Ancient Egypt

[Roo Stercogburn]

Just to spark off a debate with a deliberately controversial question:

What race were the Ancient Egyptians?

The original question is misleading. To answer properly, perhaps you need to specify the point in time to which you are referring as it changed many times depending on which race was conquering at the time.

The Egyptians were building pyramids when the Greeks were still running around in loincloths poking each other with sharp sticks

Still, interesting subject. A few years ago I went to the Louvre and had a very interesting time puttering around the Egyptian exhibits. As my mate big Darth is fond of saying, "Impressive, most impressive."

 

[Wij]

The original question is misleading. To answer properly, perhaps you need to specify the point in time to which you are referring as it changed many times depending on which race was conquering at the time.

The Egyptians were building pyramids when the Greeks were still running around in loincloths poking each other with sharp sticks

Still, interesting subject. A few years ago I went to the Louvre and had a very interesting time puttering around the Egyptian exhibits. As my mate big Darth is fond of saying, "Impressive, most impressive."

I never said the question was a fair one

Answer it in your own way.

 

[DaGaffer]

The Egyptians were building pyramids when the Greeks were still running around in loincloths poking each other with sharp sticks

That depends on whether you regard Minoans as Greek or not.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

That depends on whether you regard Minoans as Greek or not.

Thats a very interesting question. I went off and did some reading.

According to the Oxford classical dictionary Minoan culture rose around 3000 BC and they were centered around Crete but (if I've read this correctly) the culture/race we consider Greek were mainly based on Balkan migrations. The question arising from this I guess is "What makes an ancient Greek an ancient Greek", not unlike the core question of what makes an ancient Egyptian an ancient Egyptian.

Really, the only answer I keep coming back to is "It depends when you look at it and how far back you go."

Cnossos had a bad episode with sea water and that was pretty much it for the Minoans from what I've read.

Egyptian culture greatly predates the era of the Minoans and the Greek influence only occured around the time of Alexander the Great when he was busy doing what he did best: conquering. When Alexander died and Ptolemy become ze big boss of that most famous beachfront property called Egypt, Ptolemy and his fellow Greek rulers only put the venear of Greek culture over Egypt for the duration of their influence. (This last part I'm pretty much paraphrasing what I read).

Arguably best discussion topic on FH this year

 

[Kami]

Persia, Ceylon, Mesopotamia, Zaire

Much better country names than what these countries are now known as.

I always think the same when reading up about ancient history, why change a very cool name to something crap!

 

[Turamber]

"What makes an ancient Greek an ancient Greek

There was much scholarly discussion in the 19th century and the majority view was that Albanians are closer genetically to ancient Greeks than the population of Greece. It isn't a very popular view amongst Greeks and is political anathema to repeat

The view is mostly based on the number of Slavic invasions in the sixth and seventh centuries, where whole tribes moved south over the Danube and stayed, interbreeding with native Greeks.

The Albanian people, it is thought, withdrew into the mountains and re-appear in (Byzantine) recorded history around the 12th and 13th centuries with a language showing a subtle mix of Greek, Latin and Slavic tongues.

This is also not a popular view with modern Albanians who see themselves as the successors of the Illyrian people, completely ignoring the fact that the Greeks of Epirus lived side by side with the Illyrians for centuries.

History, politics and modern concepts of nationalism do not always make very good bed fellows.

 

[DaGaffer]

Thats a very interesting question. I went off and did some reading.

According to the Oxford classical dictionary Minoan culture rose around 3000 BC and they were centered around Crete but (if I've read this correctly) the culture/race we consider Greek were mainly based on Balkan migrations. The question arising from this I guess is "What makes an ancient Greek an ancient Greek", not unlike the core question of what makes an ancient Egyptian an ancient Egyptian.

Really, the only answer I keep coming back to is "It depends when you look at it and how far back you go."

Which is certainly how modern Greeks see it; and happily take Minoan culture and attic Greek as their ancestry even though the two are pretty much unrelated (and modern Greeks have a lot of...whisper it...Turk in them anyway).

Cnossos had a bad episode with sea water and that was pretty much it for the Minoans from what I've read.

The Santorini explosion, which some archeologists reckon may have been the source of the Moses/Red Sea legend.

Egyptian culture greatly predates the era of the Minoans and the Greek influence only occured around the time of Alexander the Great when he was busy doing what he did best: conquering. When Alexander died and Ptolemy become ze big boss of that most famous beachfront property called Egypt, Ptolemy and his fellow Greek rulers only put the venear of Greek culture over Egypt for the duration of their influence. (This last part I'm pretty much paraphrasing what I read).

Although Egyptian culture is older, your line was "The Egyptians were building pyramids when the Greeks were still running around in loincloths poking each other with sharp sticks", which isn't quite true because the pyramid builders and the Minoans were contemporaries.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Although Egyptian culture is older, your line was "The Egyptians were building pyramids when the Greeks were still running around in loincloths poking each other with sharp sticks", which isn't quite true because the pyramid builders and the Minoans were contemporaries.

Fair enough.

Reading does tend to suggest it is innacurate to think of the Minoans as Greeks but I've not delved deep enough to say with any great authority.

She Who Must Be Adored has a degree in classics so we have some great reading material to hand. It was interesting to go dig some of it out and have a look at the connections.

 

[rynnor]

History, politics and modern concepts of nationalism do not always make very good bed fellows.

Yes - sadly much of our historical knowledge has been twisted by various nationalistic interpretations and egotistical interpretations.

One interesting question that illustrates this is - who discovered the American continent?

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes - sadly much of our historical knowledge has been twisted by various nationalistic interpretations and egotistical interpretations.

One interesting question that illustrates this is - who discovered the American continent?

Proto-Siberians most likely.

 

[Bahumat]

Just to spark off a debate with a deliberately controversial question:

What race were the Ancient Egyptians?

They were Americans cause Mythic made Trials of Atlantis and that's pretty much Egypt. My mate went to Egypt and he had to kill all these scorpians and snakes for credit!

 

[rynnor]

Proto-Siberians most likely.

Yup - probably crossed the land bridge across what is now the baring strait.

 

[Turamber]

(and modern Greeks have a lot of...whisper it...Turk in them anyway)

I would think it is is probably more accurate to say that the modern Turk has a lot of Greek genetic material in them. They certainly look nothing like the peoples of Turkmenistan or their cousins the Mongols. The domination of the Greek/Anatolian tribes and intermingling of the blood lines commenced almost immediately after Manzikert in 1071.

There is a prescient passage in The Alexiad when a young mix raced Turk shouts insults in bastardised Greek at the Emperor and Anna Comnenus wonders what the future holds for Asia Minor.

The modern Greek nation, as I mentioned in my post above, has more than its fair share of slavic DNA. Some of the "purist" Greek material coming from the Anatolian Greeks who stayed separate from the Turks and were ejected from the country in the population swap that took place after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[Wij]

Egyptian culture greatly predates the era of the Minoans and the Greek influence only occured around the time of Alexander the Great when he was busy doing what he did best: conquering. When Alexander died and Ptolemy become ze big boss of that most famous beachfront property called Egypt, Ptolemy and his fellow Greek rulers only put the venear of Greek culture over Egypt for the duration of their influence. (This last part I'm pretty much paraphrasing what I read).

Arguably best discussion topic on FH this year

Egyption proto-dynastic period kicked off around 3000BC also. Pyramid-building peaked around 2500BC in the 4th dynasty, which as noted, is very much in-line with Minoan culture. A good 1500 years or so before Homer though and roughly 2000 years before classical Athens.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Egyption proto-dynastic period kicked off around 3000BC also. Pyramid-building peaked around 2500BC in the 4th dynasty, which as noted, is very much in-line with Minoan culture. A good 1500 years or so before Homer though and roughly 2000 years before classical Athens.

As DaGaffer said, it depends on if you want to count Minoans as Greeks, but aye, good points.

 

[old.user4556]

This is a good thread. Wij, you've started a couple of good 'uns lately, makes me want to get educated on Egyptology.

 

[Wij]

You can start off with some wikipedia although you won't become an expert from there as the articles are only of moderate quality.

Should be enough to let you memorise the order of kings in the 18th, 19th and 20th dynasties by heart though

Here's an easy one to start with, the 20th:

Setnahkte
Ramses 3
Ramses 4
Ramses 5
Ramses 6
Ramses 7
Ramses 8
Ramses 9
Ramses 10
Ramses 11

 

[Tom]

If you have good source material Wij you could help by improving those Wiki articles I can help tutor you through the basics of Wikipedia.

I'm working on Blackbeard right now, nothing like a good bit of piratey goodness.

 

[Ch3tan]

If you have good source material Wij you could help by improving those Wiki articles I can help tutor you through the basics of Wikipedia.

I'm working on Blackbeard right now, nothing like a good bit of piratey goodness.

In that article it says "The Great Allen was ordered to move closer to the short of Saint Vincent," under the sub-heading "teach the pirate", should that not be the "shore"?

 

[DaGaffer]

If you have good source material Wij you could help by improving those Wiki articles I can help tutor you through the basics of Wikipedia.

I'm working on Blackbeard right now, nothing like a good bit of piratey goodness.

I think the reference to Blackbeard appearing in Watchmen is wrong; Tales of The Black Freighter doesn't feature Blackbeard specifically if I remember rightly. Also, another literary reference would be Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle.

 

[Tom]

In that article it says "The Great Allen was ordered to move closer to the short of Saint Vincent," under the sub-heading "teach the pirate", should that not be the "shore"?

Typo, quite correct and well spotted.

I think the reference to Blackbeard appearing in Watchmen is wrong; Tales of The Black Freighter doesn't feature Blackbeard specifically if I remember rightly. Also, another literary reference would be Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle.

That section is largely bullshit really, hence the big blue tag. In the "Modern view" section I've only really gotten as far as the end of the 1st 2nd and 4th paragraphs, everything else is the old jumbled mess I'm slowly hatcheting to death. When you consider that this was the article only a few weeks back, you can see how much work I've had to do To be honest, I'm not sure that an appearance in Watchmen is really that relevant to Blackbeard, its more relevant to Watchmen.

I'm waiting for another two books to arrive. The primary book I've used as a framework is 36 years old and one or two facts will be out of date by now.

 

[rynnor]

You picked a tough subject this time Tom - so much myth and a great lack of facts.

How come no-one knows when he was born? If he was really born in Bristol it should be recorded in one of the parishes and thus be findable with some small effort - or was teach/thatch an assumed name?

 

[Ch3tan]

It states in the article that pirates used aliases to protect their real family name from shame. So, yes, teach was probably an assumed name.