:
AoM1 was 3% before patch (not 6%).
With 50% base resists, AoM1 will now be effective 1.5% (not 3%).

Resists % should be in relation to the original damage value.

Imo, of course. :D
Why?

The question you want to answer is:
What effect does AoM have?

For that you need to look at purely the effect of adding AoM, not the effect of adding items+buffs+AoM as you're never going to be running around the frontiers naked.

AoM now makes 3% difference per level on spell effects, instead of the 4-7% before.
 

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