1.61 stat cap changes

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Pin
And anything that gives a person more incentive to actually want to persevere with RvR?

Because perhaps RA's, and in an assassin's case high poisons/stealth with less spec point investment isn't already an incentive??
There is, or should be, a limit to how much better an RR7 is than an RR4. (for example)

Back on-topic...
Right, so buffbots are now even more powerful, and we've all got to spend another 10plat on our SC suits to get the best out of it.

Why do Mythic just do these things that no-one's asked for? Arrgh...
Anyhow, may not change the game much, if it's a small cap raise per realm RANK rather than level as said in the above quote...

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.LandShark

Back on-topic...
Right, so buffbots are now even more powerful, and we've all got to spend another 10plat on our SC suits to get the best out of it.

Actually... As I posted in the other thread (RvR section), this could reduce the effectiveness of buffbots by giving everyone the ability to increase their stats from items, thus narrowing the gap. But that depends on the answer to Q8 that Arindra pasted.

And really, you'd have to be a complete dick to think you have to redo your whole SC template due to caps raising. Think about it.

Originally posted by old.LandShark

Why do Mythic just do these things that no-one's asked for? Arrgh...

Actually, this attempts to address numerous problems that people have been asking for fixes for. Just use a bit of logic and common sense in thinking about what it changes rather than just jumping to stupid conclusions like "waaaa, buffbots just got boosted!!11" and "I just spent 25plat on my MP SC suit and it's completely worthless now " and so on.

 

[Khalen]

Btw heared they gonna change +power into %power...

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.LandShark
Because perhaps RA's, and in an assassin's case high poisons/stealth with less spec point investment isn't already an incentive??

Okay, I'll take that as a completely ignorant VN view on how poison and stealth works and attempt to enlighten you...


Your argument: 'Envenom and Stealth can be raised by increasing Realm Rank, and by this has exactly the same effect as by spending specialisation points in the two lines, this is unfair!'

My counter-argument: 'Envenom gives absolutely zero benefit for being specialised beyond 50. There are no new poisons, there is no increase in effects of the existing poisons. Weapon specialisation above 50 gives higher damage, increases hit-rate, etc, Spell-line specialisation above 50 again gives more damage for your granted spells, etc. Specialising Stealth beyond 50 has no real benefit. The only thing 51+ Stealth grants you is increased chance of sneaking past level 51+ MOBs, which is not a worthwhile benefit.'



(Anyways, you have a Minstrel, so are benefitting from this huge advantage that RR increasing Stealth gives you)

 

[old.LandShark]

Do you intentionally come across as a patronising git? ;p
Let me see now. 50enhance buffbot buffs are currently 'nerfed' by the current caps. Ergo higher caps = more mileage from highest level buffs. Don't tell me that it closes the gap - if Johnny Nobuffs can get another 20 con from his items, so can Billy Buffleet.
As for my being a complete dick... erm. Dex is next to useless to me but I put it into my SC suit because I couldn't take my str (slash damage/weapskill) or con(hits) or charisma (DD damage) any higher. Well, now I can. If I want to benefit from these raised caps (heaven forbid I pass up my incentive to continue RvRing!) then I quite evidently need to re-make parts of, at least, my SC suit. I'm a complete dick for thinking this why, precisely?

As for the last comment.... well, I find it hard to know what to say, you've never come across as a flaming tosspot before Pin but...
It's not a stupid conclusion; see above. I don't give a fuck either way because i HAVE a buffbot, it's lvl44 and I guess I'll level it to 50 if higher buffs become more useful. And I'm sorry, it's not open to debate whether or not Mythic promise X + Y and then deliver Q + Z. Housing? Level 20 alts for people with existing 50s? Oh! Stat cap changes! Just what I've always wanted...

 

[Jiggs]

NO!!!!!!!!!

buffbots are MORE essential now, sheesh no one freaking listens to me

all your level 35 spec enhance clerics wont take you over that cap (i know i teseted it)

you need the spec red buffs and high enhance to max the base buffs...

so basically its _more_ incentive to spec higher enhance or have a buffbot which imo sucks big time...

but yes there will be an even playing field at like RR5 where everyone should have 300 in their main stats

but... thats only if you got them bots

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.LandShark

There is, or should be, a limit to how much better an RR7 is than an RR4. (for example)

And there still will be a limit, just set at a different level.

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Pin
Okay, I'll take that as a completely ignorant VN view on how poison and stealth works and attempt to enlighten you...


Your argument: 'Envenom and Stealth can be raised by increasing Realm Rank, and by this has exactly the same effect as by spending specialisation points in the two lines, this is unfair!'

Someone needs to pay more attention. Hint: it's you.
Where did I say it was unfair? I said that the above, plus increased access to realm abilities, was your incentive to RvR.

My counter-argument: 'Envenom gives absolutely zero benefit for being specialised beyond 50. There are no new poisons, there is no increase in effects of the existing poisons. Weapon specialisation above 50 gives higher damage, increases hit-rate, etc, Spell-line specialisation above 50 again gives more damage for your granted spells, etc. Specialising Stealth beyond 50 has no real benefit. The only thing 51+ Stealth grants you is increased chance of sneaking past level 51+ MOBs, which is not a worthwhile benefit.'

(Anyways, you have a Minstrel, so are benefitting from this huge advantage that RR increasing Stealth gives you)

I'm fully aware of this. I don't see how on earth it's relevant.
As for my minstrel benefitting - well. Maybe, but it's hardly an issue given that: my cap raises 4 points for every extra point of instruments I get. I have never, EVER hit my cap on a player above grey con in RvR. As for slash and stealth - well, yes. Of course I also benefit - I never claimed that I personally had no incentive to RvR, did I? Sorry, I really can't see what you're arguing here.

Pin, you're what, RR7? Therefore, assuming you wanted lifebane and 50stealth, you would only need to have a base envenom and stealth of 33. The difference between 33 in two speclines and 36 in two speclines is 210 points. In the process of having fun (RvRing up to the point of getting RR7) you got an extra 210 specpoints. That's an advantage, I can only assume? Do clue my poor ignorant VN-board-poster self in if 210 spec points isn't an advantage.... Not to mention the RA points.

Can you please summarise for me what you're actually trying to convince my stupid (ignorant, illogical, automatically-whinging, uneducated and generally inferior and deficient, apparently) self of?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.LandShark
Do you intentionally come across as a patronising git? ;p

Sorry, I'm in a mood this morning...

Originally posted by old.LandShark
Let me see now. 50enhance buffbot buffs are currently 'nerfed' by the current caps. Ergo higher caps = more mileage from highest level buffs. Don't tell me that it closes the gap - if Johnny Nobuffs can get another 20 con from his items, so can Billy Buffleet.

Currently there are caps in the game, whereby over 300 stat does nothing for you... So, lets take the example I put in the RvR thread.

Currently:
RR5 Scout unbuffed has 200 Dex
RR5 Scout buffed has 325 Dex which is capped at 300 for bow damage effectiveness
Buffed Scout has 100 Dex advantage.

1.61:
RR5 Scout unbuffed has 250 Dex
RR5 Scout buffed has 450 Dex which is capped at 300 for bow damage effectiveness
Buffed Scout has 50 Dex advantage.

Gap is closed, buffs less effective.


But as I said, it depends on how Q8 is resolved.


Then there are stats like Charisma for Minstrels and Piety for Clerics which cannot be buffed. These all get boosts now. There are lots of good things in changing the caps.

Originally posted by old.LandShark
As for my being a complete dick... erm. Dex is next to useless to me but I put it into my SC suit because I couldn't take my str (slash damage/weapskill) or con(hits) or charisma (DD damage) any higher. Well, now I can. If I want to benefit from these raised caps (heaven forbid I pass up my incentive to continue RvRing!) then I quite evidently need to re-make parts of, at least, my SC suit. I'm a complete dick for thinking this why, precisely?

Sorry, I'll try to calm down (had a bad drive to work this morning... need coffee). Mostly I wasn't calling you a dick. It was after reading the VN dev board flame thread and such a lot of drivel in there....

Okay, so you didn't need to cap Dex, but you did anyway. Now with caps changed you would like to have higher Str, or Con, or Charisma. So basically you can swap 1 gem which had +Dex on for 1 gem which has one of the others, and therefore you just spent ~200g on a new pair of gloves or whatever. Or you could get a new piece of dropped jewelry and swap that over.


Personally I never liked the fact that basically any character out there could cap out everything. Makes a lot of things pointless. And I would rather there was something more to the end game than just being capped out, character completed, nothing more to do here, roll on another game.

Originally posted by old.LandShark

As for the last comment.... well, I find it hard to know what to say, you've never come across as a flaming tosspot before Pin but...
It's not a stupid conclusion; see above. I don't give a fuck either way because i HAVE a buffbot, it's lvl44 and I guess I'll level it to 50 if higher buffs become more useful. And I'm sorry, it's not open to debate whether or not Mythic promise X + Y and then deliver Q + Z. Housing? Level 20 alts for people with existing 50s? Oh! Stat cap changes! Just what I've always wanted...

Again I apologise.


But I'll go through it again, If the caps at 300 do not change, then there is even less point levelling a buffbot up high. Yes you'll see your Str/Dex go right up to 500 (or whatever), but it doesn't actually do anything (at least until they finish poking Q8 with a stick).

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.LandShark
Pin, you're what, RR7? Therefore, assuming you wanted lifebane and 50stealth, you would only need to have a base envenom and stealth of 33. The difference between 33 in two speclines and 36 in two speclines is 210 points. In the process of having fun (RvRing up to the point of getting RR7) you got an extra 210 specpoints. That's an advantage, I can only assume? Do clue my poor ignorant VN-board-poster self in if 210 spec points isn't an advantage.... Not to mention the RA points.

Okay, RR8, but same point...

Yes it's an advantage. It's one that I would never have got without being given access to a skill respec. Before respeccing I had 37 stealth and 36 envenom, which left me over-capped with all those extra specpoints spent on something that was useless. Basically I had 313 spent specpoints which were giving me absolutely nothing for the last 6 months. It's only being given access to a respec that gave those points back (and if I ding up to RR10 I'll need another respec to make use of the points again).

 

[old.LandShark]

I'm also in a bad mood, so I apologise for overreacting =)
The British government considers me in full-time education when I ask for unemployment benefit, but NOT in education when it comes to asking for National Health Service benefits. GG. Anyhow...

Thinking about it - this closes the gap as you say for classes whose primary stat is both base and spec buffable. The reason I couldn't see any closing of gaps is because as a minstrel it is currently impossible for me to get my str and dex to 300. So basically, guilty as charged of not thinking about it sufficiently.
Raised caps could still help me get my str (I'm slash, think i mentioned that) to the effective cap.
I rambled on for another half-page but, well, <snip> since it's pure speculation while we don't have any hard info on the cap changes.
:touch: Mythic

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Pin
Okay, RR8, but same point...

Yes it's an advantage. It's one that I would never have got without being given access to a skill respec. Before respeccing I had 37 stealth and 36 envenom, which left me over-capped with all those extra specpoints spent on something that was useless. Basically I had 313 spent specpoints which were giving me absolutely nothing for the last 6 months. It's only being given access to a respec that gave those points back (and if I ding up to RR10 I'll need another respec to make use of the points again).

Personally, I would argue that the difference between becoming overcapped (e.g. over 50 envenom) by your RR and wasting specpoints for a period of time, and speccing in advance such that you don't get to your 50env/stealth 'caps' until R6, is extremely minimal. Either you waste effectiveness (read: points) for a few months AFTER hitting an RR or you lose effectiveness as you work towards the target RR.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.LandShark
And I'm sorry, it's not open to debate whether or not Mythic promise X + Y and then deliver Q + Z. Housing? Level 20 alts for people with existing 50s? Oh! Stat cap changes! Just what I've always wanted...

Actually they said in a grab bag a couple of weeks ago that stats caps were being looked at (actual question was on being over-capped and being hit with a debuff).


Then we can look at complaints from Minstrels, Clerics, Reavers and Paladins not being able to increase their primary casting stat, thereby being left with piss-poor power pools and/or damage.

There are Trolls who cry about have 350 Str, but crap Dex/Qui. Well, they can now increase their Dex/Qui (but now they are crying that it is possible for them to get even more useless 500 Str, rather than looking at what they could gain).




Anyway, most things depend on how the patch evolves. At the moment it looks like there will be diminished returns on stats increased above their current caps (so even if you have +150 Cha, it would only work more like +100 Cha would in the current scheme - i.e. you trade 75 points of something for 25 points of something else - this would be GOOD in my opinion as it would mean people have to make choices).


Okay, I'll stop posting and go have lunch. Might be more friendly this afternoon

 

[old.Ramas]

Btw heared they gonna change +power into %power

I've never seen any official comment to that effect.

TL's keep asking for it- and everyone in the game recognises that it would be "a good thing".

So it probably won't happen.

On the subject of buff-bots....

In 1.61A form...

New caps nerfs the effect of buff bots on your primary stat, espiecially if your race has a high primary stat base, and only in cases where buffs can affect your prime stat. (So no buff bot change for non-list casters)

It does so by reducing the difference in practical effect of item capped buffed stats and item capped unbuffed stats.

But there are other cases....

Classes who consider stats other than their primary to be important, (caster dex, cleric con etc etc) will get bigger benefit from buffs in those stats.

Diminishing returns can also kick in and change this around.

So all in all, as it stands I'd say it's pretty much buff bot neutral.

Increasing the 300 cap (which I suspect will happen, if only for the benefit of Trolls STR stat) would of course change this all around again.

 

[old.Ramas]

i.e. you trade 75 points of something for 25 points of something else - this would be GOOD in my opinion as it would mean people have to make choices).

And this is the key point.

Stat caps should always have been higher than what a well balanced character would aim for.

SC templating should not be about trying to cap everything on the cookie cutter wish list - it should be about deciding to trade off STR vs CON or INT vs DEX within the constraints of your armour's capacity.

Higher stat caps with no higher +stat capacity on items is the way to acheieve that.

Now what they need to do is make magic resists from items capped at 150% total across all 6 resistances - and then they can increase the invidual cap on each resistance to about 40%.

I sense even more demand for master-piece armour.

 

[old.LandShark]

Seems fairly broken atm..
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=47027314&replies=6

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
Now what they need to do is make magic resists from items capped at 150% total across all 6 resistances - and then they can increase the invidual cap on each resistance to about 40%.

Very hard to sort that one out though...

e.g. I add the following to my gear:

30% Body
30% Slash
30% Heat
30% Energy
30% Thrust

Total is at cap, okay...

Now I find an item which I want to use which has +20% Cold. Now, if I equip this what happens? Only thing to do would be to scale everything down by 170/150, thus by adding a +Cold, I lose out on resistances in all the other areas. Not desirable, which makes the item less desirable than it otherwise would be (which is the opposite of what Mythic are trying to acheive).

 

[old.Ramas]

Yesterday we released a patch note (version 1.61a), which features a change to the way that stat caps work. The explanation was too vague to be useful for testing and information, so here's a more thorough explanation. I'm sorry for the confusion this has caused, hopefully this more fully fleshed-out description will answer many of your questions and concerns.



First and foremost, this feature would best be called "overcapping" instead of "stat cap raise". The stat caps essentially remain the same, but now you can go over them, with extremely diminished returns the farther over the old cap you go.

Please note that, as with all Pendragon features, this overcapping system may change significantly during the testing process. We'll keep you all up to date via patch notes when this changes.

Here are some new definitions:

Optimal Stat Level: This is the old stat cap number. With overcapping, you can now go "above" this optimal level, with diminishing returns. For example, if your strength cap in 1.60 was 300, the optimal stat level for your strength is 300, but now you'll be able to take your strength above 300.

Diminishing Returns: Taking your stats above the Optimal Stat Level provides diminishing returns. Your stat increases provide a much lesser effect on your character. In the previous example, where a 300 strength is the optimal stat level, you can take your strength up to 350 or higher, but with extremely diminished damage and encumbrance gains.

Overcapping: When you raise your stats past the Optimal Stat Level, gaining diminishing returns from the increase. In our example, if your optimal strength is 300, if you buff your strength up to 350, then your strength is considered "overcapped".


Here are the new formulas for how overcapping works:

Bonus stats from items now cap at (character level)*1.5 + (realm level)*5

Baseline buffs now have a cap of (character level) + (realm level/2)

Spec buffs now have a cap of (character level)*1.5 + (realm level/2)

Hitpoint cap changes: the new hitpoint cap from items is (character level)*4 + (realm level)*2

Power cap changes: the new power cap is (character level)/2 + (realm level)/2

The diminished returns of going over your optimal stat level: If bonus stats from items go over (character level)*1.5, every 25 stat points provide a stat bonus.

Why are we doing this? Currently, if someone has all (or some) of their stats at the cap, they have no reason to use any new equipment that they find. For example your Strength and Dex are both at cap, and you find a ring that is +30 Str and +30 Dex. Why would you use this ring? It is a great ring with great stats, but because yours are already capped, it is useless to you. With Overcapping, you could and would use this ring to take your stats above the Optimal Stat Level. This gives more flexibility for how you use stats on your character, and gives a purpose for all of the great items that you are finding out there.

Because of the way that Overcapping is being implemented, your special Spellcrafted armor is NOT less effective than it was in the past. You are STILL at your Optimal Stat Level, and are getting the most bang for your buck out of your armor. If you find jewelry or armor pieces that have better stats and can take you over the old cap, now you can USE them.

On the other hand, if you want to specialize in one or two stats, you can setup your Spellcraft template to overcap those stats. You could technically take your Strength to 400 for example, but the benefits you gain from taking it that far above your Optimal Stat Level are minimal and the amount of stat points that you would have to give up elsewhere (like in Constitution), would make this an unwise choice for most people. While you might hit a little harder (due to diminishing returns), you would have MANY less hitpoints (because the Constitution you are giving up is below the Optimal Stat Level and therefore giving you much more benefit).

Also, there are several bugs with the system as implemented that we are fixing right now, and we'll get that fixed version up to Pendragon as soon as we can - probably later today.

I think this tells us.....

There is no longer a hard cap at 300 stat.

Instead ever dimishing returns goes on out as far you could possibly raise any stat. (Which of course begs the question - how do returns diminish...)

Item/buff caps now being....

Bonus stats from items now cap at (character level)*1.5 + (realm level)*5

Baseline buffs now have a cap of (character level) + (realm level/2)

Spec buffs now have a cap of (character level)*1.5 + (realm level/2)

Hitpoint cap changes: the new hitpoint cap from items is (character level)*4 + (realm level)*2

Power cap changes: the new power cap is (character level)/2 + (realm level)/2


Why Sanya has to fill so much of my life with so many unnecessary words other than the ones I've repeated - I have no idea.


Interesting to see that the buff cap increase is so small. Meaning that high level enhance spec and +enhance items remain pointless. But understandable given the anti-buffbot feeling.

Also I note the amusing change to the power cap.

Now if I reach realm rank 10, and cap +power I can *almost* cast 2 extra minor heals (the ones that heal for 159 HP and cost me 17 power).

Lucky I can't *actually* quite manage 2 extra minor heals, because that would be overpowered. Obviously.

 

[old.shotgunstow]

Originally posted by old.Outlaw
R U serious?

I suggest u return to you're communist country kindergarten_boy

Originally posted by gunZ-
so harsh

u deserve to die i swear

And he only says it because he is almost rr10 himself

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.Ramas
Why Sanya has to fill so much of my life with so many unnecessary words other than the ones I've repeated - I have no idea.

Actually, it was Matt Firor

Originally posted by old.Ramas
Now if I reach realm rank 10, and cap +power I can *almost* cast 2 extra minor heals (the ones that heal for 159 HP and cost me 17 power).

Lucky I can't *actually* quite manage 2 extra minor heals, because that would be overpowered. Obviously.

and R10L0 is 45 extra power, so almost 3 extra minor heals... So yeah, I think that will make you overpowered!

 

[Jiggs]

basically they just added more levels after 50

'cept they found an intresting twist on the xp grind

now its a rp grind

 

[old.Ramas]

Personally I doubt this is adding even nearly as much extra advantage to RRanks as RAs and +skills already do.

You still can't fit any more than 32 imbue points+overcharge on your masterpiece suit.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
basically they just added more levels after 50

'cept they found an intresting twist on the xp grind

now its a rp grind

No, there's been those levels ever since they put in realm ranks a year ago. There's been an 'RP grind' since RPs existed.

All they changed was that you can now tweak your character stats VERY slightly once you have got a few realm levels under your belt.


And what differences? Well, as the post on The Herald indicates, get a million RPs (hit RR6), and you will be able to get some benefit from wearing items with 250 more strength than you could before. However, this would give you only 10 points more strength for the purpose of weaponskill than it does now. And in order to get that 10 more points you would have to drop 250 points off something else - which would work out to 100% off resists, or 75 off dex/qui and 50 off con.

No one is really going to make any of these sacrifices. The only difference from this would be for characters who can easily cap everything out on their Sc suits. They can now add more stuff over the old caps for free (don't have to drop anything else).

Okay, so now you can add another 100 hit points to your gear at RR6. Much of a difference?

 

[Jiggs]

new dex cap for me will be 587

 

[Jiggs]

i dont like the fact that i carefully made my char's stats so i would hit 287dex

now any friar can have that easy...

takes a little away form the uniqueness of each char, but i guess for those that say added 10empathy or something its a godsend

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
new dex cap for me will be 587

amazing. care to break that number down? Sig says R5L6.. but anyways... I'll take a rough guess of where you have stats.

60 + 10 start?
75 from items to current cap
230 from items to new RR cap
50 from base buff to current cap
23 from base buff to new RR cap
75 from spec buff to current cap
23 from spec buff to new RR cap
Aug Dex 3?

Gives total of 564 - close enough.

But what do you really have?

Well, that 230 from extra items is only actually worth 9. Unless you have Mastery of the Arcane, then your base buff will only add 12 and spec buff will only add 18, so really you only have 327.

Sure, drool at the part of the screen that could say 564, and ignore the fact that you really only have 327 effective.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs
i dont like the fact that i carefully made my char's stats so i would hit 287dex

now any friar can have that easy...

takes a little away form the uniqueness of each char, but i guess for those that say added 10empathy or something its a godsend

Okay, I guess that's 15 at start and aug dex 2.

Anyways, not all Friars can have the same stat. If they didn't put the extra 5 in at creation and they want to make up 5 points from over-capping items they have to actually add 125 more Dex in items, which would be kinda silly for 5 points of gain.

 

[Jiggs]

+15 at creation

and no i'm not 5L6

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Jiggs

and no i'm not 5L6

Well, that's obvious... it just the number on your sig link. doesn't matter what RR you are though. Point remains that it's not really 587 Dex.

 

[jox]

...

Everything that makes the powerful more powerful and the weak weaker is great...I am a big fan of capitalism...in this case at least.