Ancient Egypt

[Wij]

Just to spark off a debate with a deliberately controversial question:

What race were the Ancient Egyptians?

 

[Raven]

A mixture of North African and Greek types I think.

 

[Turamber]

They were Egyptian funnily enough. From the time of Alexander the Great to the sixth century AD much of the elite was ethnically Greek, but during the Byzantine period at least there was little liking for them amongst the native populace.

When the Arabs invaded the native populace sided with them against their Byzantine overlords, who had given them little in the way of religious freedom and persecuted them for their heterodox Christian beliefs. The Greek ruling class eventually sailed away from Alexandria leaving it in the hands of the conquerors.

Although a lot of Egyptians would now consider themselves to be, ethnically, Arabs it is likely that much of their genetic material is inherited from the native Egyptians who sided with the invaders. Certainly many of the practices of ancient Egypt are alive and well in the Coptic Church.

Their liturgical language is said to be extremely close to ancient Egyptian, they use the ankh as their cross and during baptism they bless the same parts of the body that the ancient Egyptians considered to be most important, and would mark with charms in mummified bodies.

Sorry for the digression, but I do find Egypt/Byzantium/origins of modern Christianity particularly interesting.

 

[Ch3tan]

Google says: What Race Were the Ancient Egyptians?

 

[DaGaffer]

Given that we now know populations stay remarkably consistent over time and the legacy of most invaders is cultural rather than genetic, then whatever Egyptians are now, is probably pretty similar to what they were then,

 

[cHodAX]

I saw a documentary once that said they were a race called the Goa'uld.

 

[TdC]

I thought they were Byzantian, but I'm not sure that's a race tbh.

 

[mooSe_]

All of my knowledge of history comes from the age of empires series and I'm not sure this was covered so I can't help.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

There were a lot of 'black' Africans:

Black Pharaohs - National Geographic Magazine

 

[DaGaffer]

I thought they were Byzantian, but I'm not sure that's a race tbh.

Byzantium is the old name for the Eastern Roman Empire; Greeks basically. They ran Egypt until the arabs invaded in the 600s but they weren't the bulk of the natives. The late pharoes (e.g. Cleopatra and the Ptolemys) were decended from earlier Greek invaders (Macedonians - Alexander's lot), but the lads who built the pyramids weren't. Egypt was essentially in foreign ownership of one sort or another from the 7th century BC until the 1950s; Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Greeks again, Arabs, Ottomans, British, and I've probably missed a few others.

 

[Turamber]

I thought they were Byzantian, but I'm not sure that's a race tbh.

Pretty much what DeGaffer said. "Byzantine" was a term first coined by French historians in the 17th century to describe the Christian Medieval Roman Empire.

The citizens of that Empire would have called themselves, politically, Roman even if ethnically they were not Italian, let alone Roman. The whole concept of race and nationality is much more complex than people, generally, think.

 

[Gumbo]

They were spacemen, only way the pyramids could have been built, everyone knows that.

 

[Aoami]

There were a lot of 'black' Africans:

Black Pharaohs - National Geographic Magazine

black people... in africa? whatever next!

 

[Wij]

They were spacemen, only way the pyramids could have been built, everyone knows that.

You've made the mistake of treating Serious Sam as an action documentary I think.

Otherwise, carry on folks...

 

[old.user4556]

Weren't they all white in the same way that the historic evidence of Jesus Christ proved he had blue eyes, blonde hair and fair skin?*





























*possible satire

 

[Wij]

btw - while we're on the subject, there's a doc on ramses ii on five at 7:55 tonight.

carry on...

 

[mooSe_]

Byzantines were a civ in age of empires II so I think that says it all.

 

[TdC]

Byzantium is the old name for the Eastern Roman Empire; Greeks basically. They ran Egypt until the arabs invaded in the 600s but they weren't the bulk of the natives. The late pharoes (e.g. Cleopatra and the Ptolemys) were decended from earlier Greek invaders (Macedonians - Alexander's lot), but the lads who built the pyramids weren't. Egypt was essentially in foreign ownership of one sort or another from the 7th century BC until the 1950s; Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Greeks again, Arabs, Ottomans, British, and I've probably missed a few others.

Pretty much what DeGaffer said. "Byzantine" was a term first coined by French historians in the 17th century to describe the Christian Medieval Roman Empire.

The citizens of that Empire would have called themselves, politically, Roman even if ethnically they were not Italian, let alone Roman. The whole concept of race and nationality is much more complex than people, generally, think.

cheers fellows

 

[rynnor]

The Ancient Egyptians were basically the same racial stock as the Modern Egyptians but they were ruled for about a century by a sucession of Nubian Emporers and there must have been a fair bit of mixture - the bust of Nefertiti certainly has a mixed Black African appearance.

I dont think its massively important either way - their legacy is in monuments and echoes of an amazing cultural richness that not even time could erase completely.

 

[Wij]

The Ancient Egyptians were basically the same racial stock as the Modern Egyptians but they were ruled for about a century by a sucession of Nubian Emporers and there must have been a fair bit of mixture - the bust of Nefertiti certainly has a mixed Black African appearance.

I dont think its massively important either way - their legacy is in monuments and echoes of an amazing cultural richness that not even time could erase completely.

Don't quite get the logic. Nubian rule over Egypt was the 25th Dynasty. Nefertiti was towards the end of the 18th.

 

[Wij]

The Ramses documentary was quite good tonight but calling him the greatest pharoah was unjustified imo. Thutmose III set up the whole basis for the Egyptian Empire in the New Kingdom that Ramses inherited. Sure, Kamose and Ahmose took Egypt back from the Hyksos with lesser technology (Egypt had no war chariots or composite bows) but they always had more resources than the Hyksos. They just needed them well organised. Thutmose I may have pushed the empire as far out as Thutmose III did but he had no clue how to hold on to it. Thutmose III revolutionised the army, set up intelligence in his enemies, started the policy of occupying borderlands with his rivals and made sure his strongest enemies were pitted against each other. All the strong, wealthy kings of the 18th and 19th dynasties owed Thutmose everything.

</fanboi>

Sorry, tangent

We can do a greatest pharoah thread if you like

 

[rynnor]

Don't quite get the logic. Nubian rule over Egypt was the 25th Dynasty. Nefertiti was towards the end of the 18th.

Oh I wasnt trying to link them as contemporaneous just as examples of the links between Egypt and Black Africa.

 

[Wij]

Oh I wasnt trying to link them as contemporaneous just as examples of the links between Egypt and Black Africa.

So Egypt isn't part of Black Africa ?

 

[DaGaffer]

So Egypt isn't part of Black Africa ?

Well, no. Sub-Saharan Africa is the general definition of "Black Africa". Certainly in the modern context.

 

[Wij]

So Sudanese people aren't black ?

 

[DaGaffer]

So Sudanese people aren't black ?

That's the line isn't it? Heard of Darfour? It may be an arbitrary thing, but there's a black/christian v. "north african"/moslem dividing line all the way across Africa. Their actual colour is slightly besides the point. Its a cultural thing.

 

[Wij]

That's the line isn't it? Heard of Darfour? It may be an arbitrary thing, but there's a black/christian v. "north african"/moslem dividing line all the way across Africa. Their actual colour is slightly besides the point. Its a cultural thing.

OK - but that's now, after the arabisation of North Africa. What about before that? During the Old, Middle and New Kingdoms for instance.

 

[rynnor]

OK - but that's now, after the arabisation of North Africa. What about before that? During the Old, Middle and New Kingdoms for instance.

It used to be a lot closer to Egypt - at their southern borders but the climate changed becoming dryer and the Sahara grew forcing the Black African kingdoms south. Thats my understanding anyway.

 

[Turamber]

OK - but that's now, after the arabisation of North Africa. What about before that? During the Old, Middle and New Kingdoms for instance.

The culture of North Africa and the rest of the continent has always been very different. Not just because of the European Roman influence, you had the Carthaginians/Phoenicians before them and the Berbers too.

Interestingly (well, slightly) Numidia was a Berber kingdom, although the modern perception of Numidians is that they are all black.

 

[Furr]

Persia, Ceylon, Mesopotamia, Zaire

Much better country names than what these countries are now known as.