About the balance in classes (meant for GOA/Mythic)
- Thread starter Jareth Spellfire
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It basically comes down to a trade off between a healer and a sorcerer.
The third healer in the group will most likely be an aug/mend healer so let's compare.
Healer : chain, spreadheal, resistbuffs (if second healer ain't aug also), pr, cm, celerity.
Sorcerer : cloth , long range ae mezz, mezz duration thingy, pow regen, cm, decent damage output, corporeal disintegration ( sort of dot, not sure if many take it ).
Personaly i'd like the healer more(mainly thanks to pr), but the sorcerer is hardly a redundant class and comes regarding usefulness very close.
The third healer in the group will most likely be an aug/mend healer so let's compare.
Healer : chain, spreadheal, resistbuffs (if second healer ain't aug also), pr, cm, celerity.
Sorcerer : cloth , long range ae mezz, mezz duration thingy, pow regen, cm, decent damage output, corporeal disintegration ( sort of dot, not sure if many take it ).
Personaly i'd like the healer more(mainly thanks to pr), but the sorcerer is hardly a redundant class and comes regarding usefulness very close.
Skeggi
Fledgling Freddie
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Fayle said:
How can you compare these 2 one on one!? Sure the healer's RA is better then the sorcs, but this is no comparisation! Albs have SoS and hibs have grouppurge, tbh I'd go for one of those 2 over PR (the ONLY useful mid RA...well....there's ichor...yay). While Albion and Hibernia both have a group RA (SoS and GPurge), mids don't have any (useful...FotG...yay)...so I propose GROUP PERFECT RECOVERY! ;p
Amuse
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Im sorry if waking up an old post like this is anoying to some of you, but was looking for another post with a link and came ower this one.
Healers wears chain, sorcs wear cloth. The sorc will go down in 1-3 hits from a savage, and the healer needs way more, if i remember corectly.
Healers have aoe stunn, INSTANT cast aoe mezz, and normal mezz.
For the bolt range mezz, this means that it will take loonged for the albions to reach the middys/hibbys, and therefor shorter mezz duration.
And not all albs run in FotM groups, and im sure not all mids/hibs do either, therefor not all albs have SoS, infact, there are just as many, if not more albs that does not have it.
Bards have Mana regen, End regen, health regen, mezz, buff, healing.
To get the same regens and stuff of a bard, albion needs: Palladin, Sorc/mincer, Mincer and cleric.
To get a healer albs needs: Cleric, Sorc (not like mincers have the greatest mezz in the world), we dont have aoe stunn, we dont have instant cast aoe mezz.
To get a shammy albs needs: Cabalist, Paladin, Cleric, Wizzard (yes wizzard, for the dmg add and dmg shield)
I am not saying albs doesnt have some nice classes, so dont coem here and say i am an alb whining aboute hibs/mids owerpowering.
I dont know enugh aboute hib/mid to bring the alb classes oute, but i have played Bard, Shammy, healer, Cleric, cabalist, Sorc, and msot of the classes i have mentioned.
And the fact that you have more classes in one, means that you can have even more to protect these utilety classes, or have more of these utilety classes
And as a final statement, i will say something that always will be true.
There will never be complete balance, someone will always whine aboute something, and some1 will always find diferent flaws with diferent classes.
But take a moment and think aboute it, if every realm had all the same abiletys with all the same type of classes, it would be boring to play the game.
Healers wears chain, sorcs wear cloth. The sorc will go down in 1-3 hits from a savage, and the healer needs way more, if i remember corectly.
Healers have aoe stunn, INSTANT cast aoe mezz, and normal mezz.
For the bolt range mezz, this means that it will take loonged for the albions to reach the middys/hibbys, and therefor shorter mezz duration.
And not all albs run in FotM groups, and im sure not all mids/hibs do either, therefor not all albs have SoS, infact, there are just as many, if not more albs that does not have it.
Bards have Mana regen, End regen, health regen, mezz, buff, healing.
To get the same regens and stuff of a bard, albion needs: Palladin, Sorc/mincer, Mincer and cleric.
To get a healer albs needs: Cleric, Sorc (not like mincers have the greatest mezz in the world), we dont have aoe stunn, we dont have instant cast aoe mezz.
To get a shammy albs needs: Cabalist, Paladin, Cleric, Wizzard (yes wizzard, for the dmg add and dmg shield)
I am not saying albs doesnt have some nice classes, so dont coem here and say i am an alb whining aboute hibs/mids owerpowering.
I dont know enugh aboute hib/mid to bring the alb classes oute, but i have played Bard, Shammy, healer, Cleric, cabalist, Sorc, and msot of the classes i have mentioned.
And the fact that you have more classes in one, means that you can have even more to protect these utilety classes, or have more of these utilety classes
And as a final statement, i will say something that always will be true.
There will never be complete balance, someone will always whine aboute something, and some1 will always find diferent flaws with diferent classes.
But take a moment and think aboute it, if every realm had all the same abiletys with all the same type of classes, it would be boring to play the game.
Moriath
I am a FH squatter
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Does it matter whining about ra's all the time when shortly everyone is going to get everyone elses ra and its all going to be over hauld giving no real ra advantage.
So its a redundant argument thats been had many times ..
I would say the major imbalance is its easier to get a functioning pickup group in alb / hib as the mid ones are very restrictive as to what class you have to be.
So the major point in a community game is that general RvR encompasses more of the population in these realms than it does in mid. Which is why ppl in mid tend to roll the FOTM chars to get out and RvR some.
So its a redundant argument thats been had many times ..
I would say the major imbalance is its easier to get a functioning pickup group in alb / hib as the mid ones are very restrictive as to what class you have to be.
So the major point in a community game is that general RvR encompasses more of the population in these realms than it does in mid. Which is why ppl in mid tend to roll the FOTM chars to get out and RvR some.
Archeon
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Cavex ElSaviour said:a Simple answer like, end buff is on a timer or something would have been sufficient
Like I said in my previous post. I was under the impression that the end buff was a conc based buff. But I will stand corrected about that.
Shaman end buff is a conc. based spell, so your half right. However its not the half that matters. Its also on a teather, if people move XXXX units away from the Shaman they lose the regain effect till they get back within.
Also if the Shaman dies it effectivly means that his group loses end for the rest of the battle. Even if he is ressed its unlikley he'l have the time to recast 8 seperate conc buffs, especially if the enemy groups MA is sharp and notices him doing it.
Its all well and good to go on and on about class balance, but realistically speaking this isn't the place to do it. GOA have little to no say in game design and Mythic don't browse these forums.
Closer to the point most people can't be objective about their realm. Most of them see 'Realm X has this, i want it too!' or 'Person X is full of shit because his opinion is different to mine'
Still, i would say RAs are a large source of imbalance - hopfully the RA review in frontiers will correct atleast some of this. As for Insta CC, well fair enough - but if you remove that you still have the arguement than Albs primary CCer is a cloth caster (Re Healer/Bard: He has faster cast-times and more range than us, Re Sorc: They have chain armour and more HP) which will never be fully balanced.
People should focus more on making their classes work for them or experimenting with different spec/group combinations to find somthing which works. And by that i don't mean using a little bit of paper. In theory my Shaman spec sucks, in practice is ro><
Shan
Fledgling Freddie
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Ok probably noted already but..
Firstly, End has range, you MUST have Shaman in group (Duh). Also Shaman is probably most important interrupter in midgroup..
Secondly, of those 2 healers usually only 1 is high PAC. Second is Mend/PAC and 3rd Mend/Aug or Aug/mend. So that's it about Mid having 3 "uber CC classes in group"
Firstly, End has range, you MUST have Shaman in group (Duh). Also Shaman is probably most important interrupter in midgroup..
Secondly, of those 2 healers usually only 1 is high PAC. Second is Mend/PAC and 3rd Mend/Aug or Aug/mend. So that's it about Mid having 3 "uber CC classes in group"
old.Whoodoo
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This is all detracting from the original question about balance and how to improve it.
Firstly, look at the group set ups for the 3 realms. Albs need 5 types of char to give the same amount of a Mid group with 3 (healer(speed/CC), tank, shammy). At present mid has the advantage here, now take off end regen from shammys and lets say give it to either a new race, or to an existing one thats not group or RvR freindly, eg Thanes.
People will still want the shammy for its buffs (add here all buffs should be made range dependant), but now theres room for other classes by nature.
Hibs the same, 4 classes to make the best group.
What I think is the essence of this tread is, give all three realms the same amount of character types, and spread out the things that make them essential to a group. This means all classes get a look in with both RvR and PvE by making them an essential part of a group makeup.
Currently Mythic are looking at the RA situation, and Im sure they will make a lot of changes, so lets not get onto that subject, as in a month or so it will be irrelvant.
Take a long look at the classes with the most to offer, remove something from them and give it to the one with the less to offer, and no, I dont just say this as a Thane, but for the balance in general.
Firstly, look at the group set ups for the 3 realms. Albs need 5 types of char to give the same amount of a Mid group with 3 (healer(speed/CC), tank, shammy). At present mid has the advantage here, now take off end regen from shammys and lets say give it to either a new race, or to an existing one thats not group or RvR freindly, eg Thanes.
People will still want the shammy for its buffs (add here all buffs should be made range dependant), but now theres room for other classes by nature.
Hibs the same, 4 classes to make the best group.
What I think is the essence of this tread is, give all three realms the same amount of character types, and spread out the things that make them essential to a group. This means all classes get a look in with both RvR and PvE by making them an essential part of a group makeup.
Currently Mythic are looking at the RA situation, and Im sure they will make a lot of changes, so lets not get onto that subject, as in a month or so it will be irrelvant.
Take a long look at the classes with the most to offer, remove something from them and give it to the one with the less to offer, and no, I dont just say this as a Thane, but for the balance in general.
Shan said:
Just like to pick up on this one
about the whole end thing. Mid and hib have end which doesn't cost power and its also got a 2000 range (I think). Alb have end regen which costs power and so isn't continuse and only has a range of 1000. Also you don't have to be grouped with a shaman to get end where as you do with a bard or a pally.
Kelio
Fledgling Freddie
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"^^^^^^^^^^ anotherone who dont know how end is working in mid ....
And mids need 2 BBs + shammy in grp to give specs to all grp members ..."
for ur info...
Alb needs 4BBs to buff everyone and the end chant is prolly the worst in the game, you need to /stick the paladin and even when u do you can get out of range. a wizz for dmg add and shield and a theurgist for haste, not to mention a sorc for mezz and a min for speed...
And mids need 2 BBs + shammy in grp to give specs to all grp members ..."
for ur info...
Alb needs 4BBs to buff everyone and the end chant is prolly the worst in the game, you need to /stick the paladin and even when u do you can get out of range. a wizz for dmg add and shield and a theurgist for haste, not to mention a sorc for mezz and a min for speed...
You don't need to know anything about the game to understand the concepts of balance.
Albion has 14 classes.
Hibernia has 13 classes.
Midgard has 12 classes.
Assuming that every realm has access to the same total pool of abilities it means that Midgard characters should, character for character, be able to do more than any other realm. The more classes you have the more diluted your total ability pool gets. To be fair in this scenario you would have to pit 14 Albs vs 13 Hibs vs 12 Mids.
Of course there is one school of thought which says that having the abilities spread out more means that you can employ more of them simultaneously but this only works if you have an equal amount of abilities present. Which of course isn't the case 99% of the time in DAoC. This doesn't even take into account the fact that some abilities are better than others, or at least more valuable in specific situations. When you start to think about this you realise that while the probabilities would favour Midgard in reality it all comes down to how the most important abilities are spread out. Midgard has the best chance to shine but that doesn't mean certain classes in other realms didn't get really lucky and end up with a selection of abilities that are really important. They may have less abilities total but the ones they do have are more valuable.
Furthermore if you try to compensate for the Albion/Hibernia dilution of ability per class by adding more abilities to those realms in proportion to the number of classes (so that any class from any realm is equal 1 v 1) you make your balancing job exponentially harder. And of course you then break the balance when all abilities from each realm are present because one side has fundamentally more than the other.
So you then go and add unique abilities to each realm. Why? Because it makes your balancing job even harder and you are a masochist. I'm not saying that any realm is better than the other (I have no idea what the situation is currently) but if you just break it down logically you can see that things are fundamentally unbalanced:
Basically the choices Mythic made at the beginning have resulted in a game which I would say is not only impossible to balance (like most mmporpg are) but in fact orders of magnitude harder than any others out there.
Albion has 14 classes.
Hibernia has 13 classes.
Midgard has 12 classes.
Assuming that every realm has access to the same total pool of abilities it means that Midgard characters should, character for character, be able to do more than any other realm. The more classes you have the more diluted your total ability pool gets. To be fair in this scenario you would have to pit 14 Albs vs 13 Hibs vs 12 Mids.
Of course there is one school of thought which says that having the abilities spread out more means that you can employ more of them simultaneously but this only works if you have an equal amount of abilities present. Which of course isn't the case 99% of the time in DAoC. This doesn't even take into account the fact that some abilities are better than others, or at least more valuable in specific situations. When you start to think about this you realise that while the probabilities would favour Midgard in reality it all comes down to how the most important abilities are spread out. Midgard has the best chance to shine but that doesn't mean certain classes in other realms didn't get really lucky and end up with a selection of abilities that are really important. They may have less abilities total but the ones they do have are more valuable.
Furthermore if you try to compensate for the Albion/Hibernia dilution of ability per class by adding more abilities to those realms in proportion to the number of classes (so that any class from any realm is equal 1 v 1) you make your balancing job exponentially harder. And of course you then break the balance when all abilities from each realm are present because one side has fundamentally more than the other.
So you then go and add unique abilities to each realm. Why? Because it makes your balancing job even harder and you are a masochist. I'm not saying that any realm is better than the other (I have no idea what the situation is currently) but if you just break it down logically you can see that things are fundamentally unbalanced:
- Three realms is much harder to balance than two would have been.
- Having an uneven number of classes in each realm makes things fundamentally unbalanced in one direction. If you try to compensate for that you end up unbalancing it in the other direction depending on the criteria for the encounter.
- Having different abilities per realm makes your job even harder because instead of balancing like against like you end up having to balance one ability against a different one. This is almost impossible since you can't rate the absolute value of BoF versus insta-mez. You might be able to say one is better but by how much?
- Trying to balance the game for the different size of encounters (single player, group, multi-group or zerg) is likewise very hard when you start having to look at the interplay of different abilities and how easily they stack with each other when multiple sources are present.
Basically the choices Mythic made at the beginning have resulted in a game which I would say is not only impossible to balance (like most mmporpg are) but in fact orders of magnitude harder than any others out there.