News Abu Qatada wins appeal against deportation

Embattle

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If we're in the habit of deporting people who "aren't nice" then I wish we would punt my neighbour somewhere offshore. But we're not. If we've got evidence that he's a terrorist we should try him in court, or leave him alone...
You seem to of activated your splitting hairs and do-gooder mode :), which is mainly why I did a short reply originally and should of probably left it at that. I should also point out I was being rather generous when I said he wasn't particularly nice, I'm in two minds abouting sending him to Jordan but neither do I think he should be hiding here either.

Freedom of speech hasn't really ever existed, there are always limits.

The reaction of some people increasingly favouring capital punishment has come about due to the perception of a failing justice system when it comes to punishment, it happens when you allow a gap to form and force more people to jump to either extreme. Personally I'm not a fan of the DP, the idea of a 0% reoffend rate is nice but it also has a 0% error correction once it is carried out.
 

Gwadien

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Scouse you should honestly have anti capitalist protests you clearly have loads of hate in you its a bit wasted just preaching on a forum. No sarcasm etc im being serious - go practice what you preach :)
 

Scouse

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and yes by all means, go kill the head of the federal reserve, and replace them with.. whom ?
Duh! The reason to do that would be systemic change. So there wouldn't be a federal reserve...

you clearly have loads of hate in you
Quite the opposite Gwadien. I'm full of love. :)


No, Wij :eek:
 

Gwadien

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I've seen maybe one person on these forums offering a statement that they do just that, ironically it's Scouse(when we were discussing charity etc).
Well if he does good on him if youve got an opinion which is backed with proof and support then fo sure you should do something about it atleast try to.
 

throdgrain

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Oh by the way, this thread is "why we want out", ok? ;) (Scouse style stupid wink!)
 

soze

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Ah ok, thanks for clearing that. Yeah, he's yours then and if you don't have proof, let the man go.

Unless there's some clause to deny iven asylum after X happens.

People have said worse things then that in this forum, but then again i don't differentiate between "kill all jews" and "kill all chavs", people are people and all that.
The bad thing in this case is the ECoHR have told us we are not allowed to deport him so even if he breaks the rules we appear to be shit out of luck and stuck with him.

The only lesson that can be learnt is is be careful who we let in.
 

Wij

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I'm sure there's plenty to try him for in England. Or we could agree with Jordan that he will only be released to them if they promise not to use torture-obtained evidence in his trial.

No biggie.

(I know what your 'no's mean Scouse)
 

soze

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I'm sure there's plenty to try him for in England. Or we could agree with Jordan that he will only be released to them if they promise not to use torture-obtained evidence in his trial.
I think our courts had a similar agreement so agreed extradition, but the ECoHR felt the risk was too great they would break their word so blocked it.
 

Wij

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I thought the ECoHR had agreed the principle, but not the details.
 

mr.Blacky

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And we know, because science has proven, that evidence gained through torture is unreliable.
Really? since when are scientist doing tests to see if torture is reliable, oh those naughty people :p
Morally wrong, making the person who does is wrong in the head and making the society that uses it feel immoral? hell yes! proven by science no.
 

Uncle Sick

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Hommm....have to think about that for a while.

On one hand; yes, abolishing torture saves a lot of innocent folk(and protects rights of lesser "bad" people).
On the other; not using every mean possible to keep people safe from bombings etc is not optimal.

Could argue that torture is fine, if done in reasonable amount(to avoid forced confessions) and if done only with enough proof.

Though that can be controlled as much as a diplomatically immuned peadophile in disneyworld.
So what now? Torture is good? Is it bad? Just a little bit is ok if it's for a good cause and can be controlled by the proper authorities who won't abuse the privilege?
Make a stand, will you? Otherwise it's just another +1 post count.
 

Job

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Outside of his calls to arm and religous lunacy, which he simply uses to drum up support amongst the clueless, I don't think he's that bad, many of his speeches are based in an uncomfortable truth, if he dropped the terrorism links he could be quite a force in intelligent debate.
Which is actually the path for a lot of political heroes.
 

old.Tohtori

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So what now? Torture is good? Is it bad? Just a little bit is ok if it's for a good cause and can be controlled by the proper authorities who won't abuse the privilege?
Make a stand, will you? Otherwise it's just another +1 post count.
I don't think black&white like you.

Make a stand? On a forum? I think i'll save my "stand making" to something actually important.
 

Scouse

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Outside of his calls to arm and religous lunacy, which he simply uses to drum up support amongst the clueless, I don't think he's that bad, many of his speeches are based in an uncomfortable truth, if he dropped the terrorism links he could be quite a force in intelligent debate.
Which is actually the path for a lot of political heroes.
First sensibly interesting thing you've said in a while Job. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter etc. etc. I'm willing to entertain the idea.

Not having listened to his speeches I'm interested to know what "uncomfortable truth(s)" he espouses. You got breakdowns/transcripts or can you elaborate?
 

Hawkwind

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The only sad thing about this case is that we will have to release him, house him, provide benefits for the rest of his natural life and pay him compensation, probably millions.

Personally I agree that you should not send a person back to their country if they are under the threat of death where evidence is sketchy or received via torture. However, I think we should be able to expel people who preach hatred, example Abu Hamza. Ridiculous that the British tax payer is paying for his family to live in a 700k 5 bedroom house in London. Stick em in a 3 bedroom flat somewhere much cheaper. Why do we have to house them in the most expensive city in the UK.
/rant off
 

Scouse

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Agree about the expense - but that's our fault, not theirs.

As for preaching "hate". I've no problem with that. I've only got a problem with people who act upon it.
 

BloodOmen

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Abu Qatada: haha, british scum you are muderous wretch infidels!
British Gov: right deport the cunt to jordan
Abu Qatada: wait what? jordan? but I can actually be punished there! PLEASE! PLEASE DONT DO IT /GOBBLE /GOBBLE /GOBBLE
British Gov: Oh all right then lets bend to human rights laws yet again to save a cunt thats clearly not fit for this country
 

Job

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I don't beeelive it.
I try some real trolling and it's get's called intelligent.
Anyways, he's just the cartoon character bad-boy, pointless hating on someone so public he's become a parody of himself, much better to keep him close than to hand him over the the Jordanians and increase his profile a 1000 fold.
Still remember, we are the Empire and Al Queda are the rebels, no matter how much you hate that statement, the parallels are stark.
 

Scouse

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Abu Qatada: haha, british scum you are muderous wretch infidels!
British Gov: right deport the cunt to jordan
I think we're murderous invading barbarian scum cunts and would honestly "dance in the street" if someone succesfully took up arms to fight our corrupt economic system. I'm happy to tell anyone I meet that.

Would you deport me for holding that view?

If so, where to?

:)
 

BloodOmen

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I think we're murderous invading barbarian scum cunts and would honestly "dance in the street" if someone succesfully took up arms to fight our corrupt economic system. I'm happy to tell anyone I meet that.

Would you deport me for holding that view?

If so, where to?

:)

Totally invalid, you don't share the same views as him :p he is just pure hate on legs.
 

Scouse

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Totally invalid, you don't share the same views as him :p he is just pure hate on legs.
We'll ignore the fact that we should obviously not be deporting people purely on the views that they hold. But what views don't I share?

I think Britain and US are demonstrably imperialist scum that makes unwitting slaves of its people. As capitalism progresses imperialism is the natural extention (hence the inevitable invasions) and authoritarianism goes hand-in-hand with that. Ideologically, I could quite easily side with almost any act of aggression that would weaken our grip...

Obviously, I'd not want to see our government replaced with a religious institution. One man's Jihad is just another man's Crusade, after all...
 

old.Tohtori

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After a thinky through, yes, some level of torture is ok if there is enough proof to validate it. This means jail level proof of knowledge that would lead to avoiding a major bombstrike etc, not a suspicious looking beardyfella who dined with osama on 1997.

The level of proof and the level of torture is ofcourse debatable.

As said though, regulating it would be a pain in the ass and the torture should be taped to allow scrutiny, with direct guidelines etc.
 

BloodOmen

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We'll ignore the fact that we should obviously not be deporting people purely on the views that they hold. But what views don't I share?

I think Britain and US are demonstrably imperialist scum that makes unwitting slaves of its people. As capitalism progresses imperialism is the natural extention (hence the inevitable invasions) and authoritarianism goes hand-in-hand with that. Ideologically, I could quite easily side with almost any act of aggression that would weaken our grip...

Obviously, I'd not want to see our government replaced with a religious institution. One man's Jihad is just another man's Crusade, after all...

Given the chance you wouldnt kill people, he would thats what makes you so different and the fact hes spreading the very same hate among teens.
 

old.Tohtori

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That's a bit of a assumption, Scouse very well might :D

Actually, a gun, empty room, peadophile priest and i'll think you'll find a LOT of people who would.

And then possibly kill that priest too.
 

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