All Crafters (lgm) Read This

[Vell]

The problem here is not that people undercharge. The problem is that we are FORCED to undercharge.

The problem is, that when someone places an order for MP goodies, you end up with vault fulls of 99% stuff.

You can either:

sit on these items, doing no good to anyone and taking up vaulable vault space
OR
sell them to the merchants for very small amount of money
OR
try sell them off to other people.



But people won't buy 99 stuff when they want MP, if we charge too much. So if we try sell the 99 stuff, we either do it for a low price to get rid of them, or don't do it at all.


At the end of the day, the challenge for crafters (who take MP orders) is getting rid of the stocks of 99 stuff. With so much of it around, it is incredibly difficult to sell.

So we either do it cheap or no-one buys.


For MP stuff, you can of course charge whatever you want, and people will buy it no matter what.

If you want to increase the prices of 99 stuff, then you need to petition Mythic for a code change.



A clever crafter will make enough profit on the MP items to ensure they still make a profit at the end of the day, once they've sold off the 99% stuff.

 

[garnax]

Urme dont it ever happens to you when you sell does cheap war cleavers you get told you are a ripp off as others sells same thing for 350g...happend to me on just a war cleaver\cleaver yesterday.

wanted a cleaver I sayd 550g I think and he asked me angry as hell how a 1H can cost 2X as mutch as his 2H (war cleaver) costed.

I get this crap more times then I dont, I can stop craft OR try to change it...prefer to try to make a change if it dont work I guess I have to end my weapon store and lend it to does that can afford
giving away items

 

[garnax]

yes we have a overflow of 99% weapons as so many want and can with no money get a MP...

ya gets that way when you charge nothing for MP weapons.

When I get 20 99% after a MP I try to sell em without markup at all, cost+5 rebuilds...then i sell a few. But I still have to many so then I sell a few of em back and save 5 of em.

Or I can save all 20 and sell em for 200g and ruin the market for any other that want to sell em for cost+markup. Problem is not
selling left over 99% for 550g insted of 650g its selling for 250g insted of 650g. 100g is a fair discount i think.

even 500 insted of 650 is okey, you wont get angry ppl on you when you say you charge 650g when someone the knew just got one for 500 or 550g. Not the same when we start to talk 250-300g prices...

 

[Urme the Legend]

Actually never happened me.. some just say that they can't afford it atm and will get back.. but they never do

One time I made a 2h Great Spiked Hammer 99% .. think I charged around 600g for it.. and I did loose on that deal.. think it took over 15 retries or something... but anyway.. I was in hagall and then saw in broad that someone sold great spiked hammers for 320g.. and that pissed me off .. what if my customer would have seen that.. so I went to Aegir to finish the deal

 

[garnax]

Never mind...

Are about 2 kinds of ppl that replyes here

one type understand me and the other type aint crafters

I just want everyones markup to be his own bussnis but i want to try and see if there is a way to make a agreement on lowest price on any item, if you have 1 or 100 to have a minimum so all know in the entire realm this is the minimum price then you can look to find the one online with the best markup for your pocket.

You can reply all you want, i wont post anymore on this thread, just hold until friday and we will see if we can get somewhere.

And if you dont agree with me at all PLZ be at the CG meeting and speak your opinion. No meening with 10 Garnax types saying the same things

 

[Driwen]

but why would the people who are selling 99% weapons do it now for more? They need to get rid off them, so they sell them for little or they dont sell them. The problem is that the 99% market is too crowded.
I hope you pull it off to get fair prices for every weapon, but I highly doubt it. Enough people are making mp's and get lots off 99% and can only get rid off them fast apparentl, if they sell them for little. So you can try to persuade every lgm out there to not sell below cost price (which you most likely will not be able to do), just ignore the whiners or leave the market.

 

[old.anubis]

two guys... how to call em? let say businessmen, some rich people... went to casino and lost quite a lot of money. one was in frustration and always wanted to get his money back. so he is now very sad, drinks a lot and such... the other guy sees it and says: "relax, here people _spend_ money, they _earn_ them in completely different place"

the same applies to crafting. if you want to get profit, buy/farm seals and make hinges. craft is a hobby, like casino, you can make profit, you can loose everything.

 

[old.anubis]

now a little bit of mathematics for garnax

take for example war cleaver

facts:
cost to make 250g 77s 60c
sell back to merchant 186g 62s 40c
retry cost 64g 15s 20c
chance to get 99% = 1/6 (minus chance to get mp, but we will skip that, not actual)
chance to get 100% = 1/50

now, prices based on selfcost (what crafters always tell us ^^)
99%: cost to make + 5 x retry, which gives 571g 53s 60c
100%: cost to make + 49 x retry, which gives 3p 394g 22s 40c

let say crafter has 25 plat, he goes to forge and makes 100 war cleavers
he spends 25p 77g 60s
out of 100 tries he gets 2 masterpieces and 16 x 99%

he sells 82 cleavers with qua 94-48 to merchant at above cost and gets back: 15p 303g 16s 80c

he sells 16 99% cleavers to people based on "cost + 5 x retry" price (note: no markup), and gets: 9p 144g 57s 60c

he sells 2 mp cleavers to people based on "cost + 49 x retry" price (note: no markup), and gets: 6p 788g 44s 80c

summ up all above, crafter sold everything for 31p 236g 19s 20c

PROFIT: 6p 158g 59s 20c
note, there wasnt any markup on any item
you got 61.5g profit from every single item you made by selling them for "selfcost"

that's why actual price on 99% items is lower than your so called "selfcost". because you try to sell the same cleaver twice, once as mp item, the second time as 99% item. basically if you sell all your 99% for 571g each (without profit you say), you will get your mps for free, so ANY price (even 500g) on mp will give you profit.
other way around if you sell mp war cleaver for 3.4p then ANY price above 186.6g on 99% will give you profit ^^
even if you sell it to customer for 250g, you still will get your extra 64g

 

[Oddgeir]

Originally posted by old.anubis
...
other way around if you sell mp war cleaver for 3.4p then ANY price above 186.6g on 99% will give you profit ^^
...

Exactly, Anubis is absolutely correct. I'm a legendary WC just like you Garnax and I honestly don't see the problem. If I'm making
MP orders and get 99's as leftovers I can sell them for anything above what the merchant would pay me (186.6g in the war
cleaver example above) and not make a loss since the rebuilf cost is already covered by the guy who ordered the MP.

Although I'm always charging per recraft when making MP's or 99's not already in stock and most customers accept that.

But let's say someone wants to buy a war cleaver 99% qua from me and I don't have one in stock from a previous MP-order. Then
I would tell him that I had to set the price when I've made the item so I know exactly how many retries it took to make it, on
avarage that should land somewhere in the vincinity of 577g (Material + 5 retries). But why should he take that chance when
some other crafter already have 99's in stock and can sell them for 400g or maybe less? That's insane, why should I make
something for a higher price that someone else has an overflow of? Crafting isn't that much fun. So my advice for that customer
would probably be to go out and check the market for anyone else with the kind of weapon he wants already in stock and with
the ability to sell it cheaper.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by old.anubis
two guys... how to call em? let say businessmen, some rich people... went to casino and lost quite a lot of money. one was in frustration and always wanted to get his money back. so he is now very sad, drinks a lot and such... the other guy sees it and says: "relax, here people _spend_ money, they _earn_ them in completely different place"

the same applies to crafting. if you want to get profit, buy/farm seals and make hinges. craft is a hobby, like casino, you can make profit, you can loose everything.

That is how it is NOW, it's not what it SHOULD be like. Heh, after all we craft the stuff FOR OTHER PEOPLE, we shouldn't pay the price if the random generator fucks up my retries.

And the result of this system is about to show itself, fewer people craft for other people, it will probably end up with everyone being forced to skill up a crafter to make stuff for themselves.

What's cheapest? Get someone who enjoys crafting to make it and not limit it because of cash? Or flesh out the 20plats needed to skill a crafter yourself.

 

[kathal_tdd]

I quit crafting a LONG time ago. I only craft for guild mates and the rest can FO. Why bother. Hmm, lets see. Do I want to waste 5 hours for nothing than vaults filled with 99%. NOOOT.
Make the items degrade MUCH faster and I will consider crafting again.

I /salute you for the try, but I think its a lost cause. GL to all you crafters, you deserver it.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by old.anubis
now a little bit of mathematics for garnax

take for example war cleaver

facts:
cost to make 250g 77s 60c
sell back to merchant 186g 62s 40c
retry cost 64g 15s 20c
chance to get 99% = 1/6 (minus chance to get mp, but we will skip that, not actual)
chance to get 100% = 1/50

now, prices based on selfcost (what crafters always tell us ^^)
99%: cost to make + 5 x retry, which gives 571g 53s 60c
100%: cost to make + 49 x retry, which gives 3p 394g 22s 40c

let say crafter has 25 plat, he goes to forge and makes 100 war cleavers
he spends 25p 77g 60s
out of 100 tries he gets 2 masterpieces and 16 x 99%

he sells 82 cleavers with qua 94-48 to merchant at above cost and gets back: 15p 303g 16s 80c

he sells 16 99% cleavers to people based on "cost + 5 x retry" price (note: no markup), and gets: 9p 144g 57s 60c

he sells 2 mp cleavers to people based on "cost + 49 x retry" price (note: no markup), and gets: 6p 788g 44s 80c

summ up all above, crafter sold everything for 31p 236g 19s 20c

PROFIT: 6p 158g 59s 20c
note, there wasnt any markup on any item
you got 61.5g profit from every single item you made by selling them for "selfcost"

that's why actual price on 99% items is lower than your so called "selfcost". because you try to sell the same cleaver twice, once as mp item, the second time as 99% item. basically if you sell all your 99% for 571g each (without profit you say), you will get your mps for free, so ANY price (even 500g) on mp will give you profit.
other way around if you sell mp war cleaver for 3.4p then ANY price above 186.6g on 99% will give you profit ^^
even if you sell it to customer for 250g, you still will get your extra 64g

thats all assuming he gets 2 MPs and x 99%'s right?


What if he doesn't?

he's just wasted 25p on an order and still no MP.





it's teh random number generator thats fucked, not crafting prices imo

 

[agreiloth]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
thats all assuming he gets 2 MPs and x 99%'s right?


What if he doesn't?

he's just wasted 25p on an order and still no MP.





it's teh random number generator thats fucked, not crafting prices imo

That doesn't really matter, if you sell the 99's you get from crafting a MP for "normal" price, you gonna make hell of a profit.
eventually you will allways get an MP, and you will most likely get some 99's when you try to get an MPs.

So basicly I still think the free market should control this.. to take 500-650g for 99's that you get from crafting a MP.. read anubis's post again and calculate your profit ... Is that a fair price from the customer's point of view ? imho.. no..

 

[old.anubis]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
thats all assuming he gets 2 MPs and x 99%'s right?


What if he doesn't?

he's just wasted 25p on an order and still no MP.





it's teh random number generator thats fucked, not crafting prices imo

nah, mythic's random generator is teh cool ^^

(c) qteeth

 

[parzi]

Originally posted by Urme the Legend
Actually never happened me.. some just say that they can't afford it atm and will get back.. but they never do

One time I made a 2h Great Spiked Hammer 99% .. think I charged around 600g for it.. and I did loose on that deal.. think it took over 15 retries or something... but anyway.. I was in hagall and then saw in broad that someone sold great spiked hammers for 320g.. and that pissed me off .. what if my customer would have seen that.. so I went to Aegir to finish the deal

just buy that weap for 320 in fara ride to aegir and sell it for 600 ;P

 

[garnax]

How many hammer users buy a war cleaver it its cheap...0 i hope.

Jow many hammer users buy a great spiked hammer for an example...every hammer user in game sooner or later. (most likely)

IF you get alot of leftovers and sell em for say 500g insted of 650-700g would this amount of hammer user stop getting the crafted hammer thay need?

Most likely no, same amount of hammers will be needed.

I save my 99% after a MP order...try to sell em a bit cheaper then normal, not for an insane low price as i dont want to ruin the rest of the market. I Get a few sold for that price, then I sell back to merchant and rise the price back up to normal.

Here is a exapmle: (I wont get the numbers correct as in the very well written post above)

I crafter has xx P he is out of war cleavers in stock and will make
100 of em to get a good suple of 99% and hopfully make a few MP.

Done! No he have been there for 4 hours making this he made
no MP and only 13 99%. He has to sell the rest back and gets X p back then he sells the 99% for 350g as thats the standard price and lose X p and he dont made any MP and "lost" the Xp he would normaly made here.

In the short this person lost aprox 7p.

Have happend to me exept I took that job on a order and the orderer had to pay and the MP got there on the 104th try.

**********************************
**********************************

Now lets just be funny, you have 8 99% cleavers in vault.
after a MP orders (avarge on a 50 build MP)

material cost is lets say 250g as I dont want to check now.
you sell em for 300g just to make the profit of 50g and the rebuild loss as this is payed buy the MP.

what if you sell 4 of em back to merchant and sell the other 4 at 600g wich would be a normal price...then would you spoil the rest of the market that dont do MP orders in every type?

that cant be so hard, and if EVERYONE sold cleaver for 600g eatch, you would sell em easy as all know thay wont find sutch a great weapon for a lesser price.

 

[cadiva]

Or alternatively you can do what I do and not take MP/99% orders and then you just charge the cost of making it plus a small markup for each item.

I make armour for whoever asks for it, but they're always told from the start they get what it comes out at (unless I'm making stuff for under lvl 30 say when I can afford to chuck out a couple of 94% pieces and try get better).

Those people wanting the MP and 99% pieces for the (in my view) stupidly over powerful spellcrafting, can pretty much choose where and when they shop because they have the best hand, they can just pick and choose from their crafters til they find a price they like.

If you take MP and 99% orders then you should expect to get screwed over on the 99% pieces you make on the way to an MP cos not everyone wants/needs the highest quality for spellcrafting and not every crafter actually takes the MP/99% orders.

Just another viewpoint thrown into the melting pot, take it or leave it.

PS: I don't mean those of you taking MP/99% orders are rip off merchants obviously, but that you can surely make enough on an MP order to cover the cost of selling the 99% pieces you have left over a bit cheaper

 

[piggeman]

Couldn't agree too you more, Garnax .. I'll be there!

 

[ormagaa]

I dont think these things will happen though.
Its good thoughts etc.

But this is just plain marketeconomy.
For those that have studied it, you know its true and
is never going to change, particulary on a gameserver like this.

There will ALWAYS be crafters who want to go their own way, as people have written above, and sell for just the price they want.

 

[old.Varg]

What if Mythic allowed 10 99 qua crafted goods of the same typ to be combined into one MP?

food for thought ;>

 

[Esoteric]

Fellas and Gals its simple

If the person doesn't like the prices tell them to order from the person who has the prices they are quoting. 9 times out of ten they might be bullshitting or quoting a price there mates paid which isn't true in the first place.

Items that have been in stock have been cheaper in general but I have also bought item+retry for 99%. Though I have checked with most lgm crafters before to see if they have items in stock first, simply due to most being busy with mp or other orders. I found a lovely crafter (Stomp) who made my two claws on the spot for item + retries I even tipped the guy think cost was 760 I paid 800 why did I tip him a little extra? cause Im ruddy grateful I don't have to rely on drops and have the option due to hard work to have some weapons really worth there salt.

The general population needs to realise the cost of getting to lgm then they won't moan so much about the prices esp for a level 50 who can spend a little while farming cash and make a decent amount.

 

[garnax]

Crafters should help...not try to ruin eacthother.

said it once....


if you want to help the others that cant sell there 99% stock for alot less then cost sell 50% of your 99% if you have so many to merchant then rise the price 100% on the rest, you make same money and the market for others gets better.

If I need a new weapon i pay what it cost...300g or 1p dont matter if I need it I pay it.

Would you stop drinking water if the price on it was 2x more?
Would you stop eating food if the price on it was 2x more?

No, if you need you pay. And then it wont hurt anyone, just help some if we all could agree on a minimum price on items.
Then we can all get the items sold with low markups but that you CAN do as all bussnis RL does, just hurt the market when prices gets to low. I do see you make a profit anyway if it is leftovers but see past yourself, some maybe make 12 items gets 2 99% and put em in stock...that can be sold for 250g eatch imposible.

I take all arcanium MP orders ppl want...and I dont sell for so low price as I know it spoils for others.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by garnax

Would you stop drinking water if the price on it was 2x more?
Would you stop eating food if the price on it was 2x more?

no but I would eat cheaper stuff and instead off soda only water (assuming every sort of drink has gone up in price ). If 99% or mp get to expensive people will except 98%, it just depends on how much do you need 99% or mp. But your idea is correct, people will buy 99% if its at 4* price off making 1 item. But people will buy it slower as they need time to think as its a larger investment, so if it goes wrong more money (and by that time) has been wasted.

 

[Gorb]

Originally posted by garnax
Will make it simple then you can agree or not.

We here have a LGM he spended 4 months and aprox 50p to get the skill he has.

Now he makes a small stock and builds 2 99% of the big sellers.

he sets his price with the merchants in the game and takes a 50% markup for his 99% items. On for an example a cleaver his price is 577g

No a orderer wants a cleaver and he has one so he says I have a few in stock, the buyer ask for price and he answers 577g plz.
Now that gets a follow up buy 5 min yelling telling you are a rip-off. And says normal price is 300g. The crafters knows he will lose money on that deal and says no.

This is a normal crafters with a low markup if you see to the quality you get.

What has this crafter done wrong...

IF the buyer would have sayd: Hmm, 577g nha I cant afford that I will try to find one that sells left overs from MP order for 500g insted wouldent that be more normal, crafters try to grab costomuers by diffrent markups not with hwo can sell most under cost...

People who complaing about crafters prices can crawl back to the caves they came from. Of course haggling is good, anyway who wants to pay more than they can afford? But the yelling part is quite rude since it takes a lot of time to be LGM (I am an Master armorer so I have a slight image what it is like) Imo it's the crafters privilage to ask as much money as he/she wants. On the other hand they can sell for cheap if they want to.

Today I bought archanium great spiked hammer for 500g (later I saw someone selling these weapons for 350g) and archanium spiked hammer for 300g (from the cheaper guy). Both weapons were 99%. I think it is great that some crafters want to sell their leftover stocks for cheaper prices. It is for the good of the realm that people defending the realm have better weapons/armors. And personally I think that finding a cheap crafter can be fun in itself. It would be boring if all the crafters would have the same prices. I get a small satisfaction everytime I find something valuable with a cheap price. It's what makes trading so fun for me.

You say that you have put 50plat on your crafting. I think that either you have had seriously bad luck, or you are exaggerating. Crafters can make really good money by salvaging/trinketing, and I know you must have made your share of the money. So that should be counted in when you count the money spend on crafting. I think the total will be much much lower the 50p.

Complaining that other crafters drive you out of business and that everyone should raise their prices is just pure greed. I know that you too make MPs and they can be sold for a really nice price so you can't possibly say that you can't manage with the current prices, some other crafters sell items for cheaper then you do and they do just fine. If you can't stand the competition of free market you should stop crafting for orders.

 

[Randalff]

lot of the new alchemists kill the market with horrible "opening" prices... because there just able to make em or skilling on em they sell, for example, ablative procs for 300g. that's not even 50g profit :/ if ppl stopped doing that it would be a lot better. the alchemist market is a bit over crowded it's camped

 

[Vell]

Originally posted by Randalff
because there just able to make em or skilling on em they sell, for example, ablative procs for 300g. that's not even 50g profit :/ if ppl stopped doing that it would be a lot better.

People who are skilling up can either sell back to the merchant for 100g, or sell onto a person for 300g. Which would you choose?

And selling for 300g gives a 20% profit margin, which isn't too shabby at all. Especially considering you don't have to sit there for hours throwing away the low quality ones.

 

[svartmetall]

OK, as a non-crafter I think a LOT of the problem here is that non-crafters just don't know, most of the time, what's involved in crafting stuff (both in money and time spent in-game).
I've bought 99% cleavers for 200G and been well happy, because that was a lot less than I'd expected to pay. But then if you hear someone asking 1.5P+ for a MP weapon, you start to think "OK, I could spend hours and hours just farming - i.e. yawn - or have some fun on a quest and get an equivalent weapon anyway."
It's a balancing act, and not an easy one; most crafters have to spend a hell of a lot of time and money to get to LGM, and many players don't want to just farm for hours to afford what they see as too-high prices.
I know I've been put right off getting MP AF102 chain for my Warrior because of the massive amounts of cash it would take...I've been quoted some insanely high amounts, that would involve me spending easily two weeks' playing time doing NOTHING other than farming cash in DF (assuming I could just farm, and avoid the usual being-killed-by-enemy-zerg-and-not-farming that it would normally involve). So for now I'm just wearing my Epic and not stressing about what'll happen when it starts to wear out.
So; constructive suggestions as to how to solve what you crafters obviously feel is a big problem?

 

[svartmetall]

Originally posted by garnax

Would you stop drinking water if the price on it was 2x more?
Would you stop eating food if the price on it was 2x more?

No, I'd be watching the riots in the streets that would bring down the government that fixed the prices for basic necessities so high.

Just an observation.

 

[raithian]

prime example for how crafter lose money

i certane sb in mid asked every tailer if thay craft him mp leather all refused then he asked me
he offered 8p for me to try no more no less i reluctantly agreed and started the order
but he was informed it take some time as i was doing a hell of alot of scing as well and that to me was more important

when i compleated the armour i was down by 8.3p when i called the sb he had swoped cxhars 9 days before and forgot to cancil the order i belive he should pay as he ordered it but he has refused thats an 8p lose for me( not much for some).
and ppl wounder why crafter will not craft mp armour for ppl when things like this happen.
so i agree crafters need to act or there wont be any crafting in mid at all

 

[kathal_tdd]

The thing is that we( the crafters) spend more time on the items than ppl spend on farmíng gold for their items. Thats gotta be wrong.

1 hour of crafting = 500G (on a VERY good day for me(In the old days))
1 hour of Gold farming = 800+G if you are at the right places

Retired crafter over and ZZZZzzzzz......