Your views; International Communities Treatement of Iran and it's Nuclear Program

Darksword

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Ok just before we start (if this ever kicks off) just a few things; i want to know what your opinions and debates are on this matter, i mean in international politics it's pretty big right now. So NO personal attacks on anyone, i dont care how gay or retarded someone elses view is unless you can back up your opinion with reason and not petty insults.

Some things to think about firstly;

Iran started its nuclear program in the 1950's with help from the United States under the rule of the Shah (King of Iran). After the Islamic Revolution in 1979 the nuclear program was temporarliy disbanded then restarted without help from the united states. Until the revolution the International Community fully recognised Irans need for nuclear energy to progress both economically and scientificly. It is undeniable that in this day and age, nuclear technology greatly benefits a nation.

In the first gulf war (Iraq vs Iran 1980-88) Iraq received direct support from the US in terms of weapons, chemical weapons, economic aid, intelligence nad international support. All this later aided Saddam who even used chemical weapons on his own people - Iran does not trust the US.

Since the Islamic Revolution of Iran the international community (largely the US) has not trusted Iran, it has seen it as a rising threat. In 1979 there was a siege on the US embassy in Iran, which further antagonised the situation.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - The President of Iran - Is a critic of the US and in particular the Bush administration. He is seen as a extremist in his views, claiming that the holocaust was a myth made up by the west and later being forced to retract that statement by the supreme leader of Iran - the Ayatollah Khamenei, and for calling for Israel to be whipped off map. He is largely seen as a threat to the region and international politics.

Following the Nuclear Enrichment Program, the UN has sought sanctions against Iran for not "volunatirly" suspending its enrichment program. This resulted in Resolution 1737 and more recently 1747.
- 1737 Basically banning the sale of specific nuclear materials and technology to the Islamic Republic of Iran
- 1747 A freezing of assets for those individuals and companies that have supplied Iran with nuclear material adn technology as well as imposing further sanctions on trade with iran. - Iran immediatly dismissed the sanctions and expressed it's concerns that no international sanctions or political pressure will force it to suspend it's legal right to nuclear enrichment. They further expressed their concern in their investment into the program, many years and many billions of (US$) dollars have been invested.

Immediate threat in the middle east - Iran has expressed its concern in the middle east with many nations there having nuclear weapons - most notably Israel but also India, Pakistan and North Korea all have nuclear weapons in the region. Iran further argues and questions why Israel which receives both direct and indirect aid from the US should have nuclear weapons in the region. Israel claims it is purely for self preservation and a nuclear deterant.

International Atomic Energy Agency(IAEA) - International organisation which conducts inspection of nuclear enrichment programs. After the revolution, Iran informed the IAEA of its plans to restart nuclear enrichment and the IAEA even planned to provide it with support in forms of technology and information. However, US pressure lead to them terminating this program.

Later, 2000, as it was revealed that Iran had 2 unknown nuclear enrichment sites, the IAEI demanded rights to investigate. Iran was found to be awkward with this, although they did later allow for an inspection. Following it's 2003 inspection the IAEI stated that Iran had failed to meet it's obligations under it's safeguard agreement in terms of reporting it's nuclear material and it's processing.

Under close IAEI monitoring, Iran is unable to extract the plutonium it produces (which is less than 1kg a year and would take several years to develop a single atomic bomb) while claiming the program is for purely economical and energy reasons and all waste is closely monitored.

There are other points to observe and think about, and i know that alot of what i've written here tends to be one sided but i've tried to cover all arguments and points. I'll add more later, but essentially what are your views;

Should Iran be allowed nuclear energy?
Is the threat of Nuclear Weapons real? ( - Iraq war, Iran being refered to as a member of the "Axis of evil")
Is it a case that extremists should not be allowed to rule? (in which case why is a deep south texan allowed to rule?)
Or isit simply America imposing it's will on the international community and hindering economic and technological progress - is the world becoming a rich mens club and you're only allowed to join if x and y say so?
 

Overdriven

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Way too much reading involved for a forum post, especially in OT.
 

Azurus

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I'll reply to this on Sunday atm my main priority is getting drunk. :(
 

Case

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Or isit simply America imposing it's will on the international community and hindering economic and technological progress - is the world becoming a rich mens club and you're only allowed to join if x and y say so?
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that one
 

Calaen

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Strange situation, I dont believe people that make it known that they want the west wiped off the face of the earth should be allowed to develop this kind of weaponry.

If it was as simple of people building power plants to help the country then fine, but I doubt that shit for brains Iranian has anything other than killing off the west on his mind.
 

prodical

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Or isit simply America imposing it's will on the international community and hindering economic and technological progress - is the world becoming a rich mens club and you're only allowed to join if x and y say so?
__________________

that one



i have to agree with calann. they arnt stopping technological progrees, they are preventing a dictator getting his hands on the most powerful weapon known to exist in modern times. they are an economic juggernaught and can cripple the world of they felt like it but they are far more helpful to us all than i think you realise. really i dont think anyone cares about iran in the general public aslong as its dosent effect our day to day lives. however if this changes, they will come out the worse off i think.
 

Raven

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no country that is so openly anti west should be allowed to develop nukes, no matter how "civilised" they try to appear in the media. no the best solution is to turn the entire area to glass the second they step out of line.
 

DocWolfe

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iran's whole involvement and the way they handled the recent capture of the british soldiers show how immature they are as a nation.
 

ilaya

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as a general rule i'd say:

your ruler has a tashe = no nukes
your ruler eats a giant rabbit = no nukes either
 

Tilda

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Small factual correction, I dont believe he actually denied the holocaust, however, Iran did host a seminar that discussed the holocaust and whether it happened or had been [FONT=&quot]exaggerated[/FONT] by the west.
 

DocWolfe

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Didn't I read somewhere that Jews in Iran have to wear badges similar to those the Nazi forced Jews to wear in the second world war?
 

old.Tohtori

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Well, if one country can nuke stuff, others should too. Simple as that really.

Screw this world police stuff.

If they nuke the states, fine, as long as those nukes stay away from here and iceland and london(ccp servers are there, no eve breaks for nukes thank you).

Yes, i don't give a f*ck, neither do the US about the rest of us.

EDIT: all this axis of evil stuff is propaganda anyway, quite possible saddam was innocent too, just a puppet of sorts. Who knows, history is not written by the dudes who bite it.
 

Levin

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It's quite possible that the Iranian anti-west feelings come from the fact that west is trying to impose what is viewed as unfair laws upon them. Likewise, anti-west feelings in Iran can take extreme forms which further infects west's feelings towards Iran. A bad circle if there ever was any.

It's fine to forbid anyone to use nuclear technology - but then you should clean your own backyard first. If US, Israel, UK, France, India, Pakistan and everyone else who wields nukes would say "okay, we are going to start removing our own nukes, but don't you start making them in the meantime!" - these nations would have a morally firmer ground to stand on making these demands on others.

The issue gets more complicated though, as it's not even certain Iran wants nukes. They claim they just want nuclear power for electricity. But their distrust towards west and their pride makes it hard for them to allow inspections in their own country, which leads to west's conclusion that they must be up to something.

To heal this situation, I believe it will take some great leadership both ...

...from the West, i.e. someone that can offer Iran a helping hand with their civilian nuclear plant development, imply an intention of disarmament of the vast nuclear arsenals already in place in their own countries, and possibly even allowing Iranian inspections of their own disarmament progress somewhere down the line as a sign of equality....

...and Iran. Someone who would allow UN inspections of nuclear plants and who would work to open the country to better communications, understanding, and less resentment of the west. Someone who'd make a clear statement that they want to take some responsibility not only for their own country but for the stability of the world.
 

Darksword

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i have to agree with calann. they arnt stopping technological progrees, they are preventing a dictator getting his hands on the most powerful weapon known to exist in modern times. they are an economic juggernaught and can cripple the world of they felt like it but they are far more helpful to us all than i think you realise. really i dont think anyone cares about iran in the general public aslong as its dosent effect our day to day lives. however if this changes, they will come out the worse off i think.

just to clear this point; Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not a dictator, he was voted into power just as Blair was and Bush wasn't....

In stopping technological progress; nuclear technology has been aquired by the most succesful nations in the world; The US, China, France, UK, India and Russia, other nations who have nuclear technology have alot of influence and are seen as very important; namely Israeli scientists and technology being at hte forefront of medical advancements. I leave it up to you if Iran is being hindered from advancing scientificly in regards to having nuclear power or not ?
 

DocWolfe

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just to clear this point; Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not a dictator, he was voted into power just as Blair was and Bush wasn't....

In stopping technological progress; nuclear technology has been aquired by the most succesful nations in the world; The US, China, France, UK, India and Russia, other nations who have nuclear technology have alot of influence and are seen as very important; namely Israeli scientists and technology being at hte forefront of medical advancements. I leave it up to you if Iran is being hindered from advancing scientificly in regards to having nuclear power or not ?

I seriously doubt that democracy in iran... is actually democracy. I can remember some big hoo har about the iranian elections not to long ago and how they were rigged as people couldn't actually vote for the opposition for fear of being killed.
 

Darksword

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I seriously doubt that democracy in iran... is actually democracy. I can remember some big hoo har about the iranian elections not to long ago and how they were rigged as people couldn't actually vote for the opposition for fear of being killed.

true, irans democracy is whats known as an electoral democracy rather than a liberal democracy, as defined by Freedom House.

but i dont htink we should delve too deeply into this, besides the point is that Iran is a Democracy; which is seeking to obtain nuclear energy, and world leaders and mass media is suggesting that this is to hide the true reason they want nuclear energy - for nuclear weapons.
 

Darksword

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iran's whole involvement and the way they handled the recent capture of the british soldiers show how immature they are as a nation.

? surely you are talking about the government and not the nation here?

and if you're going to claim the rioters are the populas then why not look at all the irish as belfast rioters? why not all of england as football hooligans when they travel abroad or even here, all polish as facist nazis, as we all know, there has been a small rise in nazi beliefs in poland recently, is this the whole nation?

Another point; 5 Iranian consulates have been held in Iraq for months, seized from the Tehrans Diplomatic Mission in northern Iraq, they were arrested under direct order of the US, why has there been no outcry on that?

Why did the UN hold meetings to impose sanctions and bring "international pressure" on Iran, saying their holding of 15 soldiers is illegal, while they allow the US to do as they like.

I completely agree that Iran handled the situation badly, however, i think the UK government, the UN and the USA all were just as bad at handling this situation. A further note - the president of Iran had very little input into the negotiations over those 15 soldiers. Also; there has not actually been a 100% determined outcome whethar those british soldiers had strayed into Iranian waters or not.
 

Darksword

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Strange situation, I dont believe people that make it known that they want the west wiped off the face of the earth should be allowed to develop this kind of weaponry.

If it was as simple of people building power plants to help the country then fine, but I doubt that shit for brains Iranian has anything other than killing off the west on his mind.

just as a point of questioning; why should the US be allowed nuclear weapons? a country that has already used them on civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, had stand offs with the USSR for decades, and with a leader that has already invaded one nation under belief of weapons of mass destruction; following independent reports stating clearly that no weapons of mass destruction were found are seen as safer than Iran?

Or the prime minister that created panic with his 45 minute claims and now wants to invest 12-25 billion into a nuclear deterent, then give all power and controls over to the US while we pay the maintenance bills?


In a world where having nuclear weapons is seen as a deterent to ensure the safety of you're people - that is what our nuclear program is all about, and why Israel claims they must have nuclear weapons; is it such a crime for Iran to have them when faced with just as much aggression, if not even more so, than these nations?

- Bush still talks of attacking Iran while Blair has already strictly said that invading Iran is not an option.

- Also if international law is to be respected as issued by the UN; Why did the UK and the US invade Iraq without UN consent and not ahve any sanctions brought to bare.
 

Darksword

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It's quite possible that the Iranian anti-west feelings come from the fact that west is trying to impose what is viewed as unfair laws upon them. Likewise, anti-west feelings in Iran can take extreme forms which further infects west's feelings towards Iran. A bad circle if there ever was any.

It's fine to forbid anyone to use nuclear technology - but then you should clean your own backyard first. If US, Israel, UK, France, India, Pakistan and everyone else who wields nukes would say "okay, we are going to start removing our own nukes, but don't you start making them in the meantime!" - these nations would have a morally firmer ground to stand on making these demands on others.

The issue gets more complicated though, as it's not even certain Iran wants nukes. They claim they just want nuclear power for electricity. But their distrust towards west and their pride makes it hard for them to allow inspections in their own country, which leads to west's conclusion that they must be up to something.

To heal this situation, I believe it will take some great leadership both ...

...from the West, i.e. someone that can offer Iran a helping hand with their civilian nuclear plant development, imply an intention of disarmament of the vast nuclear arsenals already in place in their own countries, and possibly even allowing Iranian inspections of their own disarmament progress somewhere down the line as a sign of equality....

...and Iran. Someone who would allow UN inspections of nuclear plants and who would work to open the country to better communications, understanding, and less resentment of the west. Someone who'd make a clear statement that they want to take some responsibility not only for their own country but for the stability of the world.

Pride has alot to do here i agree, neither side is willing to admit their faults and tackle the issue properly.

Iran has been offered many benefits if it stopped it's nuclear enrichment program, even open trade with the EU, but the pride of Ahmadinejad and the people of Iran - to be seen to be backing down or possible even being seen to need EU trade as a sign of weakness to them.

On another point, Iran has allowed for the IAEA (international atomic energy agency) to inspect htere plants, and when the program was restarted in 1979even offered help which was accepted, but then was forced to stop the program after the US forced the IAEA to.

What is making the situation worse is Iran flaunting it's progress to the media as a sign of power.
 

Job

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as a general rule i'd say:

your ruler has a tashe = no nukes
your ruler eats a giant rabbit = no nukes either


Pure class, what a spot on observation of international politics.


All I can say about Iran is that everything you know about that country is bollocks.

Our press systematically slew all the news that comes out of Iran to put it in a bad light, there is NO free press in the UK.
 

DocWolfe

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? surely you are talking about the government and not the nation here?

and if you're going to claim the rioters are the populas then why not look at all the irish as belfast rioters? why not all of england as football hooligans when they travel abroad or even here, all polish as facist nazis, as we all know, there has been a small rise in nazi beliefs in poland recently, is this the whole nation?

Another point; 5 Iranian consulates have been held in Iraq for months, seized from the Tehrans Diplomatic Mission in northern Iraq, they were arrested under direct order of the US, why has there been no outcry on that?

Why did the UN hold meetings to impose sanctions and bring "international pressure" on Iran, saying their holding of 15 soldiers is illegal, while they allow the US to do as they like.

I completely agree that Iran handled the situation badly, however, i think the UK government, the UN and the USA all were just as bad at handling this situation. A further note - the president of Iran had very little input into the negotiations over those 15 soldiers. Also; there has not actually been a 100% determined outcome whethar those british soldiers had strayed into Iranian waters or not.

You just argued that it was a democracy... therefore the people elected him... therefore its not the government its the nation. The whole "Kill Britain" flag burning saga?
 

Morphius

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tbh I dont think it's the government that the west is worried about. It's the active terrorist cells that are in the country and wether the Taliban or similair army would direct there forces to acquiring the nuke.
 

dub

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active terrorist cells in iran ? , could you elaborate on that ? :)
 

Morphius

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well, not that i'm an expert but you always see on the news that it's believed most of the arms in Iraq are being brought in through Iran. And well if there able to bring em into Iraq they're gonna be able to use em in Iran. The Iranians arn't exactly known for having a decent army so if they did own nuclear weapons they arn't going to be anywhere near as safe as the nukes in GB/US etc.

my terminology "terrorist cell" makes it sounds like guerilla fighters etc (just been reading Traitor General and it keeps going on about resistance cells so it was the words that came into my head when i was racking through my neurological dictionary)
 

Darksword

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well, not that i'm an expert but you always see on the news that it's believed most of the arms in Iraq are being brought in through Iran. And well if there able to bring em into Iraq they're gonna be able to use em in Iran. The Iranians arn't exactly known for having a decent army so if they did own nuclear weapons they arn't going to be anywhere near as safe as the nukes in GB/US etc.

my terminology "terrorist cell" makes it sounds like guerilla fighters etc (just been reading Traitor General and it keeps going on about resistance cells so it was the words that came into my head when i was racking through my neurological dictionary)


Iran has the largest armable army in the world with around 850k full time soldiers and a further estimated 11 million or so Basije (voluntary militia).

The allied forces and i believe also the UN believe that the Iranian government is directly arming insurgents and training them, the roadside bombs used against the 4 soldiers and 1 civilian interpreter who died last week after being attacked were supplied by the Iranian government.
 

Morphius

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aye the army is decent, but just say.. when our troops had been threatened with being taken prisoner, if we had any form of support ship close we would've blown em out the water if they hadn't stood down. and what would've Iran done about it?

but that's neither here nor there.

My point was the security of the nuclear facilities.
 

Darksword

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You just argued that it was a democracy... therefore the people elected him... therefore its not the government its the nation. The whole "Kill Britain" flag burning saga?


So because a nation is a democracy, all the people of that nation should be held accountable for that governments behaviour?

Just to question your logic here, didn't the UK not invade Iraq amid a estimated 1 million man march on London? Should those 1 million people be held accountable for the thousands of deaths in Iraq? Personally; I'm against the war on Iraq and i didnt vote for a government that would invade another nation without UN backing or a government that makes false claims of weapons of mass destruction, and immediate threats. Is it still my nations actions that i am "participating in" simply by being a citizen of this nation?

I believe the newspapers reported that it was around 200 students which demonstrated/attacked/acted like idiots outside the British embassy in iran, so should the rest of the nation have to suffer because of this?

If this is your belief, then surely those who have a legitamate reason to hate britian in iraq, say our forces move in there and shoot children dead, kill civilians in cross fire or heck, lets be a bit ridiculas here and even suggest they capture civilians, abuse them, mock them, torture them and beat htem, then strap them up, and hang them from chains to fork lifts and kill these people take photos of them and humiliate them, and the people see this and revolt, but its the actions of our armed forces, a select few even, but still OUR armed forces, should OUR nation face terrorist attacks in answer?
 

Darksword

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aye the army is decent, but just say.. when our troops had been threatened with being taken prisoner, if we had any form of support ship close we would've blown em out the water if they hadn't stood down. and what would've Iran done about it?

but that's neither here nor there.

My point was the security of the nuclear facilities.

sorry i'm not quiet sure what you're getting at here, do you mean the nuclear facilities would get taken over by terrorists? I highly doubt thats likely, i'm no expert but i'm sure that all nuclear facilities in the world are under strict observation and military control (to some extent). As i stated initially, Iran makes around 600g of plutonium a year which is kept under strict control adn has to be disposed of following alot of regulations. Following this, it would tkae over a decade to create a single nuclear bomb, but this doesnt rule out that iran may have intentions of creating a nuclear bomb, surely once they reach the final stage of their operation (recently claiming they have stepped up to industrial scale nuclear enrichment) then they surely plan to expand their nuclear program and the 600g they produce a year will probably be dwarfed.
 

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