Advice Anyone know much about contract law?

[megadave]

Obviously freddyshouse is the first stop for legal advice so here we go:

My girlfriend works in a veterinary practice, she's contracted to 40 hours a week, which she fulfills monday-friday by working 8 hour days (unpaid break/lunch) however she also works every 1 in 3 weekends, 8 hours again on the Saturday and 7 on the Sunday; she gets the 8 hours from the Saturday back but nothing from the Sunday, no pay, no extra hours off, nothing. Anyone know how legal this is?

According to her boss "that's just the way it is" and several people have left in the past because of it, also according to her union there's nothing she can do, but obviously sounds like bollocks, I spoke to my old lady whos a judge and she agrees it sounds like bollocks, but it's not her field so she said go higher up. However she's already about to file a greivence for an unrelated matter so it's all rather difficult.

What do FH?

 

[Aoami]

If she is paid salary and contracted to do the weekends then I don't think there is anything she can do.

 

[Scouse]

A sly call to HMRC about unpaid work at a company will do the trick - they're obliged to investigate in case they're breaching working time directives (which doesn't look likely) - or minimum wage issues. Either way, it's easy to dob-em-in anonymously and will result in a spot-check - which may make the employers a little sweaty as nobody likes a call from people with more power than the police

Vets are cunts tbh. It does seem to be industry practice (went out with a vet nurse). Junior staff tend to get shat on whilst the practice owners live in lovely houses in the country and ride their horses all weekend...

Contracts often have "unpaid overtime as and when"-type clauses, which are fair enough, but this is a regular contracted-hours thang and renumeration should occur*.


*probably - but the Dob-Em-In tactic is still a good un

 

[megadave]

Don't have it to hand but the contract states something along the lines of may sometimes require working extra over weekends, but doesnt say anything about pay.


I like your idea Scouse, i think i'll do that.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Contracts sometimes also mention payment by the hour. Without seeing the contract it's really hard to see, but in a nutshell;

If you signed it, deal with it.

Otherwise you can tell them to f*ck off.

 

[Mey]

I'm contracted to work 35 hours a week my current working hours are mon-fri 9-5. My contract also states I may be required to work some saturdays. The way it works in our gaff is that if you work saturday you get time in lieu. The odd time i've worked saturday without time in lieu I was paid overtime at 1.5 rate. You should never work for free.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I love Finnish working law actually, it negates any clause in contracts made by companies to ensure you don't get screwed over and the legal system is slightly biased towards the worker.

 

[Marc]

Is she on a salaried contract? (Sounds like she is to me) This means Employers are entitled to make her work overtime with no extra pay, as long as it is reasonable. Is what she is being asked to do reasonable? I have no idea. However, if she is working 40 hours monday to friday then an extra 15 hours at the weekend, her employer is breaking the law as you are only permitted by law to work 48 hours (unless otherwise specified within her contract), which is probably why she only gets paid for the 8 on saturday (40 + 8 = 48), if he paid her the extra 7 it would mean she is being paid for 55 hours a week which is illegal.

Easiest thing to do, is get a copy of her contract that she signed and phone ACAS. They will tell you what to do.

 

[Marc]

You should never work for free.

Why?

 

[Tom]

If her contract says "work on weekends" then I'd say that the use of the word "work" implies pay.

Otherwise, they're paying below the minimum wage, which is illegal.

 

[rynnor]

Why?

Because you are disrespecting yourself and your fellow employees and destroying hard worked for rights.

 

[Raven]

You should never *be forced to* work for free.

Most people end up working late now and again, it's part of having a job. I can't fucking stand people who clock in at 8.30, not a second before and leave at 5, not a second after.

I would take issue with being expected to come in on an extra day a week, unpaid. In fact I would tell them to go fuck themselves...unless she gets a day off in the week to make up for it! But yeah, ACAS is your best bet, they were very helpful when my wife had some issues with work.

 

[Scouse]

Don't have it to hand but the contract states something along the lines of may sometimes require working extra over weekends, but doesnt say anything about pay.

If it says "may sometimes require" then the contract means that - "may". If it is an actual requirement of the job (i.e. 1 weekend in 3) then the contract doesn't fit the description of the job - and is invalid.

She should expect renumeration. IMO.


Edit: The 48 hours/week thing averages out over a month - i.e. if you work 100 hours one week, get a week off, then do two weeks of 40 hours you'll only be averaging 45 hours over that 4-week period - which is perfectly legal.

 

[DaGaffer]

Don't have it to hand but the contract states something along the lines of may sometimes require working extra over weekends, but doesnt say anything about pay.

Yeah...she's fucked. If she's a salaried employee those are the terms and conditions she signed up to. Its actually taking the piss the way they've done it, but its not strictly illegal in the UK (in other EU countries she'd have an argument under the Working Time Directive). As I said, its a bit of a piss take, and I'd push that point at salary review time, but if they won't budge she doesn't have much leverage other than a resignation letter.

If her contract says "work on weekends" then I'd say that the use of the word "work" implies pay.

Otherwise, they're paying below the minimum wage, which is illegal.

Since you don't know what she's being paid, you don't know if she's being paid below minimum wage. Its not calculated individually per hour its calculated on the average hours worked per pay period.

Because you are disrespecting yourself and your fellow employees and destroying hard worked for rights.

Bollocks. I get paid a very good salary and its not unreasonable that I'm expected to work the time it takes to get the job done on occasion rather than just downing tools at 5.30. As it happens, most days I do down tools at 5.30 these days because I have a young family, but if I need to, I work. However, I'd caveat that with the view that I don't hold with this common idea of "presenteeism", where staff think they have to be seen to work late in order to get on (even when they don't have work to do); if your boss expects that kind of behaviour he's a cunt, if your company expects it, move on.

 

[Scouse]

its not unreasonable that I'm expected to work the time it takes to get the job done on occasion

"On occasion".

If it's routine, i.e. she has to work 1 weekend in 3 - then that's regular and should be treated as a normal salaried part of the job.

 

[DaGaffer]

"On occasion".

If it's routine, i.e. she has to work 1 weekend in 3 - then that's regular and should be treated as a normal salaried part of the job.

Which is why I said they're taking the piss; but, a good employment lawyer can argue the weekend work is "on occasion" as well. Depends how its rostered.

 

[Marc]

Because you are disrespecting yourself and your fellow employees and destroying hard worked for rights.

Right ok, so everytime I stay late because im in the middle of something and want to get it done before I go home (im salaried so dont get paid for overtime), im "disrespecting myself". How does that work?

 

[Poag]

To throw in another side to the vet coin.

My GF is a vet at a local private chain of practices (4 spread over a few towns near each other)

She works 9-6 Mon-Fri. She also works some weekends, any weekend hours tho are taken a days or half days off. For example she worked Sat morning last weekend so had a morning off earlier in the week. This weekend shes working Sat and Sun. So has today off work and had a half day yesterday. They do to OT when things need covering, but its fairly reasonable 4 hour shifts (3 practice shifts, morn, afternoon and eve).

I think its really down to each vet practice as to what the deal is. The more 'local' private ones being more reasonable than the corporate chains for example.

TBH it sounds like her (megadaves misses) practice is just shit...Sorry

 

[Yoni]

I agree with Gaf. If she is salaried and her contract says she is expected to work overtime the she can not claim remuneration. Additionally UK contracts sometimes also request that you opt out of the 48 hour week (it wasn't illegal when I left the UK to do more than that anyway). Finally a salaried employee implies (normally) that you are paid to do a job not specifically for a number of hours, this is usually just an indication of the normal working hours of the organisation.

If she feels she has a case then I expect they will review hours over a period of time rather than just base it over one weekend every three weeks. As over the course of a salaried month she will not average more than that, therefore in my view she will not have a case.

A question, if she is already raising a grievance and is unhappy with her hours why doesn't she just resign?

Additionally it is well known in some professions that there are times when you just have to work to meet deadlines or just because the job demands. I do not understand why you would go into a profession like that without investigating it first. My guys for example know that they are paid to do a job. At month end we all can work way over 48 hours (when I was in NL it was regularly 60 to 70).

 

[Scouse]

If she is salaried and her contract says she is expected to work overtime the she can not claim remuneration.... in some professions that there are times when you just have to work to meet deadlines or just because the job demands...

I agree with you and Gaff on this point.

However, regular Sundays, rostered 1 week in 3, isn't "overtime". It's regular working hours.

overtime
   noun
1. working time before or after one's regularly scheduled working hours

What's being described isn't overtime - it's regularly scheduled - and therefore she should be getting paid for it.

 

[Aoami]

That's irrelephant. If she is contracted to work sundays, overtime or otherwise, and she is salaried, then she is getting paid for it.

 

[Scouse]

That's irrelephant. If she is contracted to work sundays, overtime or otherwise, and she is salaried, then she is getting paid for it.

That's just denial of the presented facts.

she's contracted to 40 hours a week, which she fulfills monday-friday by working 8 hour days (unpaid break/lunch) however she also works every 1 in 3 weekends, 8 hours again on the Saturday and 7 on the Sunday; she gets the 8 hours from the Saturday back but nothing from the Sunday, no pay, no extra hours off, nothing.

40 hour weeks. And regular 1 in 3 weekends. I presume she does overtime anyway.

It depends on the contract for the payment details. But regular Sat-Sun working isn't "overtime"...

 

[Chilly]

Can we all just leave the thread and admit we know next to fuck all about employment law? There's a very large gap between what is reasonable and what the law says.

 

[Aoami]

Its an assumption of unpresented facts. I'm sure there will be a stipulation in the contract saying she is expected to work weekends or 'weekend work may occur'. If she gets the hours from saturday in lieu but doesnt for sunday, then its staying within any 48 hour working week restrictions. Its cuntish, but contracts are in this environment. Most people i know in the UK doing low paid jobs are on 0 hour contracts so they get no holiday, and if theres no work, there is no contractual obligation to give them hours.

 

[cHodAX]

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/

and if you are still struggling then get in to see an employment specialist at your local Citizens Advice Bureau.

 

[Scouse]

Link goes to adviceguide.net m8 - placeholder

 

[TdC]

I know f/a about the law but imo that's a shit situation. I'd not even roll out of a particularly wet shart on a weekend unless my boss begged me, paid me and possibly even performed favours of a sekshual nature on me.

 

[Mey]

I'm paid a salary but I still claim overtime for any hours I work over 35 hours. I am salaried to work 35 hours a week, if the job requires me to work more than that to complete it then my employer has clearly not given me enough time or given me too much work too complete in the allotted time. My time is my own if they want me to use it to make them money then they can piss off and pay me to do it. I don't mind pulling my weight and I'm always in 15 minutes early and usually leave 15 minutes late, but to me that's reasonable.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm paid a salary but I still claim overtime for any hours I work over 35 hours. I am salaried to work 35 hours a week, if the job requires me to work more than that to complete it then my employer has clearly not given me enough time or given me too much work too complete in the allotted time. My time is my own if they want me to use it to make them money then they can piss off and pay me to do it. I don't mind pulling my weight and I'm always in 15 minutes early and usually leave 15 minutes late, but to me that's reasonable.

If you get overtime you're not "salaried", you're an hourly paid worker. Don't confuse how you're paid with the contract you're under.

 

[Mey]

Funny that because I'm pretty sure my contract says your salary will be x amount paid over 12 payments.