1.82E live on pendragon

[Celestino]

@ poppa:

i don't agree with allowing dex to affect spellweaving and reducing spellweaving castime to 2.8 sec that would once again make them so fuckin uber just in another way

If warlocks are to be fixed they need to redesign the whole class, focus on spellweaving and making primars a secondary ability that is only used in certain situations.

I've posted this a few times already:

#1 reduce number of chambers to 1 and have lowerlvl chambers hit for reduced damage
#2 some of this happened just in 1.82, lowerlvl UI primers have reduced damage; but should also have reduced power cost
#3 change spellweaving(cursing) spec spells to be affected by dex but leave the castime at 4 sec
dex will reduce the castime difference noticeably and don't forget u will still be hitting 2 spells instead of 1 (1.2-1.5 base castime for the 2nd spell instead of 2.5-2.8 for a standard caster casting 2 spells)

The result would be a real spellweaver hitting for slightly more damage over time than standard casters while having a free instacast every fight as well as a shitload of tools to choose from

Depening on spec the warlock i propose would look like this:
primary spells: 224 dd; 326 bolt;399 heal; 56sec heal
secondary spells: 135 lt, 218 pbae; 135-180 spreadheal; 30 sec snare, 55-65% ns
each combination casting at a cap of 1.6 sec
primers: 1st UI at around 30% power and 70% effectivness; range at 1750; powerless 6 sec castime (2.4s capped)
and a ~30% redux lvl 8 chamber (for example: ~160dd+95lt)

It would still have a certain catacombs bonus and would remain a strong class with a lot of grpability but it would fix the main issue of warlocks: instakill on sight burstdamage with nothing left to followup

 

[Corran]

Not completley true or maybe I have missed something. The thought is the same as for an ordinary caster using MoC but as a Warlock to have the same effectivnes when MoCing (UIing) you have to sacrifice damageoutput in the hexline where a normal caster does not have to change their spec (the more you put into it the better UI youll get but the worse spell damagewise you'll get). Or maybe this is just the tought mythic had

I think warlocks needed a nerf but this is a bit wierd me thinks.

But compare the affects of this to moc.

moc1 25% - so just with one spec point you got a better moc (60%)
moc2 50% - so 1 spec point is still better then this (60%)
moc3 75% - 29spec is equal to this (75%)

and then on top of this you can get a 80% and 100% one if you do wish to go higher.

Every class has to make a choice in spec to be effective, at the moment warlocks dont have that issue. This will force them to make decisions a bit more, and yet even without it they are still the equal as most moc casters just with their low level uninteruptable.

 

[inqy]

They are not equal corran though, due to the power costs. Reduce them and then it's coming closer to balanced imo.

Or tweak the curse line spells cast times.

Something needs a little tweaking though, with these fixes/nerfs going in the warlock has lost it's burst damage and it never had anything else going for it. So either needs something back or a change in focus (eg boost in another way).

 

[popa]

@ poppa:

i don't agree with allowing dex to affect spellweaving and reducing spellweaving castime to 2.8 sec that would once again make them so fuckin uber just in another way

what i just try to tell if make that change i ganna play the wl whit out the damn UI just give a decent base cast time

It would still have a certain catacombs bonus and would remain a strong class with a lot of grpability but it would fix the main issue of warlocks: instakill on sight burstdamage with nothing left to followup

until WL get chamber the ppl dont ganna group a WL couse until load chamber after a combat what make the group yes the group STAY and not many groups can aford that on rvr

 

[popa]

They are not equal corran though, due to the power costs. Reduce them and then it's coming closer to balanced imo.

even if drop the pow cost stil sux couse u have to wait 3 sec to cast a UI

 

[Muylaetrix]

seems good.

we`ll have to see ofc.

now if they would only nerf baseline lifetaps and baseline stuns on some caster classes .

keep em comming those patches i`d say.

 

[Aeris]

you wont have to wait 3s at all, theyve nerfed the cast speed form 2s to 3s for the UI, which with high dex wont be all that different.

tbh they need to make the curse spells usable with primers

 

[Corran]

They are not equal corran though, due to the power costs. Reduce them and then it's coming closer to balanced imo.

Or tweak the curse line spells cast times.

Something needs a little tweaking though, with these fixes/nerfs going in the warlock has lost it's burst damage and it never had anything else going for it. So either needs something back or a change in focus (eg boost in another way).

The negative issues (cast time and power cost) are that way because you have it available to you 24/7 instead of on a timer. You still got the advantage of saving the need to go into moc. How does this help? Well instead of 30points to go in moc, you can stick 30points in Raging Power which gives you another full bar of mana to use, or you could place it all in mom/wp which a caster of equivalant RR wouldnt be able to do.

At rr5+ you can have a warlock which is loaded in passives and have very power nukes, whereas said normal caster nukes alot weaker because they havent got a high level of MoM/WP, instead they stuck at least 15points in MoC, most likely DEX3 minimum (not something wl's needed to worry about yet) etc. Personnally, i would love to roll a warlock and ToA it for the simple reason to group with people and prove it got more then enough utility and power to disregard most whines, unfortunately my accounts are linked to Hib on the cluster and i aint playing on foriegn server

 

[inqy]

The negative issues (cast time and power cost) are that way because you have it available to you 24/7 instead of on a timer. You still got the advantage of saving the need to go into moc. How does this help? Well instead of 30points to go in moc, you can stick 30points in Raging Power which gives you another full bar of mana to use, or you could place it all in mom/wp which a caster of equivalant RR wouldnt be able to do.

At rr5+ you can have a warlock which is loaded in passives and have very power nukes, whereas said normal caster nukes alot weaker because they havent got a high level of MoM/WP, instead they stuck at least 15points in MoC, most likely DEX3 minimum (not something wl's needed to worry about yet) etc. Personnally, i would love to roll a warlock and ToA it for the simple reason to group with people and prove it got more then enough utility and power to disregard most whines, unfortunately my accounts are linked to Hib on the cluster and i aint playing on foriegn server

Glastonbury?

Remember it's not just how well you perform it's others opinion of warlocks that are also the problem. They are a very poorly viewed in mid and tbh I would as I said above always choose a RM/SM above a warlock UNLESS we were specifically going to be bombing.

 

[Corran]

Glastonbury?

Remember it's not just how well you perform it's others opinion of warlocks that are also the problem. They are a very poorly viewed in mid and tbh I would as I said above always choose a RM/SM above a warlock UNLESS we were specifically going to be bombing.

Classic server = no.

Reason being that I like artifacts and also more chance of a group coming available.

Artifacts means things like extra power and powerpool easily achievable (tarts/jacina/DR weapon though that available on all) and in 1.81 it would be easy to get equipped

Oh, and the alb zerg is farmable for raging power and passives

And yes, peoples views of a warlock would need changing, but that is the whole point. To show them how effective they can be if spec'd (main thing tbh as all just chamber dumpers atm) and played correctly. I mean, most dont even know they got a snare

 

[popa]

you wont have to wait 3s at all, theyve nerfed the cast speed form 2s to 3s for the UI, which with high dex wont be all that different.

tbh they need to make the curse spells usable with primers

1 moc is instant
2 u have to stant still

 

[popa]

Well instead of 30points to go in moc, you can stick 30points in Raging Power which gives you another full bar of mana to use, or you could place it all in mom/wp which a caster of equivalant RR wouldnt be able to do.

nah whit 100% mana how many UI u make 5-6-7
and after that u oop and make pure cast or

 

[Corran]

nah whit 100% mana how many UI u make 5-6-7
and after that u oop and make pure cast or

so you get 5-7casts from that, you have 5-7casts from your opening power, you have 3-4 casts from DR staff, Use power pots at start and they be refreshed so get 2 casts extra.... and this is all with using the uninteruptable?
Add to this the fact that you got your chambers you enter the fight with so have initial dps that not to do with power, and infact you dont have to blast them instantly, it more effective if you wait till opportune moment to fire them, say release a chamber when cleric/caster is on low health to prevent insta heal getting used.


Really, that doesnt seem so bad to me, it takes some effort maybe, but it about the only thing to do with a warlcok that does.

 

[Celestino]

a well equipped wl will be able to do lots of UIs if u think about all the options he has, tartaros / DR staff charge, jacinas, powerpots, raging power

so oop takes some time

 

[popa]

will al that power how much dmg he can make let say 5k 6k
and a normal nuker how much dmg can make whit a full pow bar + charge let say at 50% ( even whit moc up )
????

 

[Golena]

Yes a class with insta nearsight and unbreakable snare is truly crap now they can't stand in the middle of a zerg and instakill everything with 1 cast.

Go learn to play your class, then come whine imo!

A warlock is a caster with obscene amounts of utility, start using it for the utility instead of the sick damage and the nerf makes no difference.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Flim: The fact that you fancy playing it now m8, means it must be gimp doesn't it?

Have been pondering a full curse spec one for a while but still thought it'd be too good

 

[Mas]

Now goa is forcing ppl to be a utility warlock.

Specing high in curse is lowering the dmg line which is hex, wohoo for 5 chambers all full of nearsight and snare, with 12 in hex my LT is gonna rox and wont even get pom regen or spreadheal. Truly fucked up nerf.

If you want to nerf warlocks properly, lose the chambers and UI casts and give dex modified casts that are interweaveable. Forcing ppl to go high into curse to get more of a damage cast when the dmg is in the hex line dont make sense, its like asking a sorc to spec matter to get aoe mezz, when all the fun/dmg is in a seperate line. Warlocks will be nothing more than a nearsight bot and one that cant even cure nearsight either. UI casting atm for warlocks is essential due to slow base dmg spells, fair enough leeching off a zerg is easily done with powerless but running in a grp into a full grp of hibs/albs no warlock has the time to powerless much if the other grp is any good.

With a nerf like the above "moc type" dmg reductions they should remove the enormous power usage of UI give normal power usage but no we will get 5-6 casts of 40% nerfed dmg before we are spent. Well it makes some ppl happy i suppose, and least warriors get some love so its not that bad.

Have been pondering a full curse spec one for a while but still thought it'd be too good

May be fun in the BG's but lvl 50 rvr will suck bad hence how many do you see around today, gimp spec, doesent even increase chamber cast time which it should. (no pom no pbaoe no spreadheal no LT) base nuke base dd and snare and nearsight, not fun...

 

[Celestino]

well moc is 30 seconds
cap castime for lifedrains ~1 sec
moclifedrains are 75%*179 = 134;*3 +10% toa; 443*29 --> 12847, 13k
warlock:
lets assume: 7 casts from 1 manabar, +4 tartaros +4 rp(7 with rp3) +2 pots if the fight is longer he will ofc be able to use more stuff like jacinas additional pots etc but to compare it to moc we'll limit it to 1 item use due to usetimer
a total of 17-20 uis
resulting in 191*110%*3 =630*17 = 10710, 11k; 630*20=12600

there are lots of other factors like targets resists etc so this doesn't really show anything but it gives u a clue about how strong this ability actually is

 

[Septina]

For all i care they could nerf the warlocks so they do negative damage! :worthy:

 

[Mas]

well moc is 30 seconds
cap castime for lifedrains ~1 sec
moclifedrains are 75%*179 = 134;*3 +10% toa; 443*29 --> 12847, 13k
warlock:
lets assume: 7 casts from 1 manabar, +4 tartaros +4 rp(7 with rp3) +2 pots if the fight is longer he will ofc be able to use more stuff like jacinas additional pots etc but to compare it to moc we'll limit it to 1 item use due to usetimer
a total of 17-20 uis
resulting in 191*110%*3 =630*17 = 10710, 11k; 630*20=12600

there are lots of other factors like targets resists etc so this doesn't really show anything but it gives u a clue about how strong this ability actually is

You cant spam /use arti between casts theres a 80 sec use period so you cant /use2 tartaro then jacina then pot etc etc.

And also that is our main cast not an RA which is used for certain situations that is our everyday cast which is reduced. Moc users are gimped dmg for a small time then are back to normal casts of 1.5 sec at low pow usage. Whereas a warlock after the burst is used no power for anything not even 4sec casts, if the UI casts are nerfed so much something has to be done over the base casting, 4 secs hardcoded for base spells is not good enough for rvr.

 

[Celestino]

thats why i didn't include jacinas i just said its a possibility for longer fights so he has another 4-5 casts UIs later during a fight

so lets face reality mr mas:
In pretty much every fight you won't need 29 casts to kill anyone; most ppl will be dead after the 4th or 5th and u get those for free, ANYTIME, instead of having to pop moc setting a reuse timer

We all know that warlocks lose over time to other casters thats nothing new but the problem we're talking about is not warlocks grpability or overall damage but that fact that every single warlock has perma moc against a small number of attackers.
His first 7 casts + 2 chambers are enough to kill 3 ppl attacking him, even from stealth beeing in perma melee. Any other caster would have to use an 30 pt RA with a reuse timer if he wants to have any chance of surviving

And if he starts using timer based abilities, he can take on even more

 

[Corran]

You cant spam /use arti between casts theres a 80 sec use period so you cant /use2 tartaro then jacina then pot etc etc.

And also that is our main cast not an RA which is used for certain situations that is our everyday cast which is reduced. Moc users are gimped dmg for a small time then are back to normal casts of 1.5 sec at low pow usage. Whereas a warlock after the burst is used no power for anything not even 4sec casts, if the UI casts are nerfed so much something has to be done over the base casting, 4 secs hardcoded for base spells is not good enough for rvr.

Artifact+ pots are on different timer... so cast cast, pot, cast cast cast cast cast cast cast tarts cast cast cast cast pot cast cast etc....

If you want uninteruptable+ chambered insta's then you have to suffer somewhere. And that is in the cast speed. The amount of times i been put out a fight on my theurg with inability to cast with no moc would mean a warlock can do more then i can..

Tanks on me, i got to run. WL stands and uninteruptable lifetaps someone.

Caster on me i got to run, or qc if it up. Warlock just uninteruptable lifetap or fires a chamber, leaving the caster interupted from that point on.

Just some examples of advantages warlocks have at the cost of cast time. Not needing to wait on a 10minute timer to moc, not needing to wait on a 30seconds timer to QC, not needing to spend 30 RA points to be able to cast 'effectively' when attacked.

 

[Tilda]

well moc is 30 seconds
cap castime for lifedrains ~1 sec
moclifedrains are 75%*179 = 134;*3 +10% toa; 443*29 --> 12847, 13k
warlock:
lets assume: 7 casts from 1 manabar, +4 tartaros +4 rp(7 with rp3) +2 pots if the fight is longer he will ofc be able to use more stuff like jacinas additional pots etc but to compare it to moc we'll limit it to 1 item use due to usetimer
a total of 17-20 uis
resulting in 191*110%*3 =630*17 = 10710, 11k; 630*20=12600

there are lots of other factors like targets resists etc so this doesn't really show anything but it gives u a clue about how strong this ability actually is

Its funny how you round the (what i presume is sorc damage) up to 13k
but using the same logic we can round warlocks up to 13k.
Thus we conclude that even afer the nerf, the warlock is still more OPed than a sorc, as AFTER insta-killing someone by chamber dumping, they can still do the same 13k damage.
In addition, a sorc needs 30 realm points to get that, while a warlock just specs for it.

 

[Celestino]

As I said, this thought and flawed calculations are not for concluding anything but for receiving an impression of how strong warlocks really are atm even after the first nerf
And don't forget the warlock in my example also spent 15-30 pts for rp2-3

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Yes a class with insta nearsight and unbreakable snare is truly crap now they can't stand in the middle of a zerg and instakill everything with 1 cast.

Go learn to play your class, then come whine imo!

A warlock is a caster with obscene amounts of utility, start using it for the utility instead of the sick damage and the nerf makes no difference.

You should learn how warlocks work before whining yourself, all this crap about instas is bollocks. Only 1 chamber is an insta, the rest are either on timers, have 4 second cast times, or involve pushing two buttons - one after another, compare that to lets say a sorc, insta debuff for interupts, bolt range mezz, then put ya finger on one button to lifetap the crap out of anyone while the pet smacks the shit out fo them too. Or the stun, nuke nuke nuke ya dead chanters, 2 buttons there.

Our UI isnt a UI at all, we can still be mezzed unlike MoC, one on one instawin button.

Then theres the heavy casters like RMs and wizzies, who can bolt you for 800+ each hit damage (my record so far was 1286 through my 26% heat resist!) with a cast time of 1.4 seconds with full dex and cast speed, while spamming debuffs to interupt. A warlock gets off 1 chamber during the time it takes one caster to inflict 1-2000 damage, and they can moc to stop interupts.

Only 3 chamber cocks get the nearsight, and we are rare, and as it is such a low level, we dont tend to use it, as more often its resisted.

Extened range again really only comes into its own on 3 chamber, we sacrifice damage output for utility.

As it stands, I will agree a 2 chamber warlock is nasty, but compared to other casters, they are even as they stand now, yes tey can take down a tank, then again so can a well played bainshee or vampiir, why warlocks are so picked on is beyond me.

 

[Mas]

Heh dunno how high hex you are suggesting with so many casts then tart etc, but i get 6 UI's, fully toad etc etc after 6 casts i have 6% power left may get 2 more off with tartaro or if jacina energy pops. The nerf has been there fromthe beginning, high power costs for uniteruptable add that to dmg nerfs, warlocks need high hex for pboae dmg and lifetap. I use fixed casts which is 3rd uniteruptable cast which is due the 30% dmg nerf.

So i can respec hex to a higher WC line which gives me a lower dmg pbaoe and LT not to mention heal and pom, but less dmg reduction and more casts of uniteruptable, or heck i can go 47 WC and 24 hex and have 0 dmg reduction on lvl 24 LT. lvl 19 dot, lvl 25 NS, lvl 25 pboae with no pom or spreadheal. The lines are fine imo and only need alterations to the chambers and uniteruptable but not moc style penalties forcing people to go high specced in a gimp line. The hex line is the dmg and utility line the line LT pow heal Snare Dot Pboae come from which is all spec and not base spells, its fine having chambers above your head but pointless for a char if they are filled with lvl 20 spells cause id need 20 casts of lvl 20 LT to kill anyone.

Post your specs so we can analyze them post nerf specs too....see how many gimp specs we see....

 

[Celestino]

Amazing, they got a blind and deaf into their eyes and ears program !

you are aware that instant refers to instant cast ? a cast that fires without castime?

Also debuffs only interrupt on resists so u can hardly rely on them

Bolt spells do suffer from absorb and have a 20 sec reuse timer, albs having 2 extra relics gives their bolts quite some power, but warlocks having 3 relics aren't losing to them.
A warlock can cast 1 UI while casting the chamber so effectivly u will have 1 base dd and 2 spec lifetabs while a wiz is casting 1 bolt and can never be interrupted doing it

also any warlock speccing 10/25/39 in hexing will receive nearsight, 2 chamber warlocks (unlike ur saying) do have red nearsight, 3 chamber warlocks do have red nearsight even 4 chamber warlocks do have yellow nearsight
highest non warlock nearsight level is 41, so i can't really see a difference in resistrates here, a small bit of mofocus will put the lvl 39 spell to effective 48, enough imho ...

2 chamber locks do have a 2000 range primer which is still quite an advantage compared to 1500 standard range

I've not played a moc class in NF but moc giving cc immunity is somewhat new to me, can anyone confirm this or is it just another false argument like the rest of ur post ?

 

[Tilda]

moc dosnt give cc immunity.

 

[xxManiacxx]

Now goa

MMP WRONG!

Now MYTHIC