About the balance in classes (meant for GOA/Mythic)

Jareth Spellfire

Fledgling Freddie
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Does one realm having more/different classes then the other have any effect on that realm's utility/effectiveness? I think so, see beneath

Albion:
Fighter classes:
Armsman, Mercenary,Paladin,Reaver
Rogue classes:
Minstrel, Infiltrator, Scout
Wizard classes:
Theurgist, Wizard, Necromancer, Sorceror, Cabalist
Healing classes:
Friar, Cleric

Total of 14 classes

Hibernia:
Fighter classes:
Blademaster, Champion, Hero, Valewalker
Rogue classes:
Nightshade, Ranger
Wizard classes:
Eldritch, Enchanter, Animist, Mentalist
Healing classes:
Druid, Warden, Bard

Total of 13 classes

Midgard:
Fighter classes:
Skald, Savage, Warrior, Berserker, Thane
Rogue classes:
Shadowblade, Hunter
Wizard classes:
Bonedancer, Runemaster, Spiritmaster
Healing classes:
Shaman, Healer

Total of 12 classes


The way i see it GOA/Mythic. You owe hibernia another class and midgard two ? Or do you have a logical explaination for it? Balance is the key and i see more and more of my realmmates quitting because of the nerfs and hibernia on our server remains underpopulated (they do a fine job in rvr though i must say)

I wonder if this is about the classic Camelot versus the rest of the world thing? i.e. Albion: Good so must always win / Hibernia: Neutral so might win occasionally / Midgard: Evil so if possible make them lose? Explain please because i really do not understand :)

p.s. ofcourse there are a lot more imbalances in this game tilted towards albion, do not even get me started on that please :p
 

Tafaya Anathas

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Remove Cabalist and Wizard from Albion, Thane from Midgard and sort out the spells/abilities to other classes.
 

Jareth Spellfire

Fledgling Freddie
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You cannot really remove classes since there are already people playing so that isnt a real solution to the problem. Either add more utility to other realms by adding classes or abilities. Right now Albion has both + Higher damage tables on some of their classes which are supposed to be equal.
 

Cavex ElSaviour

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Although Albion has more classes the unballance can't be found there. Nearly all the albion classes are one trick monkeys. If you look especially at the support classes then you can see that a mid/hib char can do a lot more (varuety speaking) then the alb classes. This can be found back in the fotm groups. Mids can run with 3 healers, a skald and 4 tanks (if they have a buffbot for endu). This means 3 times possibilty to CC from the same classes that can heal. Albion needs a pally, a sorc, a minstrel and 2 clerics to come even close in covering the same things 3 healers and a skald can cover. PLUS albion only has 2 healing types and only 1 CC class in the group. (don't know enough about hibbie classes to give comment on that one)

As for imbalance, 90% of the imbalance is in ppls mind imho. Forums like FH and VN-boards where ppl keep whining and whining and whining will plant idea's in ppls heads. And then the next time they loose they will whine aswell.

(Note: there are some imbalance issues, like the cleric smite, archer dmg, savage quad hits etc)


edit: GOA doesnt handle class/realm imballance issues :p
 

Jareth Spellfire

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Sorry i do not read VN boards (if only the TL reports) your example isnt really on the spot to be honest :)

If you combine the sorc / pally / minstrel / 2 clerics what do you have then?

boltrange mezz + the other sorc abilities so chance to mezz sooner then anything inthe game

Pally is a tank with shield spec who has endu chant, in the example you mentioned we have to take a shammy along so one tank less

Minstrel ? Talk about utility im not going to even mention that any further :)

2 clerics? yep you need good healing classes ofcourse. This is just normal

Besides that im not even adressing RA's like SoS / Faith heal and BoF which those 4 primary classes you just mentioned have. Sorry it isnt going to cut down this post :)
 

Korax

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Jareth Spellfire said:
Sorry i do not read VN boards (if only the TL reports) your example isnt really on the spot to be honest :)

If you combine the sorc / pally / minstrel / 2 clerics what do you have then?

boltrange mezz + the other sorc abilities so chance to mezz sooner then anything inthe game

Pally is a tank with shield spec who has endu chant, in the example you mentioned we have to take a shammy along so one tank less

Minstrel ? Talk about utility im not going to even mention that any further :)

2 clerics? yep you need good healing classes ofcourse. This is just normal

Besides that im not even adressing RA's like SoS / Faith heal and BoF which those 4 primary classes you just mentioned have. Sorry it isnt going to cut down this post :)
Sorcs die, 3 healers dont :)
 

Iskander

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these topics have been discussed over and over and over and over...

Albion has more classes, but in RvR they don't perform as well as Midgard & Hibernia. Problem is that for a decent RvR group Albion needs to add more key classes to the group, while the other realms can use key classes that combine multiple roles.
I am sure some good folks over here will explain it in detail, but I have given up answering same things over and over again...
 

fionnel

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Lol, the reason Albion was always gimpy compared to the other realms was exactly because it had more classes which served no purpose. An enchanter in a hib group has a combination of the useful abilities of a cabalist and an ice wizard.

Imo there are imbalances but they don't affect the game up to a point where a realm's group is unbeatable. And tbh, mid is on the top of the food chain at the moment, can't see how you assumed mids lose most of the time versus albs.
 

Cavex ElSaviour

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Yes you do have bolt range mezz, can't argue that. In the setup i gave as an example Midgard has 5 tanks (skald will be seen as a tank as the first poster said). 3 healing classes who are also the 3 CC classes. (this is with BB for endu chant). You can also swap a shammy for a healer, this still leaves you 3 healing classes, 5 tanks and 2 or 3 CC classes. (not sure, but afaik shammies have aoe root).

Albion will have 1 cc class, 2 healers, 4 tanks and a rogue. Although abla is very nice it doesnt count for sheit when you have a 5 man assist train on you. The damage pallies and minstrels can do are laughable compared with a full tank.

Now in a situation where albs spot the mids 100 miles away, albs have the advantage of bolt range mezz. In the situation where the groups just fal on eachother the mids have an advantage with insta mezz. in a " normal" situation the chances are equal imho.

Now concidering the class setup, mods only need to kill 1 puppet to clear the albs CC threat, albs need to kill 2 or 3 to get rid of it.

As for RA's. Thats a whole other ball game. the original poster adressed the realm imbalance due to the number of classes. I wanted to state that a lesser number of classes has a bigger advantage due to the utilty of each class. A minstrel is one of the only multility class in albion. Alb's RA are more powerfull then the mid once. no question about it. But realm imbalance is not due to the number of classes.
 

Jareth Spellfire

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Messages
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Thank you for that then Cavex :) I do see alb groups beat mid groups a LOT, more then the other way around. We get forced to run with Fotm (as you call it) groups because of those RA's then i guess instead of the numbers of classes (they might however give you an advantage in levelling). When we run with normal groups, we just die.

I'd like to know how hibernia does in this? Are you guys forced to run with fotm groups aswell because of those RA's? Or does group purge and BaoD do enough for you?
 

Sparda

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it was good planning by mytic imo.

Mythic knew that a huge amout who played the game would inittialy choose albion, thus they gave alb more classes with less utility because there would be a damn sight more of us on the battlefield.
The other 2 realms were then given less classes with a higher utility so it would balance out and not make mid/hib grps super hard to form.

eg both mid and hib have a pbaoe pet class, albion has to use 2 classes to get the same sort of thing.
 

Zorewin

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wanna balance rvr and the classes?? 1 easy simpel way you all wank about sos i say ok good take it away but take away ALL INSTANT AE STUFF out of the game and voila were at least 3 steps closer to balancing rvr
 

Roo Stercogburn

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I think the only thing that can be said about balance between realms is that its wrong (hey! stating the obvious).

Mythic made a massive mistake trying to balance the classes themselves with RAs on top, which simply resulted in some utterly overpowered combos and utterly useless classes for RvR and classes that aren't so good PvE either.

Mythic have to get two things right first time this year: Frontiers, and the RA overhaul.
 

Amelyn

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I'll quote myself from the other thread.


Amelyn said:
First year of DAoC there was no problem with alb having more classes or mid having less. Cabalists/Thanes/Champions etc all got RvR groups cuz it was fairly balanced. The real problem begun with uber RAs, fotm setups SI and maybe now ToA.
Alot of classes still live in "old DAoC" and have no chance to compete against the new uber-twinked-from-start specs/classes/fotms blablablalba.
Take a look at the Mentalists "mentalism-spec" for example its sick to keep making new ubar itams and classes when some of the classes / speclines etc suck truckloads for RvR / PvE.

The most destroying thing ever implemented to DAoC is "Determination" making Thanes/Reavers/friars/champions/valewalkers etc next to useless, or at least thats what 90% of the community thinks.
All mages except pbae ones have huge problems getting goups today, if even at all.
Realm Abilities aren't very nicely balanced among the Realms.
etc etc etc
But instead of looking into the problems and sorting the errors already made, Mythic keep looking ahead with the $$$-stare and make new ones. :twak:

This is why myself, and I know other ppl aswell, won't buy ToA. It won't work having 70% of the games classes not being played

I could go on writing 1000 lines more but I have to work now or ill get fired :eek7:
Edit:
Oh I forgot to mention Spellcrafting, which made every damn drop pretty useless when it arrived.

Again :puke:
 

Talifer

Fledgling Freddie
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Messages
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Jareth Spellfire said:
Does one realm having more/different classes then the other have any effect on that realm's utility/effectiveness? I think so, see beneath...
Yes, but you've got the conclusion backwards, more classes = weaker realm.

Talifer
 

Bibi

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[Cavex ElSaviour]Mids can run with 3 healers, a skald and 4 tanks (if they have a buffbot for endu).

How buffbot endu works those days ? U live soo in yesterday :p

This means 3 times possibilty to CC from the same classes that can heal.

Not really, mid grp need 3 healers with 3 different spec - one can cc, one can almoust cc, one cant; one can heal , one have buffs

Albion needs a pally, a sorc, a minstrel and 2 clerics to come even close in covering the same things 3 healers and a skald can cover.

+shammy to mid side, what makes 5 vs 5 ... 2xbof+sos+grpheal vs 3x PR+ Fotg ( lol ) + ichor -- need really think what to pick :p

(don't know enough about hibbie classes to give comment on that one)

U dont know about mid classes too, didnt stop u comment here ....
 

Talifer

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Bibi said:
This means 3 times possibilty to CC from the same classes that can heal.

Not really, mid grp need 3 healers with 3 different spec - one can cc, one can almoust cc, one cant; one can heal , one have buffs

Albion needs a pally, a sorc, a minstrel and 2 clerics to come even close in covering the same things 3 healers and a skald can cover.

+shammy to mid side, what makes 5 vs 5 ... 2xbof+sos+grpheal vs 3x PR+ Fotg ( lol ) + ichor -- need really think what to pick :p
Where do the albs get their buffs from? You've assumed mids need an Aug Healer for buffs but left the albs without? Either the albs need an Enh cleric, making them 6 people, or both sides use buffbots making mids 4 people.

But this topic has been covered many times before and it's a pretty well known fact that Midgard need less core people than Hibernia who need less core people than Albion.

Talifer
 

Bibi

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^^^^^^^^^^ anotherone who dont know how end is working in mid ....
And mids need 2 BBs + shammy in grp to give specs to all grp members ...
 

fuber

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Cavex ElSaviour said:
Yes you do have bolt range mezz, can't argue that. In the setup i gave as an example Midgard has 5 tanks (skald will be seen as a tank as the first poster said). 3 healing classes who are also the 3 CC classes. (this is with BB for endu chant). You can also swap a shammy for a healer, this still leaves you 3 healing classes, 5 tanks and 2 or 3 CC classes. (not sure, but afaik shammies have aoe root).

Albion will have 1 cc class, 2 healers, 4 tanks and a rogue. Although abla is very nice it doesnt count for sheit when you have a 5 man assist train on you. The damage pallies and minstrels can do are laughable compared with a full tank.

Now in a situation where albs spot the mids 100 miles away, albs have the advantage of bolt range mezz. In the situation where the groups just fal on eachother the mids have an advantage with insta mezz. in a " normal" situation the chances are equal imho.

Now concidering the class setup, mods only need to kill 1 puppet to clear the albs CC threat, albs need to kill 2 or 3 to get rid of it.

As for RA's. Thats a whole other ball game. the original poster adressed the realm imbalance due to the number of classes. I wanted to state that a lesser number of classes has a bigger advantage due to the utilty of each class. A minstrel is one of the only multility class in albion. Alb's RA are more powerfull then the mid once. no question about it. But realm imbalance is not due to the number of classes.
AHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

Just registered to say that post is TOTAL bullshit and no1 listen to that.
Before you start talking about daoc on these forums make sure you KNOW the game youre commenting on.

Seriously you have no clue about the game so please stop talking out of your ass.
 

Addlcove

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fuber said:
AHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

Just registered to say that post is TOTAL bullshit and no1 listen to that.
Before you start talking about daoc on these forums make sure you KNOW the game youre commenting on.

Seriously you have no clue about the game so please stop talking out of your ass.

how about some counter argumentation instead of calling him an arse and making yourself look like a 13 year old pimplefaced youth that has a PL'ed infil/savage/chanter
 

fuber

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Addlcove said:
how about some counter argumentation instead of calling him an arse and making yourself look like a 13 year old pimplefaced youth that has a PL'ed infil/savage/chanter
how about you read the whole thread and see that bibi already explained it. :kissit:
 

Phixion

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Zorewin said:
wanna balance rvr and the classes?? 1 easy simpel way you all wank about sos i say ok good take it away but take away ALL INSTANT AE STUFF out of the game and voila were at least 3 steps closer to balancing rvr
Yes cos AE Stun does alot when a group of Albs SoS :p
 

Cavex ElSaviour

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Bibi said:
[Cavex ElSaviour]Mids can run with 3 healers, a skald and 4 tanks (if they have a buffbot for endu).

How buffbot endu works those days ? U live soo in yesterday :p

I was under the impression that a shammy buffbot had a endu buff as a conc buff. I stand corrected if that is wrong.

This means 3 times possibilty to CC from the same classes that can heal.

Not really, mid grp need 3 healers with 3 different spec - one can cc, one can almoust cc, one cant; one can heal , one have buffs

All 3 can heal, maybe not the uber heals, but they can heal

Albion needs a pally, a sorc, a minstrel and 2 clerics to come even close in covering the same things 3 healers and a skald can cover.

+shammy to mid side, what makes 5 vs 5 ... 2xbof+sos+grpheal vs 3x PR+ Fotg ( lol ) + ichor -- need really think what to pick :p

Yep, mids need a shammy, but the shammy can stay out of the grp so mids can have an extra class in the grp that can be "more usefull". About the RA's. My post was to make clear that the imbalance wasnt due to the number of classes. I didnt made any comment about the imbalance and I didnt made any comment about RA's

(don't know enough about hibbie classes to give comment on that one)

U dont know about mid classes too, didnt stop u comment here ....
I was under the impression I knew enough about mid classes to give my opnion in this particular post, wether realm imbalance was due to the numbers of classes, as for hibs, i only have a vague idea what the classes are capable of.
 

SilverHood

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Think the original poster needs to add another type of class: The hybrid
Pallies, champs, Thanes, skalds, VW's, wardens, mincers and friars.

The classes that no-one wants in their gank groups, unless they have some super group ability (speed, end regen, etc)

These classes cause the disparity, as albs basically have to have 2 of these in each RvR group, midgard needs one, and hibbies don't need any. (I'm considering bard's a healer class) .
So midgard and hibernia can have one more useful member to a gank group than albs can.
 

Bibi

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Cavex ElSaviour said:
Yep, mids need a shammy, but the shammy can stay out of the grp so mids can have an extra class in the grp that can be "more usefull". .....

Please - try to understand that shammy CANT stay out from grps coz other way group DONT have endurance and tankgrp without endurance is bit hmmm *****. Asmuch midds dont have instawin buttons on QB its kinda hopless win with mid castergrp vs good alb/hibb grp.


^^^^^^ Can some1 tranclate it to albish for him ?
 

Cavex ElSaviour

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a Simple answer like, end buff is on a timer or something would have been sufficient :p

Like I said in my previous post. I was under the impression that the end buff was a conc based buff. But I will stand corrected about that.
 

Jaem-

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The good thing I've seen with albion is that their abilities are spread over chars.

Take mid for an example, healer dies, and your main CC/healer class goes.

Take hib for another example, kill one healing class and you've a dozen more left lool.
 

Skeggi

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Tbh, it's true the numbers of classes should be balanced, and there are some classes overpowered and it might seem that this leads to advantage to albs. But frankly, most albs have no clue what they're doing. They walk around in RvR like mindless zombies breaking mezz like idiots (thx for that btw, I don't think you know who you are but you broke mez on my entire group, but I bet you didn't even notice because you're way to retarded)...so basicly it seems balanced :drink:

/edit This doesn't go for all albs ofc, especially the very annoying stealth-groups.
 

Korax

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Jaem- said:
The good thing I've seen with albion is that their abilities are spread over chars.

Take mid for an example, healer dies, and your main CC/healer class goes.

Take hib for another example, kill one healing class and you've a dozen more left lool.
Kill the bard and you lose all end and CC
Kill one healer and you still got 2 healers left, and the 3rd one back up with PR in less then 0.045 sec.
 

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