Alternative fuel? - would this work

[Delboy]

Some artificial mini black holes might allow us to steal energy from somewhere else.

 

[Lester]

<serious question by science noob>

Couldn't the power of the sun be harnessed in space and delivered to earth somehow? The Sun being more powerful in space I imagine?

 

[Testin da Cable]

well, to rain on your parade the costs would outweigh the gains untill the rendament can be raised up to acceptable levels.

in a book I once read, orbital satelites caught solar energy (solar wind or whatever), condensed it into a stream of some sort and beamed that to a ground based grid. believable enough, but you'd need a massive tech level to make it happen.

 

[Wij]

You could do it in Sim City 2000 iirc

 

[Testin da Cable]

I once read somewhere "if you can think of it, then you can do it".
some truth in that...once the tech is there

 

[tris-]

Originally posted by Delboy
Some artificial mini black holes might allow us to steal energy from somewhere else.

a machine is being made that will make tiny black holes that will last about 1/100th of a second. the only energy that black holes give out is hawkings radiation but it takes billions of years before that it starts to be emited

 

[Wij]

What we should do is attach generators to women's gobs and men's mice.

 

[Maljonic]

Originally posted by Testin da Cable
I once read somewhere "if you can think of it, then you can do it".
some truth in that...once the tech is there

you mean Tia Carrera can be my girlfriend... shit, the tech isn't there

 

[Wij]

It depends what you mean by "you can do it."

If you mean that if you can think it then it then it's logically possible then it's a true statement, albeit a very trivial one.

If you mean it is possible given the laws of nature then it's not true. You can think of things which you could never do - if you think pretty hard.

 

[Maljonic]

yes but what we think of as the limits of the laws of nature now may, and most likely will, change in the future. What the mind can conceive the body will achieve... You have to imagine something that doesn't exist to invent something, so every imagined hypothosis is a potential future invention.

 

[Maljonic]

Originally posted by Wij


If you mean it is possible given the laws of nature then it's not true. You can think of things which you could never do - if you think pretty hard.

like pulling Tia Carrera this side of doom's day

 

[Testin da Cable]

Originally posted by Wij
It depends what you mean by "you can do it."

If you mean that if you can think it then it then it's logically possible then it's a true statement, albeit a very trivial one.

If you mean it is possible given the laws of nature then it's not true. You can think of things which you could never do - if you think pretty hard.

exactly

Originally posted by [ROT]Maljonic

yes but what we think of as the limits of the laws of nature now may, and most likely will, change in the future. What the mind can conceive the body will achieve... You have to imagine something that doesn't exist to invent something, so every imagined hypothosis is a potential future invention.

not quite, as nature's limits will never change. man (should) may become more creative with overcoming certain barriers though

 

[bodhi]

The best test for an alternative fuel is :-



Can you imagine it in a Ferrari?

 

[Maljonic]

Originally posted by Testin da Cable
exactly



not quite, as nature's limits will never change. man (should) may become more creative with overcoming certain barriers though

I didn't say nature's limits would change, I said what we think are nature's limits...

 

[Mr. 47]

when a coveylant* bond breaks it takes in energy (positive enthalpy) and when a bond is made it gives out energy (negative enthalpy)

So...

if hydrogen and oxygen, H-H and O=O, was broken down and then reformed as H-O-H (water), it would not only have its only emmision as water but also provide energy


H-H + H-H + O=O --> H-O-H + H-O-H

Broken:
2x H-H = 435 x 2 = 870 Kjmol-1
1x O=O = 498 Kjmol-1
Tot: 1368 Kjmol-1

Made:
4x O-H = -427 x 4 = -1708 Kjmol-1
Tot: -1708 Kjmol-1

1368 - 1708 = -340 Kjmol-1


That means that 340 Kj of energy can be created from 36 grams of hydrogen and oxygen. . . . . .

now all I need is a reliable way of storing the Hydrogen...

 

[~YuckFou~]

tschh, boffins

 

[Maljonic]

:sleeping:

 

[Mr. 47]

and also, hv (photons) can be used to break down moliqules and release energy, this happens all the time in the OZone Layer... and as a result energy is releaced

 

[GypsyCurse]

no offense meant Mr.47 but is english your first language?

 

[Wij]

Originally posted by Mr. 47
when a coveylant* bond breaks it takes in energy (positive enthalpy) and when a bond is made it gives out energy (negative enthalpy)

So...

if hydrogen and oxygen, H-H and O=O, was broken down and then reformed as H-O-H (water), it would not only have its only emmision as water but also provide energy


H-H + H-H + O=O --> H-O-H + H-O-H

Broken:
2x H-H = 435 x 2 = 870 Kjmol-1
1x O=O = 498 Kjmol-1
Tot: 1368 Kjmol-1

Made:
4x O-H = -427 x 4 = -1708 Kjmol-1
Tot: -1708 Kjmol-1

1368 - 1708 = -340 Kjmol-1


That means that 340 Kj of energy can be created from 36 grams of hydrogen and oxygen. . . . . .

now all I need is a reliable way of storing the Hydrogen...

And of course we have to get the Hydrogen from somewhere.

 

[Maljonic]

maybe he's so good at science that his spelling goes out of the window

 

[GypsyCurse]

Originally posted by Wij
And of course we have to get the Hydrogen from somewhere.

didn't you know? there's plenty all over the shop - the sun for instance, there's a nice friendly abundant source...

of course, you could extract it by electrolysis - which is what we do conventionally, but then you're just chucking in the energy needed to split the O-H bonds which you're later going to reform (and get the exact same energy back from) - not something you'd want to do at home anyhow

and if the risk of explosion from either gas doesn't put you off, the necessary 2500°C for steam electrolysis may prove a tad impractical

 

[Maljonic]

Earth first, make Mars our bitch!

 

[bodhi]

Originally posted by GypsyCurse
didn't you know? there's plenty all over the shop - the sun for instance, there's a nice friendly abundant source...

Good idea! Care to tell us how we get the hydrogen from the sun without getting fried to a crisp?

 

[GypsyCurse]

hence the sarcasm solar flares can toast pretty much any man-made substance - and they're significantly cooler than the temperatures at the heart of the sun where gaseous hydrogen can be found... far from 'friendly'

heh, and Hydrogen is already fecking expensive - steam electrolysys costs a bomb, somehow I reckon a sun-proof rocket were we ever able to cobble such a contraption together, might be even pricier

 

[Maljonic]

did you know the centre of an atomic explosion is hotter than the centre of the sun? Perhaps we could somehow harness that... oh wait, nuclear reactors

 

[GypsyCurse]

that's a real understatement - the hypocenter of a nuclear explosion (i.e. a bomb) - which is basically the untethered equivalent of a controlled nuclear reaction is about 300 million degrees celsius, whereas the sun is only a peachy 15 million degrees C. Not even balmy by comparison.

The point still stands though - theres no known material which can handle temperatures even in that order of magnitude and even if you found something which could take the heat, the bombardment of subatomic particles would involve the materials themselves in the reaction, turning whatever it was into nuclear fodder.

So basically, if anyone were to ever work out a way of squirting water into the heart of a nuclear reactor and safely extracting hydrogen and water they'd be very rich - and we'll all have popped our clogs many moons prior.

Hmm, what about plant and vegetable oils? Didn't they show something on top gear a few months ago where a chap was putting some kind of fuel additive into rapeseed oil and it running fine in unmodified diesel cars or something?

 

[Maljonic]

yeah that's true, lots of people im Wales were buying tonnes of cooking oil from Tesco and using it in their cars; the only thing was they smelt like a mobile fish 'n chip van

 

[PhaZeY]

Originally posted by Lester
<serious question by science noob>

Couldn't the power of the sun be harnessed in space and delivered to earth somehow? The Sun being more powerful in space I imagine?

There is a project in Japan called "Solar Bird" that is doing just this. (sorry is this has already been stated, i ain't finished the thread yet).

./P

 

[Wij]

I bet you could power tonnes of stuff from the steam given off from a load of elephant spunk in a nuclear explosion. 'fink about it !