Aligro- Victim of Hacke

[sibanac]

Getting hacked is something entirely different.

but getting hacked becuase you left your password on your pc/ n an email account is like parking your car in a gheto with the doors unlocked, leaving your wallet and mobile on the dashboard.

I mean right people shouldnt steal, but they do. No need to go making it easy for them.

 

[Bullitt]

GOA have pretty much secured themselves against the endless whinges coming from those hacked because they leave details in an e-mail account. When you first subscribe they send you the details with a golden piece of advise scrawled right across the top:

Note down carefully the following logins and passwords (we advise you to print this page.)

Do this then delete the e-mail and never share it and you can pretty much gaurantee 99.999999999% you'll never lose items or hacked or whatever.

 

[Dicer]

It ain't that hard

I worked on an ISP and I know how many people have their computer and ISP accounts hacked.I have no doubt that players are mostly to blame at compromising their computers or passwords, even if it's true at 99% of the times they should be at least partially compensated for their loss and we also have to think of the 1% who suffered for no fault of their own.

Also searching in logs and restoring a char shouldnt take more than 5 mins of log reviewing , and viewing last char trades and running a prog to restore char from archive .
you dont even need a dedicated person for that unless there are more than 30 hacking reports per day.

Even if aligro is to blame he should get partial refund of cash and items, and they should find out what char got his stuff and give aligro the player's details so he can sue if he wishes to.
Only this measures will make account hacking non profitable and will reduce the phenomenon.



If GOA can't take these minimal steps than it's time to pack and move to another game or the US or Australian DAOC servers.


Dicer

 

[Konah]

well even if u share your pass with some1 u known for years or irl and trust them 101% it doesn't mean thier pc is secure.

u don't want hacked don't share your pass, fullstop.

irc is a playground for hackers too, nice long list of ip's for them to have a go at, get a bouncer, use mode -x and dont stay in irc while your offline/asleep. setting your nick to something like 'n00b|Zzzz' is like waving a neon 'Hack me now!' sign.

 

[Asha]

Even if aligro is to blame he should get partial refund of cash and items, and they should find out what char got his stuff and give aligro the player's details so he can sue if he wishes to.

How can you sue for something that you don't own? You would get thrown out of any court if you even tried it. Maybe you could try to sue Mythic/GOA but I doubt that.

 

[Tualatin]

hacked accounts suck

btw, on IRC, hacking a PC can be a bi-tch tho.. and to make their 'job' harder, (on q-net) do //mode $me +x (or just /mode +x), do it before you join any channel tho. Or get any other mask hiding host.

 

[rayzor]

aligro.

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

giving a "friend" your pass and then having said "friend" rip you off is _NOT_ being hacked. it's being stupid, and it's your responsibility to avoid that, not GOAs who actually say you aren't allowed to share accounts.
your analogy is wrong because it's not cause and effect. It's more like you ran a red light, taking a chance and got smacked into by another car. Yes, it's your fault you got hit by the car because you did not follow the law put there for your own benefit. I choose to give my account details to some people, I wouldn't whine if I got ripped off because I have taken that chance. Getting hacked is something entirely different.

Dont you get it, the fact that you (and goa) think like this, generates a HUGE opening for hackers to justify what they did, all they have to say is : he gave me the password, I've known him for ages... Or 'he sold me his account'...

I know its hard to understand the concept of one wrong doesnt justify another, I'm sure you can tell the police why you sold your friends car when he loaned you the keys... I doubt the police will say : but he gave away his keys... Your comparison doesnt work, because the person that hit you while you ran through a red light, didnt do anything wrong, however the person that stole the items from an account did... No matter how he got access...

Here's another for ya, you shared your account with a friend, but... You got hacked... How are you gonna prove that? Your friend actually didnt rip you off, you really got hacked...

The problem that it currently looks like is that GOA seem to always say : its your responsibility...

Anyways, I didnt whine on BW/FH, I did ask GOA to look into it because I do think the person that stole my items should be punished, I never asked for my items back... I did share my experience in this thread though and my disrespect to the way GOA handles it all... And I do think its wrong the way it gets handled... Because in the end, I have no concrete proof that it was a friend, or perhaps my account really did get hacked... Because GOA didnt even want to look into it at first...

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

Also its fair that GOA only restores chars? A friend of mine (guildie) got his chars deleted twice, I can pretty much guarantee that he didnt share his account the 2nd time (after his sub + game pw got changed), yet the 2nd time again only his chars got restored... Not all the cash + items we gave in the meantime...

Well, apparently the first time the person that did it didnt get punished enough, or he wouldnt have done it a 2nd time...

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

If you havent already, give Rightnow ALL the information you have. Times, dates, item names, char names etc. They should be able to track everything with enough variables to filter on, and you should DEMAND that they restore your stuff.

yes u can DEMAND that , but it's up to them in the end.
best to try and stay calm ( i know it hard) and explaine to them that u need the itamz back as it's everything u own in game.


imo a man/woman hunt should go on for the person who did this.

I really don't know why peeps do it

 

[Delania]

I know its hard to understand the concept of one wrong doesnt justify another, I'm sure you can tell the police why you sold your friends car when he loaned you the keys... I doubt the police will say : but he gave away his keys...

The police do. When my mum was having loads of cancer treatment and nurse she worked with split up with her boyfriend and threw her out of the house. My mother offered her a room in her house because she need help day and night, so between my mums friend and my 2 sisters and I we sorted to her needs. Eventually it was close to my mum dying and she was taking into a private specalist hospital to make her last days as comfortable as possbile, as we was no longer able to do that for her. Her so called friend and collegue took a good deal of money from the house and some items. The polices answer was... she had keys and your mother let her have them nothing we can do. My mum gave her right to anything in the house when she gave her the keys.

 

[Asha]

Dont you get it, the fact that you (and goa) think like this, generates a HUGE opening for hackers to justify what they did, all they have to say is : he gave me the password, I've known him for ages... Or 'he sold me his account'...

Since when did GOA start talking to "hackers" ? I bet they don't even attempt it. It's irrelivant what the "hackers" say.

I know its hard to understand the concept of one wrong doesnt justify another

I do understand that concept. I am talking about the concept of risk. The more you lend out your account, the higher risk you're opening yourself up to as far as damage to your account being done. That is my only point. If you lend out your account and the person you lend it to screws you or lends your account to someone else who screws you, then it's your fault.

I'm sure you can tell the police why you sold your friends car when he loaned you the keys... I doubt the police will say : but he gave away his keys... Your comparison doesnt work, because the person that hit you while you ran through a red light, didnt do anything wrong, however the person that stole the items from an account did... No matter how he got access...

Well I wasn't really talking about the person in the other car as the "hacker" but as just an example of taking a chace that opens you up for risks - ie running a red light.

Here's another for ya, you shared your account with a friend, but... You got hacked... How are you gonna prove that? Your friend actually didnt rip you off, you really got hacked...

Here's a nasty one for you How do you know your "friend" didnt' rip you off? If you could see a log of your account, how would you know that the person who initially got your items was the owner? Maybe they put the items into a vault open to several accounts. The account that removes the items could just say: it was in the guild vault, I didn't know it was not ok.

Can you see how GOA would have real problems to police this? It would take a lot of time and energy and man power to police all the complaints they get and there is no way to validate anyone's accounts of what was going on, who had rights to what, who has bought what accounts...etc etc etc

If you don't want these troubles, then don't lend out your account. Don't store your pass on your computer, hotmail, etc. Follow the advice about IRC and using Net Cafes. Your risk of having it happen will drop by huge amounts. In the end, you don't own your account, and you agree to that fact every time you log in. It is after all, only a game.

Delania that is horrible Sorry your mother and family had to suffer that on top of all else.

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

Since when did GOA start talking to "hackers" ? I bet they don't even attempt it. It's irrelivant what the "hackers" say.

Its not irrelivant what hackers say, because I doubt GOA would ban someone from their servers just on your word... GOA will definitly talk to the person that recieved items from your character...

Can you see how GOA would have real problems to police this? It would take a lot of time and energy and man power to police all the complaints they get and there is no way to validate anyone's accounts of what was going on, who had rights to what, who has bought what accounts...etc etc etc

Bought of the account? Selling accounts is illegal, according to goa, so is lending out your account... So, in a perfect world, its not possible that another person logs in your account to 'take items that are his'...

I'm not saying its easy, but its why we have customer support, if customer support was only to say 'this isnt possible' or 'its your own fault' or 'We will send this to Mythic' then their not really helping, are they?

Either GOA gives you the ability to look into your own transactions, or they do it for you...

If you don't want these troubles, then don't lend out your account. Don't store your pass on your computer, hotmail, etc. Follow the advice about IRC and using Net Cafes. Your risk of having it happen will drop by huge amounts. In the end, you don't own your account, and you agree to that fact every time you log in. It is after all, only a game.

You do know that nothing is 100% safe right? You do know that for example, your password is send unencrypted to the GOA servers when you login right? If your at a Net Cafe's, if that cafe has a hub instead of a switch, that every computer on that network could see your PW with the right tools... You could have someone that installed an email forwarder, so your new requested password gets forwarded to him...

If a person gets access to your computer (via any way possible), then your account is no longer safe... It doesnt matter at all if you have your passwords stored on your computer or not... It doesnt matter if you delete it from your hotmail account or not...

The fact is, from what I keep hearing on FH, GOA doesnt look into any 'hacked accounts' other then restoring characters without items... It doesnt matter if you got hacked, or gave your account away or shared it with 1000 friends... Traders are 'final', so GOA says...

And the result is, you never know if your account is safe again, unless your sure how the items got removed from your character...

 

[sibanac]

You do know that nothing is 100% safe right? You do know that for example, your password is send unencrypted to the GOA servers when you login right? If your at a Net Cafe's, if that cafe has a hub instead of a switch, that every computer on that network could see your PW with the right tools... You could have someone that installed an email forwarder, so your new requested password gets forwarded to him...

If a person gets access to your computer (via any way possible), then your account is no longer safe... It doesnt matter at all if you have your passwords stored on your computer or not... It doesnt matter if you delete it from your hotmail account or not...

The fact is, from what I keep hearing on FH, GOA doesnt look into any 'hacked accounts' other then restoring characters without items... It doesnt matter if you got hacked, or gave your account away or shared it with 1000 friends... Traders are 'final', so GOA says...

And the result is, you never know if your account is safe again, unless your sure how the items got removed from your character...

If your account gets stolen then you should know your computer has been compromised and you should imediatly reinstall the whole machine. That way your password is safe again.

GOA does look into stolen accounts, I know several people who had their acount stolen, GOA locked their acount as soon as they reported it, then reopened when they where sure the right person had the account.
They resotre chars but not items.

as for tracking down anybody on an IP, it isnt as easy as you think
proxy's can be used, netcafe's.
Even if you had the right ip you would still need a court order before most isp's would even tell you who had that ip at a specific time.

 

[Bracken]

Regardless of how unwise or even reckless a victim has been, to start blaming them when they have their account either "hacked" or just fleeced is a dangerous path to go down, not to mention just stupid. It puts self-justification in the mind of the thief and gives the message that it's ok to rip someone off if the victim has made the slightest error of judgement or has been less than perfect in maintaining their security. If someone gives out their password to many people, or does not keep their pc secure then they may well lose some right to compensation / having items restored. That does not mean that they are to blame. I work with offenders and I hear the justification time and time again that it was the victims "fault" for leaving themselves at risk. It's important that we as a community don't enhance that mentality.

 

[Downanael]

neverthless the "how" account hacking is always sad thing to do. Goodluck with GOA

 

[Asha]

Blaming? If they gave the pass to someone else, they opened themself up for problems. It's a choice you make when you give out your pass which is against user agreement.

It does not justify it anything to say that if you break the rule GOA put in place, it's your problem. It's common sense. To blame is a funny phrase to use in this case. I feel bad for anyone who that happens to, but I don't think GOA should employ people just to look into these cases as it would be hopeless with all the account selling, borrowing, trading going on. There is a difference between blaming someone and saying: you don't deserve any compensation because you opened yourself up for that risk. No insurance company covers a risk that you open yourself up for like that. If you leave your car running and unlocked, do you think you get compensated?

Dunno how they could weed the legitmate cases of hacking out, it looks impossible to me. And like someone said, if I hadn't shared my account or kept my password anywhere silly, then I would be much more worried about other things that had been gotten to other than my daoc account...

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

Regardless of how unwise or even reckless a victim has been, to start blaming them when they have their account either "hacked" or just fleeced is a dangerous path to go down, not to mention just stupid. It puts self-justification in the mind of the thief and gives the message that it's ok to rip someone off if the victim has made the slightest error of judgement or has been less than perfect in maintaining their security. If someone gives out their password to many people, or does not keep their pc secure then they may well lose some right to compensation / having items restored. That does not mean that they are to blame. I work with offenders and I hear the justification time and time again that it was the victims "fault" for leaving themselves at risk. It's important that we as a community don't enhance that mentality.

Amen...

Stuff got stolen, no matter how the thief got access, he's still wrong by doing it... Saying its the fault of the victim is wrong... Letting the thief run free is like saying "thank you for stealing his stuff, I'm sure he learned from it"........

Any and all cases of theft / hacking should be investigated... The thief, if he can be identified, should be punished... If it was a case of true 'hacking', items should be returned...

As for :

I feel bad for anyone who that happens to, but I don't think GOA should employ people just to look into these cases as it would be hopeless with all the account selling, borrowing, trading going on.

How do you prove to GOA that you didnt share / sold / borrowed the account? Problem is you cant, you cant prove you never shared your account... So good luck trying to get GOA to investigate the claim of theft / hacking with their attitude...

And not investigating any of these claims gives hackers free get away and actually promote's hacking... I mean as long as you leave the chars, your out of the clear...

 

[sibanac]

tbh if your computer gets hacked, its not goa's problem, its yours.
You want samething done about it ? call the police.

 

[Bracken]

There is a difference between blaming someone and saying: you don't deserve any compensation because you opened yourself up for that risk. No insurance company covers a risk that you open yourself up for like that. If you leave your car running and unlocked, do you think you get compensated?

Absolutely right. Like I said, if you put yourself at risk then you pretty much lose your right to compensation - by how much depends on how reckless you are with your own security. But it has been said that it's the victim's own fault (hence blaming them) because they put themselves at risk. It isn't - the action is entirely down to the person who commits the offense...it is entirely their "fault". Although that's obvious, it's easily lost when we start examining the victim's actions - and I just think as a community we need to guard against falling into that trap.

As for what GOA should do...well I'm pretty dense when it comes to the technical side so have no idea how easy or hard it is to track/prove what's gone on. But I do feel they should do whatever they REASONABLY can to establish the truth of a situation and take action where necessary. It's the fear of being caught that is the biggest deterrant to people doing this - if GOA do nothing when they are in a position to do something (and like I say I don't know whether they are) then they are turning a blind eye to the problem.

 

[Fellbeast]

Amen...

And not investigating any of these claims gives hackers free get away and actually promote's hacking... I mean as long as you leave the chars, your out of the clear...

And how would they be able to recognise legitimate cases from ones where the hacking was the user's fault?
And even then, have you any idea how much that would cost?

 

[Asha]

well, I don't see how goa can do anything at all without having huge problems

you give someone your pass
they log in and transfer 50p to their own account
you complain to GOA and say you don't know who did it
they check the logs, and find out who the money went to
they contact that person and he says you said he could

or he moves only 5p
they contact that person and he says you lent him him the account to farm cash and he was just moving it

or they contact him and he says you gave him the account

or they contact him and he says he was finishing an old deal from months ago/another server/irc

or they contact him and he says he paid you cash irl for the money

really, it isn't possible to police
it's not a case of blame, it's just common sense. who should they believe? you broke the user agreement by giving your account pass out, they should believe you? Should they just delete the money/items from the server totally since you both broke the user agreement? If you both play from the same net cafe, they can't even tell who is on the char.

you could just deny that and say he hacked your account, I guess... but then there would be cases where people really did lend an account to farm, or sold it or etc etc and are just screwing the person they sold to. This actually happens often with sold accounts.

I guess my point is that you're responsible for the security of your account. The hack won't be coming from GOA's side or we would have seen massive problems. Almost all the "hacks" I have heard about have come from 5 things: net cafes, sharing accounts, irc, hotmail fiascos, and buying/selling accounts. GOA cannot police these matters realistically.

 

[Trubble]

you could just deny that and say he hacked your account, I guess... but then there would be cases where people really did lend an account to farm, or sold it or etc etc and are just screwing the person they sold to. This actually happens often with sold accounts.

Why do you want to protect people who recieves access to another account? They are as much breaking the rules as the guy lending out access to his account. My advice to you is dont buy or lend other peoples account, cause if you do, you are at your own risc of getting blamed of hacking! (see your argumentation works just as well the other way around).

A practical solution is just so easy, that its beyond belief its not implemented: If 2 accounts are logged in from same IP number when a huge transfer was done between two accounts, then its obvious that a "theft" has occured if the looser reports in a problem. Solution is reverse the trade and ban the thief. If it was only a small transfer, and the loosing account is known to log in from multiple sites, well... not enough reason to suspect a theft.

I dont see any innocents getting hurt with this. All you will be able to fish up is some remote theoretical example...

 

[[NO]Magmatic]

Why would I ever let someone else transfer all my cash + several items to another account? Why would I let someone else do a trade concerning that amount?

Basicly, you'd never do that, and chances are probably 75% that when that does happen, its because they are ripping you off... And also, you cant use the 'he gave me the details' as defense, because even if he did, the person that logged in knew it wasnt allowed and thus was also acting against CoC...

Problem is you cant prove that you didnt share your details, and thus either GOA investigates all of the theft incidents, or they investigate none...

GOA says that they do not allow hacking / etc in their CoC, so they have to enforce that hacking / theft / etc does not occure, so they are obligated to investigate these incidents... How else are they going to enforce their own CoC ?

So perhaps GOA should try to stop account sharing by handing out several days ban if it happens... And ban all sold / traded accounts... But fact is, thats as hard to police as these theft incidents...

Imho, if it costs GOA / Mythic to much to investigate these incidents, then they should prevent them from happening...

They obviously cant seem to stop account trading / selling and even sharing, so they should implement a trade / selling system, and perhaps different 'user levels' so account sharing is safe too... Stuff like not allowing to trade / sell / destroy items / characters / etc with certain PW's could come in mind...

It would solve most of these problems, and chances are huge that if an account does get hacked, its actually a real hacker at work with these safeguards in hand...

But this 'half enforcing the CoC' is not working...

 

[sibanac]

They do investigate, and take actions to secure the account.

Getting your password stolen is like getting your carkeys stolen.
If you go to your dealer for new locks on the car do you expect them to try and find the thief aswell ?

Goa gives you new locks, if you want the thief cauth thats your responsibility.

 

[Glottis]

GoA should get their finger out of their ass and actually work for the cash they get each month from subscriptions. 30.000 subscribers in Europe...
It also makes good business sense, as somebody who is been ripped, there is a good chance they just quite the game in disgust. So do a little investigation, compare IP adresses, to what account the transfers took place, etc, and GoA can make another 120 (or 240 euro if also a bb) from the user...
It might cost them 20 euro's to figure all out, but it is the same select group of ***** being all elite and using worms, etc to get info.
Mind you, there are plenty of tools those scriptkiddies can use which won't be detected by most virus scanners or firewalls. So security does matter, but it cannot be full proof. GoA should investigate the rip offs.
Regards, Glottis

 

[Bracken]

They do investigate, and take actions to secure the account.

Getting your password stolen is like getting your carkeys stolen.
If you go to your dealer for new locks on the car do you expect them to try and find the thief aswell ?

Goa gives you new locks, if you want the thief cauth thats your responsibility.

Irrelevant example - your car dealer doesnt run the environment in which you drive your car, whereas GOA do in the sense that they run the "environment" in which we play this game. This is not to say that GOA have a legal responsibility to find the thief - they don't. Nor does someone who has put themselves at risk have any real claim for compensation. It's more about the fact that because GOA operate the environment in which we play this game, when someone is doing things that are causing distress to other people then IF they are able to catch that person and to stop them doing it in future then they should. A better example would be that we are all "living" on a private estate. We pay GOA to maintain the private estate environment and run the communal security here (think of it as maintaining the gates to the estate and running CCTV perhaps). We have a responsibility to keep our own individual houses secure. But if GOA are able via their "CCTV" to see someone who is breaking into another person's house then they should use that information to expel that person from the estate. If they ARE able to "see" someone thieving from others then they have a moral duty to act. Though like I said in an earlier post I personally have no clue how easy or difficult it is for them to do this. And yes of course we all have personal as well as communal responsibilities - both to keep ourselves secure and to not tolerate thieves.

 

[Asha]

Irrelevant example - your car dealer doesnt run the environment in which you drive your car, whereas GOA do in the sense that they run the "environment" in which we play this game.

yes, GOA run the internet

 

[Aussie]

apparently cyclodia got all their items restored by goa after they said they had been hacked, so i dont see whay you shouldnt be able to.

lol @ you believing that. they didn't even do it for alpha when he got 'stripped' and he was r10 or 11 when it happened .

 

[Aussie]

Aligro- Victim of Hacke

amazing you're surprised about this. several times people used your old BW account to post stuff with it on old BW. (because you forgot to log out in that InetCafe) it was just a matter of time before they had your daoc acc too.