A flaw in the RvR design

[Killgorde]

Now it could be just me, and maybe when the server is "matured" (when a healthy majority have RvR as their only priority as opposed to levelling/kitting, and t4 is fully populated) things will be different, but RvR does feel a little flat. Not in the combat aspect which is fine, but rather the overall feeling of none achievement. Now I do have issues with the end-game (stated elsewhere) that I won't dwell on...but this is more fundamental to general RvR than end-game mechanics.

The problem as I see it (and I could be wrong - my error in the past were well-documented ) is that all RvR zones are geographically shared, in the sense that no realm has any that are part of it's territory by right. And therein lies the crux of the matter. In Daoc, for example, all RvR turf belonged to one of the three realms, and there was an inherent desire to send the invaders back home lest they get cocky and try to mount a relic raid - kinda like your football team playing at home and away. There was a buzz when you tooled up to travel to distant lands to mix with the enemy ontheir home soil. In WH, apart from the city sieges (very grindy and contrived anyway), this aspect of the game mechanic seems a bit flat.

Maybe when the missing cities are in, coupled with a mature server, things will be different. I'm not looking for DaoC II, but there were certain elements to the design of Camelot that fostered a willingness to attack and defend real estate home and abroad, and a satisfaction that seem lacking here.

 

[Deveon]

I think you're onto a valid subject.
Right now there's only a carrot for attacking and capturing keeps / BOs. While the only reward for defending is a sense of "realm pride".
While they've successfully added a purpose in defending the capital cities - players don't want their capital city to lose ranks / locking content for them - the majority of RvR going on is focused in the mid-territories with keeps. And with no reward for defending these keeps it's just things warbands will do "on the way" to capturing BOs or Keeps for renown gain.

So what I propose as a solution to the problem is adding more incentive for players to defend keeps and BO's.

What I had in mind for this was making it so that owning all objectives in a zone gives you alot of VPs over time. Calculated per tier so that owning all objectives will capture the zone in at most 30 minutes. This gives players incentive to defend since they wont be idling there for 6 hours and also encourages [other side] to engage the battle objectives / keeps where the enemy is, and not where it's most empty.

of course it's just a suggestion, 30 minutes might be too short - but would definately give alot of action!

 

[Mabs]

The problem as I see it (and I could be wrong - my error in the past were well-documented ) is that all RvR zones are geographically shared, in the sense that no realm has any that are part of it's territory by right. And therein lies the crux of the matter. In Daoc, for example, all RvR turf belonged to one of the three realms, and there was an inherent desire to send the invaders back home lest they get cocky and try to mount a relic raid - kinda like your football team playing at home and away. There was a buzz when you tooled up to travel to distant lands to mix with the enemy ontheir home soil. In WH, apart from the city sieges (very grindy and contrived anyway), this aspect of the game mechanic seems a bit flat.

way i look at it, in the chaos zone for example:
chaos wastes and upwards is "chaos", reikland and down is "empire" , and (heres an odd analogy for you) Praag is the "north sea" in daoc terms
they are easier to get to , but people certainly pay more attention if the war has moved into their half of the map

 

[Zebolt]

way i look at it, in the chaos zone for example:
chaos wastes and upwards is "chaos", reikland and down is "empire" , and (heres an odd analogy for you) Praag is the "north sea" in daoc terms
they are easier to get to , but people certainly pay more attention if the war has moved into their half of the map

That might be true, but in DAoC they capured realm pride. So far WAR has not. If it's cuz' of the game, the people or just the fact that it hasn't been out long enough I don't know. But the WAR community as it is today is nowhere near as good spirited as the DAoC community was/is. I can't finger point on what made the DAoC community feel realm pride and therefore can't say what's missing in WAR but there sure is something. Hopefully it's just time (I wish ) but I think they need to do something.

 

[Gear]

Well definitely the whole thing regarding realm pride is way different than how it was in daoc. The feeling "for Hibernia" just isn't there, nor does it seem to me that will come into play. Time will tell ofc, remains to be seen.

 

[Mabs]

That might be true, but in DAoC they capured realm pride. So far WAR has not. If it's cuz' of the game, the people or just the fact that it hasn't been out long enough I don't know. But the WAR community as it is today is nowhere near as good spirited as the DAoC community was/is. I can't finger point on what made the DAoC community feel realm pride and therefore can't say what's missing in WAR but there sure is something. Hopefully it's just time (I wish ) but I think they need to do something.

i think the community you are looking for is a thing of the past. remember when daoc first came out, people wanted shiny glowy items , and there was a sense of adventure cos it was more peoples first MMO, now its all min/max from day 1, the "magic" has gone out of it, its purely maths to win
and risking the wrath of the fanboys... daoc WAS a -war-, wow isnt, it doesnt have the same feel to it, so all the wow players dont understand how its meant to work

 

[Bahumat]

In Daoc, for example, all RvR turf belonged to one of the three realms, and there was an inherent desire to send the invaders back home lest they get cocky and try to mount a relic raid - kinda like your football team playing at home and away.

100% agree! I was under the impression that when they announced they would be using the daoc keep system, we would have a frontier. When I found out it was just those lame keeps in the contested land I was really annoyed.

I think what you say is definately true, but I also loved the fact you could take certain towers to stop them porting to the keeps. You could take 2 towers (one from each keep) and secure the portals. Then you could attempt to take the keep.

There was nothing better than logging on saturday morning to see almost all of your realms keeps have been taken. Everyone rallies together and goes to take them back

WAR has epic failed with the keep system imo.

 

[pikeh]

It's because there aren't any Lurikeens.

 

[ebenezer]

i havent got that far on my toon yet. But i can speculate with you guys a bit. And im just a bit worried that we might actually never get the same feel of a "team" as the realm spirit was again. Cause i believe that was part of the first experience of daoc. The feeling of community that grew up there came from knowing very little about online gaming and constantly teaming up for pve getting to know eachother on a daily basis.
After many years in daoc with rerolling other realms/servers etc that faded out and not many in end was intrested in playing for the realm^^

Now in war many might wanna recapture that feel, but it seems we are all just a bit too old and cynical to enjoy it and be as open as we were back then.
But i agree with that it seems to be missing a lot of elements to begin with war. Daoc at least had that setup making it easier to get something to fight for imo.
/ponder.

 

[Maeloch]

That might be true, but in DAoC they capured realm pride. So far WAR has not. If it's cuz' of the game, the people or just the fact that it hasn't been out long enough I don't know. But the WAR community as it is today is nowhere near as good spirited as the DAoC community was/is. I can't finger point on what made the DAoC community feel realm pride and therefore can't say what's missing in WAR but there sure is something.

Perhaps it's different when you ding 40, but with all these scenarios and PQs it seemed to me they almost engineered out the game any requirement to socially interact with anyone. So where is the realm spirit gonna come from? More accessible, but now something is missing - you can't have it all.

 

[aika]

Perhaps it's different when you ding 40, but with all these scenarios and PQs it seemed to me they almost engineered out the game any requirement to socially interact with anyone. So where is the realm spirit gonna come from? More accessible, but now something is missing - you can't have it all.

same, dinged 40 like 2 weeks ago, played my char only 3 times after it ;<

 

[Ahlgard]

There is not much homeland feeling in WAR but at least contrast is pretty nice. Playing Order it was cool coming from the greener Reikland to Chaos Wastes and its dark lands and keeps etc. The Daoc Realm feeling however was something magical. Especially in OF, porting to Emain from Svasud for the first time, getting totally owned by a Hero as a Skald wielding one handed sword and shield Those where the days!

 

[Old Nicodemus]

I get the feeling that I am playing a solo game in an mmporg enviroment. You know something is wrong when the npcs spam more than the players.

The way the maps are laid out it feels like order should have the better realm bonding and identity than destruction as everything is centered around Dest forces invading order lands. There seems to be no real feeling of the same need to defend what is ours from the dest point of view. Perhaps this is a flaw in the way the game has been designed and what we are all missing from DAoC, that and the unkown factor of a third side.

 

[Xandax]

I personally think - while there is something to the argument about "our land" and "their land" - that a lot of this is still shrouded in the nostalgic feelings many of us have regarding DAoC, as Mabs also suggests.

Many of us had some very good times in that game, however I played it for 3 years not regarding my months on the US classic servers, and I do personally recall terrible sessions as well, I recall a lot of drama both internally within a realm and externally with the "enemy" etc.

When many people think back at DAoC they remember some of their first relic raids, some of the most daring raids, events such as the weekend long fights in Midgard frontier, bloody bledmeer and what not. But many forget the spawn camping, the waiting for spawns, the lag, the bugs etc - and especially the inter-realm infighting and drama.

It is easy to see DAoC in the "golden light" now, because it is passed for many of us, and people tend to remember the fun more then the hardship. Heck I even do with my time in the army despite deep down I remember how much I actually hated most every day in there.

So when Warhammer "fails" to live up to not only the DAoC, the game itself but also the nostalgic feeling and sense, it is easy to be disappointed in it.
I know I felt very much the same when I quit DAoC and started playing EVE Online, and then tried a couple of beta tests of other games, until WoW came out, where I found other (new) challenges compared to what and how I played in DAoC.

I actually think it is very unfair for many of us to jugde Warhammer in DAoC's light because DAoC stands for many as the epitome of the RvR concept, and well - at the heart of RvR is a semi-consequential, yet lighthearted, form of PvP.

So I think the missing realm feeling, and realm pride, is as much as result of expectations then actual failing of the game.
Yes, many people don't chat much in this game but there are a couple of reasons for that.

1) There is usually not much downtime in PvE or RvR. In DAoC (old school DAoC) there were rather large periods of downtime between pulls. Mana, endurance etc. You had to drive through larger RvR zones to get to the action.
In Warhammer the action is more instant. That leaves less time to actually be social with grouping with "random" people, because there is more action.

2) There is less need for grouping. Positive or negative doesn't matter, but when people can solo, people do solo. Now I've always been a rather high amount of solo-player. Even solo leveling most of the time in DAoC (without buffbots ). But now it is a viable option and you don't *have* to risk the PUGs.

3) People already exists in social settings. Many of the people I play with and are in guild with are old MMO friends. That means I already know people and don't need to socialize a lot with others to get to know them.

4) People didn't socialize constantly in DAoC either. I remember many people being "anon" so they wouldn't have to talk to other people unless they themselves initiated the conversations.

And well - basically - if "you" feel there is too little socialization going on - taking initiative and getting some started, then perhaps it'll spread

(sorry - wall of text, I know - I've tried to paragraph it a bit to help )

 

[pikeh]

I personally think - while there is something to the argument about "our land" and "their land" - that a lot of this is still shrouded in the nostalgic feelings many of us have regarding DAoC, as Mabs also suggests.

Many of us had some very good times in that game, however I played it for 3 years not regarding my months on the US classic servers, and I do personally recall terrible sessions as well, I recall a lot of drama both internally within a realm and externally with the "enemy" etc.

When many people think back at DAoC they remember some of their first relic raids, some of the most daring raids, events such as the weekend long fights in Midgard frontier, bloody bledmeer and what not. But many forget the spawn camping, the waiting for spawns, the lag, the bugs etc - and especially the inter-realm infighting and drama.

It is easy to see DAoC in the "golden light" now, because it is passed for many of us, and people tend to remember the fun more then the hardship. Heck I even do with my time in the army despite deep down I remember how much I actually hated most every day in there.

So when Warhammer "fails" to live up to not only the DAoC, the game itself but also the nostalgic feeling and sense, it is easy to be disappointed in it.
I know I felt very much the same when I quit DAoC and started playing EVE Online, and then tried a couple of beta tests of other games, until WoW came out, where I found other (new) challenges compared to what and how I played in DAoC.

I actually think it is very unfair for many of us to jugde Warhammer in DAoC's light because DAoC stands for many as the epitome of the RvR concept, and well - at the heart of RvR is a semi-consequential, yet lighthearted, form of PvP.

So I think the missing realm feeling, and realm pride, is as much as result of expectations then actual failing of the game.
Yes, many people don't chat much in this game but there are a couple of reasons for that.

1) There is usually not much downtime in PvE or RvR. In DAoC (old school DAoC) there were rather large periods of downtime between pulls. Mana, endurance etc. You had to drive through larger RvR zones to get to the action.
In Warhammer the action is more instant. That leaves less time to actually be social with grouping with "random" people, because there is more action.

2) There is less need for grouping. Positive or negative doesn't matter, but when people can solo, people do solo. Now I've always been a rather high amount of solo-player. Even solo leveling most of the time in DAoC (without buffbots ). But now it is a viable option and you don't *have* to risk the PUGs.

3) People already exists in social settings. Many of the people I play with and are in guild with are old MMO friends. That means I already know people and don't need to socialize a lot with others to get to know them.

4) People didn't socialize constantly in DAoC either. I remember many people being "anon" so they wouldn't have to talk to other people unless they themselves initiated the conversations.

And well - basically - if "you" feel there is too little socialization going on - taking initiative and getting some started, then perhaps it'll spread

(sorry - wall of text, I know - I've tried to paragraph it a bit to help )

Great post, in the Rep I gave you, I accidently pressed enter half way through writing 'Great' so there ya go

And Id just like to add, starting conversations with people dosen't involve telling them how useless they are. I'm guilty of that of occasion and just try to be more helpful than not now.

 

[Killgorde]

Nice response Xan and all very valid points.

One thing that strikes me is when you compare FH server-specific forums for Warhammer K8P and Excal/Pryd DaoC. If I remember correctly the old Barrys come Freddys Excal and prydwen forums (with every conceivable sub-forum) were very active way before most dinged 50, whereas K8P (as an example) is one lone section and a virtual graveyard in comparison. From a community point of view its a bit worrying - not the fact that FH havent put up a host of server-specific sub-forums, but that there appears to be little demand from the players for them to do so.

 

[GReaper]

I think the realm pride might soon become a part of WAR, up until now it's been rather buggy.

Order found it near impossible to defend their zones at the very start of the game, I'm sure you've all seen the screenshots where Destruction gets just 1 objective and captures a zone. It seemed pointless for them to defend until they fixed it.

After the patch to increase the difficulty of capturing zones they made it too difficult, neither side could capture a zone so everyone has been farming RPs by capturing objectives and not bothering attacking if there are any defenders. Why bother attacking a keep if it might be a bit too difficult to capture? It's easy enough to just switch to another objective or keep and come back for it later.

Hopefully the most recent patch might change things if the amount of victory points needed has dropped. Both sides might rush to defend if a zone is actually under threat of being captured.

 

[Aiteal]

Karag Dron order has a nice sense of community I've found
Joined a big (oRvR/zerg)-centric guild called Radiant Knights and the game's fun factor has improved drastically for me.

They organise big alliance oRvR nights, which they post about on WHA
Last week we had 3 warbands per side in a night of T3 fun. (Destro seemed to have fewer in the field that night)

I've avoided scenarios in the game so far, and really don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.
I honestly don't think scenarios do anything to foster realm pride.

 

[Xandax]

Nice response Xan and all very valid points.

One thing that strikes me is when you compare FH server-specific forums for Warhammer K8P and Excal/Pryd DaoC. If I remember correctly the old Barrys come Freddys Excal and prydwen forums (with every conceivable sub-forum) were very active way before most dinged 50, whereas K8P (as an example) is one lone section and a virtual graveyard in comparison. From a community point of view its a bit worrying - not the fact that FH havent put up a host of server-specific sub-forums, but that there appears to be little demand from the players for them to do so.

Well - while the amount of communication is less here on FH then it was back in the BW/FH days, a lot of the communication now takes place on other forums and in the general forums.

I'm not sure I'll attribute this to lack of "realm pride" or "realm community", but more so to faster access to online resources (wardb, alkazham or what they are called), auction house in the game (no need to spam forums with WTS glowing twilight sword) and other forums with a large active general sections (WHA and VN boards).
There is rarely the same need to coordinate or ask for help anymore as there was back in those days.
Plus I seem to recall most of the communication took place in the RvR sections of the forum, where a lot of the discussion was Albion zerg, Hib baseline stun, Midgard AE insta cast stun and alarm clock raids (and a specific football championship raid we did )
When we eliminate the drama and berating, the actual communication seemed to go down to help with quests, selling stuff or help with game mechanics.
Oh - and in DAoC a larger part of the communication revolved aorund speccing and templates. Another aspect which is much smaller in this game (yet).

I agree with you that the same feeling of realm pride isn't existent in Warhammer as it was in DAoC, and it is very possible that a factor has to do with "our land" versus "their land".

I however think it has much more to do with the fact that we as gamers have evolved (devolved in some cases), and the points I've mentioned about the game.

Will it hurt Warhammer? That is hard to say - I found community in WoW to be pretty shitty anyway, and many people kept mainly to guilds unless they were forced to PUG dungeon crawls. The forums was the official ones mainly - and guild forum - and most was just drama about who stole what loot and who killed what boss or who had most time to grind the PvP.
However WoW is going strong still ( saw they supposedly had 11mill subscriptions now) .

I wouldn't mind more realm pride myself - but I do see we have the makings of the drama already. Destruction going after Altdorf when it was bugged and the usage of Rift/Magnet through doors and what not.
It just doesn't seem to happen on this forum.

I think we need to give it some time before we can judge it. The first many RvR experiences I had in DAoC was me trying to hit a door (I still do not understand how I can miss a big ass door on a big ass keep ), or zerging Milegate to TK. It took time for the FG vs FG to roam, it took time for Bloody Bledmeer to happen. If we start seeing more combat in the RvR zones, then I'll be interested in seeing whether realm pride grows or not.
And combine this with the fact that DAoC and RvR was new, exiting etc, then I do not really consider it strange that it is "lite" in Warhammer at the moment.

 

[Faeldawn]

Now it could be just me, and maybe when the server is "matured" (when a healthy majority have RvR as their only priority as opposed to levelling/kitting, and t4 is fully populated) things will be different, but RvR does feel a little flat. Not in the combat aspect which is fine, but rather the overall feeling of none achievement. Now I do have issues with the end-game (stated elsewhere) that I won't dwell on...but this is more fundamental to general RvR than end-game mechanics.

The problem as I see it (and I could be wrong - my error in the past were well-documented ) is that all RvR zones are geographically shared, in the sense that no realm has any that are part of it's territory by right. And therein lies the crux of the matter. In Daoc, for example, all RvR turf belonged to one of the three realms, and there was an inherent desire to send the invaders back home lest they get cocky and try to mount a relic raid - kinda like your football team playing at home and away. There was a buzz when you tooled up to travel to distant lands to mix with the enemy ontheir home soil. In WH, apart from the city sieges (very grindy and contrived anyway), this aspect of the game mechanic seems a bit flat.

Maybe when the missing cities are in, coupled with a mature server, things will be different. I'm not looking for DaoC II, but there were certain elements to the design of Camelot that fostered a willingness to attack and defend real estate home and abroad, and a satisfaction that seem lacking here.

Completely agree.

 

[Cadelin]

i think the community you are looking for is a thing of the past. remember when daoc first came out, people wanted shiny glowy items , and there was a sense of adventure cos it was more peoples first MMO, now its all min/max from day 1, the "magic" has gone out of it, its purely maths to win

Today's MMORPGs will never capture the same team spirit as when they first came out 8 years ago.

Needing 50+ people for a raid was considered a challenge for large guilds. Now its considered a chore or elitist.
Extremely laggy zerg fights were exciting now they are tedious or game breaking.
Grouping and grinding exp was the only option and people found it fun because they had never done it before. Now it would be considered game breaking if you can't login for an hour do something solo and still nearly achieve as much as somebody grouping.

Realm spirit was fostered because you NEEDED your realm mates to get anywhere. There were boring aspects of the game but these were accepted because there were very few games out there and most players were frequent gamers. Now the market has many games and the majority of games do have real lives.

 

[Boggy]

Community in DAoC was partly about identity, partly about needing to group, and partly about social tools (like the right chat channels).

The need to group is something Mythic clearly recognised. PQs I would guess were intended to encourage people to work together. I don't think you're supposed to be able to solo them. Not sure it all works as intended. You hear about people doing PQs in tiny groups or getting high level friends to help them.

The problem is, when you make things so hard they NEED to group (e.g. master levels in TOA) people get frustrated. Sometimes a group isn't around when you are able to play, and so you get stuck.

The tools for grouping seem better than most games. Open groups are a nice idea, and some important channels are there (e.g. /as). I'd have preferred to see a system like CoX, where you can lackey/sidekick into groups (your level gets artificially boosted to that of someone else while you are with them), because this gets around a lot of the situations where there are not enough people at your own level to form a group.

Identity is the big problem, as others have said. The realms are too inter-mixed geographically, and too samey in concept. Oh yes, they are OPPOSITE, but really elves and dark elves, empire humans and chaos humans don't seem distinct enough to me. Plus there are only 2 realms - what a mistake.

 

[Belisar]

A lot of good points here.

DAoC was more community based. For most of us it was just the right way to play the game.

I remember going on guild hunts with a toon far lower than the others around me. It was a nice XP boost for me once in a while and the main aim was to help people out equipment wise. The way this game is set area wise does not allow that so much, as you only really get to run around with peeps close to your own level.

The flip side is the PQ's. You are forced to group although if you can be bothered to grind it out for the influence reward you can do. I worry as the game matures as to how many peeps will be around to group up for the PQ's.

I also remember running out with a low level toon to help defend the realm in some way (nostalga perhaps). There was a yell over a channel and peeps would rush to help out. That response did fade over time but it would be nice to re-capture it somehow.

 

[Ogen]

I think the difference is not having frontiers. Ie, everyone in the same zones in war dosent give the fealing of being "home", nor does the rvr areas.
Take it this way.. In daoc, the keeps belong to a realm, allways. Altho they could be taken and held by the other realms, they would still be placed in enimy territory.
We had pride in the hibernia frontier, and therefor defended it well.
In war, if we see a keep being taken, we dont really give a rats ass, as it dosent feel like it "belongs" to us anyhow, so why defend it..

Add the relic aspect, and i think that sums up the rvr failure of war pretty well..
Plus, scenarios dosent help either. They keep people away from the world rvr, just like it happened in wow.. Everyone doing battlegrounds, and nobody in the rvr zones.

/Ogen

 

[Zebolt]

I think the difference is not having frontiers. Ie, everyone in the same zones in war dosent give the fealing of being "home", nor does the rvr areas.
Take it this way.. In daoc, the keeps belong to a realm, allways. Altho they could be taken and held by the other realms, they would still be placed in enimy territory.
We had pride in the hibernia frontier, and therefor defended it well.
In war, if we see a keep being taken, we dont really give a rats ass, as it dosent feel like it "belongs" to us anyhow, so why defend it..

Add the relic aspect, and i think that sums up the rvr failure of war pretty well..
Plus, scenarios dosent help either. They keep people away from the world rvr, just like it happened in wow.. Everyone doing battlegrounds, and nobody in the rvr zones.

/Ogen

Spot on! Well put, I can imagine that might just be the reason.

 

[Akyra]

i think you all have had some good ideas there, i would like to see things belonging to a realm for us to go take. I have just spent the whole time it took me to lvl through tier 2 looking at the objectives waiting for order to take them so we could go take them back

but they didnt grr, if only they could share them out as to who owns what, and we capture them, capture the zone, then after a time out, they all reset back, then we would have something other than scenarios to do to get our renown

 

[Muylaetrix]

many good points here.

oh well, we can hope that mythic will make a NF in war someday i guess in order to more capture the teritorial `my land` feeling instead of fighting over pointless battle objectives.

about the community. when i started in daoc... how long ago was that again ??? about 7 years ago ? for the first few months i only knew a few irl people and some some people of the guild (it was those irl people that got me in to the guild in the first place). now in war, we practically moved with our complete alliance from daoc (knights of pendragon / humberton guard / the dragon fighters / the merry men) to the same server in war and recreated our daoc allliance and once the alliance bugs in the game were fixed, we had an up and running community of people where 75 % of the people have known eachother for years by now. in daoc, it took 6 months to a year to get to this kind of community. Also, already having such a community in place, virtually from day one of the launch has severy dimminished the need to socialize outside of the /as as most anything we can think of, we can just organize in our own /as.

on the other hand, those scenarios and pq`s are a great way to meet new people and there are often a few people who stick out that you keep contact with, even long after said scenario or pq has ended.

daoc had stronger points that war on some aspects of the game and vice versa.

i hope mythic is able to add some realm pride and stuff to the game which seems lacking at the moment. maybe the game is just not old enough yet to create that sort of feeling.


right or wrong - my country. (jochen peiper)

 

[CowledScout]

Dig out the old posts.

Me + Rami stated the above from the end of the open beta. Rami even got warned by Flim-mod... and i got one for saying roleplayers like Pikeh are free rps.

Everyone were against us - where are THOSE people today? Pikeh?

 

[pikeh]

Dig out the old posts.

Me + Rami stated the above from the end of the open beta. Rami even got warned by Flim-mod... and i got one for saying roleplayers like Pikeh are free rps.

Everyone were against us - where are THOSE people today? Pikeh?

Here?
how the fuck am I a roleplayer lol?
I was 'against' you because you acted like a cock, and the fact your still hanging around a game forum for a game you don't like or play.

 

[Zebolt]

Dig out the old posts.

Me + Rami stated the above from the end of the open beta. Rami even got warned by Flim-mod... and i got one for saying roleplayers like Pikeh are free rps.

Everyone were against us - where are THOSE people today? Pikeh?

CowledScout
Regular Freddie
Join Date: 22nd Jul 2008

Old posts? Come again? :>