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faderullan
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- #31
Without determination group purge and baod would be to good also. As Hib groups wouldnt be able to be mezzed/rooted but alb/mid groups are.
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)nick(
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- #32
Exactly why alb currently has the mezz reduction chant and various other alb only advantages. I think mid should get this very same mezz reduction chant as outlined in my thane changes.
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faderullan
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- #33
10% mez reduce on a sorc (who gets killed first) isnt helping us much. You cant compare that to group purge. Im fine with giving it to thanes too.
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)nick(
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- #34
Alb has SOS to deal with CC just like we have GP. A problem with GP is that you often have to use it as soon as the first big ae mezz lands on the group which often leads to some people getting mezzed in the next 3/4 casts due to resists, and if you wait for these 3/4 casts with firing GP the group is already crippled. SOS doesn't have this with SOS you're basically safe for the entire duration unless you do something stupid.
To be honest this wasn't meant as a realm balancing post more of a RVR class balancing post. I already think the realms are quite balanced as it is with the favour going to albs when ras are up and mids when they're down. The things you mention aren't drastic issues, unlike imo the inbalance between tanks and casters in group combat.
N
)nick(
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- #35
I doubt very much such a simple change would work with the current interupt/surviveability rates of casters.
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faderullan
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- #36
I did say that some of your sudgestions were good. But not all. For example, both mid and hib group can afford a defensive tank in group to guard. Albion cant.
N
)nick(
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- #37
Paladin can't get 50 shield?
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faderullan
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- #38
They can but if paladin guards our mercs run out of endurance. As range on pala end isnt long enough. And 2 mercs without endurance cant kill anything. Especially not anything with 90% guard block who gets chainhealed.
N
)nick(
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- #39
Yes, it will prolong the fight and actually mean instead of just sticking something and spamming one or two buttons we might all have to work a bit harder at killing things and as I mentioned earlier maybe changing targets or *omg* have that reaver who is assisting the merc slam the defensive tank first and then go to work whilst the theurgist is spamming pets from 2k range.
N
)nick(
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- #40
http://daoc-stats.com/guild.php?server=Excalibur&id=2176&mode=chars&sort=lrp&order=DESC
http://daoc-stats.com/guild.php?server=Prydwen&id=1515&sort=lrp&order=DESC&site=1&mode=chars
http://daoc-stats.com/guild.php?server=Excalibur&id=18&mode=chars&sort=lrp&order=DESC
Look at the LRPs.
Do you see where I am coming from?
http://daoc-stats.com/guild.php?server=Prydwen&id=1515&sort=lrp&order=DESC&site=1&mode=chars
http://daoc-stats.com/guild.php?server=Excalibur&id=18&mode=chars&sort=lrp&order=DESC
Look at the LRPs.
Do you see where I am coming from?
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faderullan
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- #41
Its not like the savage/healer groups are impossible to beat or anything.
N
)nick(
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- #42
*Yawn* That's not the point now is it. Go through this thread again and hopefully you'll get back on track.
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tildson
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- #43
Seriuosly, just buy some endpots. Not guarding your support is crazy.
N
)nick(
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- #44
Might be crazy, but as it stands now it's perfectly acceptable.
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tildson
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- #45
If albs on excal, would guard their support when sos had ranned out, i know we would have a much harder time killing it.
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Gorb
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- #46
Great ideas! Too bad these changes will never see the daylight, but we can just hope that maybe someday all classes are equal in terms of rvr.
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Jiggs
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- #47
yes excalibur, such a fun server 
not surprise BF is only active very late at night..
not surprise BF is only active very late at night..
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Dorin
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- #48
guard not helping vs 3-4 tanks on support (sorc with bof + guard dies fast, maybe cleric can last for 10-15seconds
. Some nice ideas there, would make hybrids and casters useful again. Bout pure tanks whining, you should deal the best dmg in melee but should NOT BE imune to CC.
Removing insta CC would be neat aswell, i would agree with that
(even if i loose demezz chant + bolt range mezz) but if you gonna make casting speed the same for bards/healers then give better armor to sorc or give more dmg via nukes or something Too bad we cant force mythic to do some badly needed changes.
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tildson
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- #49
bet u havent seen jaws guarding you then
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Danya
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- #50
Some comments, it's quite a good set of changes, but not quite on the mark I feel.
- All insta cast spells, where no damage has been dealt, have had their interupt components removed. This includes insta roots. These changes do not affect Ichor or insta Amnesia, as Ichor has a DD component and insta Amnesia doesn't interupt.
Good change, way too many interrupts at the moment.
- When a target is immune to a certain type of effect repeated casting of that effect on said target won't trigger an interupt.
Likewise.
- 1 minute immunity timer has been added to disease.
Very good change this.
- Purge now costs 4 points for every class and the timer has been reduced from 30 minutes to 15 minutes.
I think a cost reduction and a time reduction is too powerful. Purge isn't just for CC, this would make it a bit too good. I'd say 8-10 points and 15 mins would be good.
- Determination has been removed from the game.
Bit overkill, det needs a nerf but totally removing it would just make pure tanks useless again. Maybe tone down to 10% per leve, cap at level 4and give to hybrids for an increased cost.
- At 50 shield spec you get Engage II which increases block/guard rate from melee attacks to 90%.
Engage already works with guard, this is a moot. Bear in mind engage is 90% base chance, that's mitigated by having multiple attackers and dual wielders attacking.
- Protect works in RVR by giving the protected target a decreased interupt rate from melee.
Interesting use for protect in RvR. How much reduction? 10% per level? 15? 20? Would multiple protects stack?
- All casted debuffs have been changed from the values 15/30/50 to 10/20/30 respectively.
Not really neccessary with the 1.65 debuffs - the best debuff will typically only get someone to 5-10% resist rather than the -20% you're used to. I think if this change was added it would make the debuffs entirely useless.
- PBT interval has changed from the values 10/8/6 to 8/6/5 respectively.
Boosts PvE without really helping vs assist trains and such in RvR. A slightly faster pulse would do little with 3 or 4 people hitting you together.
- Added new spell in Stormcalling which debuffs a targets Armor Factor:
This would certainly help power up the savages, they need it oh yes. I think a debuff that powerful is too much for a hybrid caster, it would be better on a pure caster if used at all. It would also tip the balance heavily to midgard for melee since your proposed hib version is half as effective and the alb version is not practical to use. This is especially so given the large amount of melee available in midgard.
- Added new spell in Stormcalling which reduces the duration of mesmerisation spells cast upon the group.
The reason for giving the mez reduction to alb was because of the lack of instant CC in the realm. I don't think it's approapriate to give it to mid as well, especially while not giving it to hib given the large amount of insta CC in mid compared to the other realms.
I think it's a good idea to try and buff up thanes to usefulness, but those proposals are just not good for realm balance.
- Changed the Attack Speed debuff from the valor line to an Armor Factor debuff:
This value of AF debuff wouldn't be too unbalancing and given hib's generally large mage population bias this would probably work.
- All insta cast spells, where no damage has been dealt, have had their interupt components removed. This includes insta roots. These changes do not affect Ichor or insta Amnesia, as Ichor has a DD component and insta Amnesia doesn't interupt.
Good change, way too many interrupts at the moment.
- When a target is immune to a certain type of effect repeated casting of that effect on said target won't trigger an interupt.
Likewise.
- 1 minute immunity timer has been added to disease.
Very good change this.
- Purge now costs 4 points for every class and the timer has been reduced from 30 minutes to 15 minutes.
I think a cost reduction and a time reduction is too powerful. Purge isn't just for CC, this would make it a bit too good. I'd say 8-10 points and 15 mins would be good.
- Determination has been removed from the game.
Bit overkill, det needs a nerf but totally removing it would just make pure tanks useless again. Maybe tone down to 10% per leve, cap at level 4and give to hybrids for an increased cost.
- At 50 shield spec you get Engage II which increases block/guard rate from melee attacks to 90%.
Engage already works with guard, this is a moot. Bear in mind engage is 90% base chance, that's mitigated by having multiple attackers and dual wielders attacking.
- Protect works in RVR by giving the protected target a decreased interupt rate from melee.
Interesting use for protect in RvR. How much reduction? 10% per level? 15? 20? Would multiple protects stack?
- All casted debuffs have been changed from the values 15/30/50 to 10/20/30 respectively.
Not really neccessary with the 1.65 debuffs - the best debuff will typically only get someone to 5-10% resist rather than the -20% you're used to. I think if this change was added it would make the debuffs entirely useless.
- PBT interval has changed from the values 10/8/6 to 8/6/5 respectively.
Boosts PvE without really helping vs assist trains and such in RvR. A slightly faster pulse would do little with 3 or 4 people hitting you together.
- Added new spell in Stormcalling which debuffs a targets Armor Factor:
This would certainly help power up the savages, they need it oh yes. I think a debuff that powerful is too much for a hybrid caster, it would be better on a pure caster if used at all. It would also tip the balance heavily to midgard for melee since your proposed hib version is half as effective and the alb version is not practical to use. This is especially so given the large amount of melee available in midgard.
- Added new spell in Stormcalling which reduces the duration of mesmerisation spells cast upon the group.
The reason for giving the mez reduction to alb was because of the lack of instant CC in the realm. I don't think it's approapriate to give it to mid as well, especially while not giving it to hib given the large amount of insta CC in mid compared to the other realms.
I think it's a good idea to try and buff up thanes to usefulness, but those proposals are just not good for realm balance.
- Changed the Attack Speed debuff from the valor line to an Armor Factor debuff:
This value of AF debuff wouldn't be too unbalancing and given hib's generally large mage population bias this would probably work.
D
Danya
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- #51
Few other things to add:
People concerned about pbae boxes - you can still ae interrupt with an ae nuke. They are changed to 3s cast across the board in 1.65.
The thane mez reduce. The more I look at that the more I think it's wrong. Not only would it be going against the mez reduce because of no insta cc, but also it's a more powerful version than the sorcerer one, the sorc mez reduction is a chant - you have to stay within range of the sorc and the sorc has to live. This sort of fire and forget buff is how we ended up with the overpowered end regen situation in midgard. I don't think that needs to happen again.
People concerned about pbae boxes - you can still ae interrupt with an ae nuke. They are changed to 3s cast across the board in 1.65.
The thane mez reduce. The more I look at that the more I think it's wrong. Not only would it be going against the mez reduce because of no insta cc, but also it's a more powerful version than the sorcerer one, the sorc mez reduction is a chant - you have to stay within range of the sorc and the sorc has to live. This sort of fire and forget buff is how we ended up with the overpowered end regen situation in midgard. I don't think that needs to happen again.
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hotrat
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- #52
Hmm some good points.
Interupt with ae nuke? Did I hear that correctly that means grouping with a wizard or smite cleric, I think not; Albs would have to rely on the sorc casting amnesia or use a reaver. Theurgist casting pets on each pbae caster? when they are all bunched together hiding inside firbies and celts, unlikely.
If det was removed then reavers would be a lot more popular in alb groups and they are the best method to interupt pbae groups for sure (and they can slam ).
I dont like the idea of purge every 15 min, I hate it when a tank is hitting my sorc I qc mezz it and he insta purges. I prefer leaving it at 30 mins and adding 40% mezz reduction.
Also GP would be very powerful if you removed Det, mezz reduction chant is crap I never even use it anymore prefering to use speed. SoS is nice but once every 30 min unlike GP which is once every 15 or even 10 mins.
I doubt a hib group would get crippled if they just waited an extra few secs so that all are mezzed.
A paladin cannot guard he must provide end regen to those who need it else what is the point in grouping him? Well a good paladin can guard a bit but you cant have a dedicated guarding tank in a alb group. Also guard is crap vs quad hits, and fotm savages are not rare these days. Also guarding a sorc who is being hit by 3 savages isn't gonna make them live much longer.
Immunity on disease is very needed, the insta's not interupting is a good idea, same with the immunity not interupting.
Giving thanes and champs those abilities still wont get them groups unless det is removed. However if you remove det the first mezz would win, and instant mezz would be too powerful again.
Interupt with ae nuke? Did I hear that correctly that means grouping with a wizard or smite cleric, I think not; Albs would have to rely on the sorc casting amnesia or use a reaver. Theurgist casting pets on each pbae caster? when they are all bunched together hiding inside firbies and celts, unlikely.
If det was removed then reavers would be a lot more popular in alb groups and they are the best method to interupt pbae groups for sure (and they can slam
).I dont like the idea of purge every 15 min, I hate it when a tank is hitting my sorc I qc mezz it and he insta purges. I prefer leaving it at 30 mins and adding 40% mezz reduction.
Also GP would be very powerful if you removed Det, mezz reduction chant is crap I never even use it anymore prefering to use speed. SoS is nice but once every 30 min unlike GP which is once every 15 or even 10 mins.
I doubt a hib group would get crippled if they just waited an extra few secs so that all are mezzed.
A paladin cannot guard he must provide end regen to those who need it else what is the point in grouping him? Well a good paladin can guard a bit but you cant have a dedicated guarding tank in a alb group. Also guard is crap vs quad hits, and fotm savages are not rare these days. Also guarding a sorc who is being hit by 3 savages isn't gonna make them live much longer.
Immunity on disease is very needed, the insta's not interupting is a good idea, same with the immunity not interupting.
Giving thanes and champs those abilities still wont get them groups unless det is removed. However if you remove det the first mezz would win, and instant mezz would be too powerful again.
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hotrat
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- #53
Oh yer and the most powerful hib group atm is:
2 Mana elds
2 hero guardbots
1 bard
2 druids
1 warden
BM groups have a very hard time vs BoF and SoS, although this group will have a harder time vs mid FOTM groups because mid has so many ae interupts.
2 Mana elds
2 hero guardbots
1 bard
2 druids
1 warden
BM groups have a very hard time vs BoF and SoS, although this group will have a harder time vs mid FOTM groups because mid has so many ae interupts.
N
)nick(
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- #54
Why wouldn't you want one healing/smite and one healing/buffing cleric in a group. Ok, they won't have the same kind of utility as a nature druid but still interupt in the same manner (resist rate) we currently interupt with our roots. (Which should not happen after my proposed changes).
If det was removed then reavers would be a lot more popular in alb groups and they are the best method to interupt pbae groups for sure (and they can slam
I dont like the idea of purge every 15 min, I hate it when a tank is hitting my sorc I qc mezz it and he insta purges. I prefer leaving it at 30 mins and adding 40% mezz reduction.
Well what would you suggest for balancing (read: nerfing) determination then, because as it stands now it is out of line as is shown by the current favoured group setups. Even in the 2 mana eld group you claim is the best group there is no point in choosing a 50 shield/50 weapon/whatever valor champion over a hero as he doesn't have determination.
Unfortunately that is the case. As a good healer, druid, cleric or sorcerer you rarely get caught up in the initial mezz, because of the range advantage you have over the dmg dealers of the group and the other realms mezzer's range. So this would mean I'd have to run into the group and stand around there to get mezzed then add on the extra couple of seconds of interuptions you still get from said mezz and tada one or two casters are dead. With SOS it's just a case of hitting it thus giving the groups healers/mezzers damage 'immunity' (especially in combination with BOF which you have every 10/15 minutes) leaving the damage dealers to go to work.
Exactly why a boost to increase the guarding of a 50 shield specced tank (INCLUDING hybrids and not just determination tanks) could make a change in the way people view guarding. Having the best end regen in the realm (insta, for the whole group and on the best defensive class in the game) at the moment I don't think you can complain about not having the ability to just stick to a target and spam one or two buttons not having to worry about end being up, being out of range or the paladin being dead because let's face it hitting a paladin is like hitting your head against a brick wall.
That's why you should see it as a whole and not pick little bits out of the patch and judge them seperately based on the current patch we're playing in europe. Maybe the mezz resist should be upped to 30% for the sorc and for the thane. All these changes made in one fell swoop, IMO, should make the groups a bit more varied and fun for all.
A
Arnor
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- #55
not to be rude, but kindly shut the fuck up.
like casters need more nerfs, god knows we cant have casters that kill stuff in groups, that would just sick
aw fuck it, just justify it to me, please... id really like to see this.
N
)nick(
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- #56
Originally posted by Arnor
not to be rude, but kindly shut the fuck up.
like casters need more nerfs, god knows we cant have casters that kill stuff in groups, that would just sick
aw fuck it, just justify it to me, please... id really like to see this.
You have a RC RM I guess? Explaining further to someone who can't even formulate a decent reply without including various childish profanities would be quite pointless indeed.
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hotrat
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- #57
ae smite is an option but very slow cast and the cleric is likely needed to heal rather than interupt.
I suggested
Hibs can use certain tactics to make sure all are caught in the first ae mezz if they know GP is up. All you gotta do is get ur bard to focus his amnesia/dd's on the sorc and the fight is easily won (unless albs have a reaver, then u gotta slam the reaver and kill him fast ).
Mids have the best end regen on the game on the most surviveable class in the game. Pbae disease on a 8 sec timer makes it almost impossible to kill in melee, chain armor, root and insta root (RA). Paladin is second best but only 1000 range and more annoyingly it doesnt work when he is mezzed/slammed. Also it costs him power and in a long fight in which the paladin has rezzed someone he can go oop and no more end.
As a whole I think mezz would be too powerful vs albs and mids, purge on 15 min timer would not be enough to counter the 30-40 second mezz that would be cast on you every fight
I suggested
I should have added "to all classes, oh and 40% root reduction".
Hibs can use certain tactics to make sure all are caught in the first ae mezz if they know GP is up. All you gotta do is get ur bard to focus his amnesia/dd's on the sorc and the fight is easily won (unless albs have a reaver, then u gotta slam the reaver and kill him fast
).Mids have the best end regen on the game on the most surviveable class in the game. Pbae disease on a 8 sec timer makes it almost impossible to kill in melee, chain armor, root and insta root (RA). Paladin is second best but only 1000 range and more annoyingly it doesnt work when he is mezzed/slammed. Also it costs him power and in a long fight in which the paladin has rezzed someone he can go oop and no more end.
As a whole I think mezz would be too powerful vs albs and mids, purge on 15 min timer would not be enough to counter the 30-40 second mezz that would be cast on you every fight
D
Danya
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- #58
Have you seen the logs from 1.65 debuffs on pendragon? I'm guessing you haven't. Debuffs suck arse in 1.65. In particular debuffing for yourself sucks major arse - the duration is so short you can just about get 2 nukes off in it if you're lucky.
Here's a short log of a mana chanter nuking someone without buffed resists on pendragon. Look at that uber heat debuff that clearly needs a nerf:
[00:23:55] You begin casting a Empower Heat spell!
[00:23:56] You cast a Empower Heat Spell!
[00:23:56] You begin casting a Aurora Blast spell!
[00:23:58] You cast a Aurora Blast Spell!
[00:23:58] You hit for 244 (-30) damage!
[00:23:58] You begin casting a Aurora Blast spell!
[00:24:00] You cast a Aurora Blast Spell!
[00:24:00] You hit for 204 (-125) damage!
It lasts less than 4 seconds and doesn't allow any uber 500+ nuking, the target doesn't go below 0%.
The target goes from 38% to 11% resist. Which sounds about right - AoM is NOT affected AT ALL byt debuffs in 1.65.
V
vindicat0r
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- #59
Pally doesnt need any power to twist end ^^
But for rezzing/ self af buff he sure does so that would suck
Good Idea's in general, Some of them more thought out than other's. Det need's nerfing not getting rid of as then why in your right mind would you roll a Pure tank ?
Hybrid's Can generally hit just as hard if not harder than pure tank's while pure tank's live longer......... so your last to die left mezzd for ages
sounds a little like it used to be. Nobody want's to go back to that :xReduce it to 10% per lvl and increase to old pts it used to cost
1/3/6/10 etc < perhap's even alter that more>
Thane idea's sound very nice but removing/nerfing det and looking at savage dmg and then other tank's in mid become useful again. Giving all of that to a Thane = ubar, I mean Debuff his own melee damage when Thane's were able to hit pretty hard-ish
. Not saying they shouldnt get something but perhap's lower value or make it more effective for group mate's etc.Interupt's need to be fixed, good change's there 2.
All in all, nice post. Hope somebody with influence read's it and takes even something from it because they all sound like reasonable/decent/fair change's that would help RvR out a bit.
J
Jiggs
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- #60
albion gets mezz chant 'cos they dont have insta mezz...