Question Anti-Semitism

[Scouse]

So. What IS anti-semitism?

We've had discussions around the nature of what constitutes a jew and the waters are very muddy. Accusations of racism fly - when Judaism is a religion, and jews are members of that religion, not a race all of their own. But there's a push for jews to be seen as a specific race - we've disagreed over this definition on FH before - and in my personal opinion it's because it strengthens the hand of the Israel lobby. People get jumped on for expressing opinions that aren't anti-semitic simply because they're not expressing this, in my opinion, untruthful view of what constitutes a jew.

So today's story about the vice-chair of Momentum being called on to resign for being anti-semitic - despite her and her partner being jewish - by a transport union, the TSSA - is what's got me a little peeved.

Listening to the audio (can be reached via a link in the link) - she makes reasonable points in my opinion.

If a Jewish woman can't find a definition of anti-semitism that she can work with and can't bring that opinion up without groups wanting to take her down then it seems plain to me that the objectives of many of these groups is to shut down reasonable dialogue. I get that there'll be a lot of un-reasonable things said if discussion is allowed to happen - but it doesn't justify shutting discussion down.

So, can the hotbed of high-intellectual debate that is Freddyshouse come up with a workable definition of antisemitism in the absence of one from any other source on the planet?

 

[Raven]

Any slight criticism of Israel appears to be as bad as being Hitler these days.

Just like idiots who shout racism over everything, they are diminishing the cause.

 

[DaGaffer]

First of all, that BBC article seems to have been written by a brain-damaged chimp; does anyone sub anything anymore?

Second; anti-semitism is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and always has been. Given there's no such thing as "race" in the first place, the more correct term we need to use when dealing with this type of issue is ethnicity (since it covers "racial characteristics" and culture), but even then "anti-semitism" has always had unique problems because it has evolved from "anti-Jew" to "anti-Israeli" in the last 70 years, but can still be one or the other (or both) depending on the circumstances; which of course makes it an incredibly easy accusation to throw around, by people on both sides of the argument.

 

[Wij]

On the other hand people often hide their true feelings by saying they are only anti-Zionist and that it's purely about the actions of the Isreali government but then quickly lapse into how they despise Jews and think the world is controlled by secretive Jewish cabals once the cameras are off.

 

[Scouse]

Yep. Totally accept that @Wij - but in this case it's a Jewish woman being shouted down for being anti-semitic. Is she supposed to be a self-hater?

Yes, there are antisemites out there, but the inability to criticise israeli policy, or bring up salient points plays right into the hands of antisemites and is likely to create a bigger problem IMO. No good came out of spreading bullshit.

 

[Wij]

Yep. Totally accept that @Wij - but in this case it's a Jewish woman being shouted down for being anti-semitic. Is she supposed to be a self-hater?

Yes, there are antisemites out there, but the inability to criticise israeli policy, or bring up salient points plays right into the hands of antisemites and is likely to create a bigger problem IMO. No good came out of spreading bullshit.

Not read the details but it wouldn't surprise me from Momentum. Some hateful views in the far-left...

(still not read the details though...)

 

[gohan]

All religions are bull shit! I'm anti sky fairy.. Although aren't there two types of jew? As in practicing and secular? Isn't it something weird like it follows the maternal line? So it's not racial per se because you could have the exact same amount of Jewish blood if it's from your dad but not be considered Jewish (race rather than religion)

Can't remember the exact details but it's something utterly retarded along those lines.

Which imo nullifies any racial claims as it's nothing to do with genetics

 

[Scouse]

Jewish blood

Doesn't exist. How can blood sign up to a religion?

 

[gohan]

Because in the old testament you had the 12 tribes etc and their descendants where the ones destined for heaven. Some people still believe in that shit

 

[Anastasia]

What's she meant have said that is anti-semitic? Some comment about jews from history financing businesses? How is that anti-semitic? Not being comfortable with certain current definitions of anti-semitism? Again, how is that evidence of any anti-semitic sentiment? Clearly an agenda being followed behind the standard political coward's mask of "being correct". Fucking impossible to be honest about anything in this shit-hole country any more without some mealy-mouthed cunt calling you out for offending some group or other.

 

[Raven]

There are lots of different versions of the Jewish religion, as per all religions. Which is why none of them can call themselves the true version.

It is ofc all made up anyway and there should be freedom to criticise all religions equally. Religion is a poisonous and should be eradicated wherever it is found.

 

[Job]

Very troubling, but not unexpected, the Holocaust has been ring fenced by the thought police, to the extent that any intellectual discussion that is even remotely connected to it can end your career.
Of course this book burning of thought has the obvious effect of feeding more anti jewishism.
It is illegal in Germany to deny the Holocaust.
How the living fuck did that law get passed.

 

[gohan]

Why would you deny it tho? It's an odd law but it's accountability I guess. I do agree though, the Jews have had a pretty tough time throughout all of history but that doesn't suddenly mean diagreeing with a point or questioning practices is a hate crime. Far too many eggshells when they're just as bat shit as the other religions

 

[Shagrat]

This does smack more of some inner pogrom within momentum and the jewish 'thing' being used as an excuse. Like others have said im very uncomfortable with how this whole subject area seems to be becoming a subject that almost cannot be discussed anymore.

 

[Job]

Have you seen them all at his funeral, skull caps on, lining up to shed a tear at the coffin, Obama, Clinton, Charles , Blair.
WTF power has the jewish lobby got, it's Nelson blow up kids Mandela again.
The guy was a cunt in charge of a genocidal , invading country and they have spun it around to peacemaker, Mother Teresa is a saint, Pol Pot next I presume.
It's like a massive force is sat in waiting for anyone to dare question it.

 

[Scouse]

OK, I think @Job is anti-clothing. Burkhas, skull-caps, assless chaps. He doesn't like any of them!




Apart from the assless chaps. Which he wears when he's alone.

 

[ECA]

I don't see what the problem is, sure it's a free to play dota/league ripoff but whatever. People can play what they want.

 

[Job]

This does smack more of some inner pogrom within momentum and the jewish 'thing' being used as an excuse. Like others have said im very uncomfortable with how this whole subject area seems to be becoming a subject that almost cannot be discussed anymore.

Bit like muslim immigration

 

[Job]

OK, I think @Job is anti-clothing. Burkhas, skull-caps, assless chaps. He doesn't like any of them!




Apart from the assless chaps. Which he wears when he's alone.

Aaand my point get's proven in record time.
Anyway, whats wrong with assless chaps, not anti gay are you scouse, homophobic slurs just slip out don't they.
Using gay culture references to put people down.
Reveals a bit of prejudice there, or maybe supressed desires.

 

[Scouse]

Aaand my point get's proven in record time.

You made a point about them wearing skull caps - which at a jewish funeral would be a sign of respect.

Wouldn't you show your respect at a funeral you attended even if you don't follow their beliefs? For instance: I stand and bow my head at religious funerals when others pray. I don't start shouting that they're all being fucking idiots or make pfffft sounds whilst admiring the nice stained glass windows.

Your point isn't proven - you're simply seeing things through weird lenses and then going "pffft, skull-caps"...

 

[Job]

Don't change the subject gay hater.

 

[Gwadien]

Lol Job, youre the one changing the subject, hun.

The problem with anti-Semitism and Israel is that theyre two seperate entities but they roll together. You can't disagree with one witbout disagreeing with the other and therefore you are an anti-Semite.

However seperate from the association with Israel, anti-Semitism in this country right now is being used as a racist card+1. If a Jewish person has a problem just say it's anti Semitism and youre all dandy.

The only reason we have this view is because of 1600 years or so of anti Semitism (although the phrase was coined alot more recently.) Problem is that due to the holocaust happening and then the world taking the oppositional approach to fascist politics. As a western society we decided to go full flogged liberalism for this matter (this can only explain the reason why Jews are saintly yet its okay to shoot black people for instance.)

From an academic perspective, Israel will start world war 3 due to their pre emptive Samson policy thing. Israel found gas in the Golan Heights which rivals the amount of oil in Saudi Arabia, Russia said they'd militarily back up Israel for a cut, Israel declined and 24 hours later Russia sent troops into Syria, so you do the maths.

Slightly off topic, I know, but the European and American blind pro-Israel liberalism will eventually cause death on an unprecedented scale, which is Alanis Morisette

 

[CorNokZ]

Imagine a world without religion. What a bliss that would be

 

[georgie]

OK, I think @Job is anti-clothing. He doesn't like any of them!

Apart from the assless chaps. Which he wears when he's alone.

I don't see what the problem is

*Checks Username, sees it's @ECA*

Yup. Checks out okay.

 

[ECA]

*Checks Username, sees it's @ECA*

Yup. Checks out okay.

@georgie I do hope you read the whole line I wrote

 

[DaGaffer]

Have you seen them all at his funeral, skull caps on, lining up to shed a tear at the coffin, Obama, Clinton, Charles , Blair.
WTF power has the jewish lobby got, it's Nelson blow up kids Mandela again.
The guy was a cunt in charge of a genocidal , invading country and they have spun it around to peacemaker, Mother Teresa is a saint, Pol Pot next I presume.
It's like a massive force is sat in waiting for anyone to dare question it.

Actually Shimon Peres was just about the last Israeli leader who actually tried to fix anything. Certainly better than Netanyahu, who's just like the worst human being on Earth

 

[georgie]

@georgie I do hope you read the whole line I wrote

I did, but it was too good to pass up.

 

[Gwadien]

Imagine a world without religion. What a bliss that would be

Frankly, I think that's kind of proven to be bullshit, I think humanity is just too dumb really, we need an Independence Day event in order to achieve some peace.

I mean look at the last time the world was going to nuke itself apart, not much to do with traditional religion really.

 

[Job]

I'm not sure how it would be, can the entire human race deal with the indifference of the universe, the pointlessness of existence and the coming singularity of knowledge.
I think the end game for civilisation after the last new thing is done, is to wail for daddy to make it better.
Someone once said ' we need to find aliens so we can face the void together'.
Belief that someone is watching us, has a plan and that our suffering has some meaning will never go away and may be all we have in the end.

 

[Job]

Bit like muslim immigration

Another point proven on the spot.
Jews are under attack...not from intelluctual breakdowns of their status, but from increasing muslim influence in the country.
They will be forced out of Europe by an unconstrained influx of the most bigotted forms of Qoran belief.
Unless it starts a European war first.
We sack a woman for thought crimes while letting in millions of the most racist people on the planet.
You couldn't make it up.
A little bit hysterical perhaps, but he's not far off the mark.
Europe warned Brexit could see all Jews flee the continent within 30 years