your thoughts spin off

[old.Tohtori]

Well duh, forums are all about points of view, and my point of view is that your point of view is flawed.

Then your point in saying my point of view is flawed is?

You offered no point of view to look from, except your own personal point of view, which is no different from mine(except that it's YOUR point of view)

 

[Mojo]

Nonsense.

Depends what you read I guess. Maybe it depends on which god the aliens believe in, (If they believe in God at all) how much neighbourly love they get in return.



They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

 

[Jeremiah]

The verses you are quoting are for the Tribe of Israel, or the Jewish nation, at that particular time. And at that time the cirumstances were God and the Jewish nation Vs the rest of the world, and now (in the Christian opinon) its different. (And no, its not now God Vs The rest of the world =) )

I think you'll find Jesus' teachings did infact mean treat everyone, Jew or Gentile, as yourself. Not only that but he also taught "Love your enemies" and "Turn the other cheek". He broke down the divides.

And Tris, you are right - the far right US Christian movement is extremely twisted. But dont forget, these are the people who also are members of churches like Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[Mojo]

The verses you are quoting are for the Tribe of Israel, or the Jewish nation, at that particular time. And at that time the cirumstances were God and the Jewish nation Vs the rest of the world, and now (in the Christian opinon) its different. (And no, its not now God Vs The rest of the world =) )

So they are on your /Ignore list then? Yet according to this

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

Jesus believes all laws including the old should effectively be obeyed without exception. Yet you and other are happy to discard it.

I think you'll find Jesus' teachings did infact mean treat everyone, Jew or Gentile, as yourself. Not only that but he also taught "Love your enemies" and "Turn the other cheek". He broke down the divides.

That's the popular take on it yes. He also said

"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10)

I am betting that on the ignore list also, like many other things from the bible are. Including the Old testament even though Jesus says it should be obeyed.

It's very easy to pick and choose and Christians do it all day long.

And before anyone says I am only picking the bad stuff, well of course I am, the bible tells them its OK and they now deny it because it clashes with modern thinking. I don't have a book and I abide by the good things, never needed a preacher or a book to tell me right from wrong so why is it we need the bible again if a fair section is no longer believed by its own readers?

And Tris, you are right - the far right US Christian movement is extremely twisted. Baptist Church[/URL].

You even have the cheek to call another Christian group twisted and you imply that there are entire churches of dodgy Christians, what makes you beliefs an less valid than theirs? I mean don't they get their right to pick and choose their bits just like you? Let us at least give them credit for not flexing their beliefs to fit in with popular thinking and to make them more socially acceptable to the rest of us. I could even argue that they actually have more faith in the Bible than you do as they are not ripping bits out.

EDIT (If your not a Christian ignore the fact that I am assuming you are) If you are not then my arguments still stand and put it down to me role-playing you as a Christian) I would rather not get side tracked again

 

[Sharma]

You even have the cheek to call another Christian group twisted and you imply that there are entire churches of dodgy Christians, what makes you beliefs an less valid than theirs? I mean don't they get their right to pick and choose their bits just like you? Let us at least give them credit for not flexing their beliefs to fit in with popular thinking and to make them more socially acceptable to the rest of us. I could even argue that they actually have more faith in the Bible than you do as they are not ripping bits out.

EDIT (If your not a Christian ignore the fact that I am assuming you are) If you are not then my arguments still stand and put it down to me role-playing you as a Christian) I would rather not get side tracked again

When christianity breeds this, that is when it takes the piss.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Quoting the bible shouldn't be done with light heart.

You have to take into context all the words said before and after a particular phrase and also remember that all quotes in the bible, are subject to personal views and beliefs and as such can be twisted.

Even "turn the other cheek" has been mistreated and read a million times differently.

A common man shouldn't quote the bible as a weapon in a discussion.

As an example(now don't get your panties in a bunch):

He also said: "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10)

I bet that's not the whole story there.

 

[Jeremiah]

So they are on your /Ignore list then? Yet according to this

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

Jesus believes all laws including the old should effectively be obeyed without exception. Yet you and other are happy to discard it.

That's the popular take on it yes. He also said

"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10)

I am betting that on the ignore list also, like many other things from the bible are. Including the Old testament even though Jesus says it should be obeyed.

It's very easy to pick and choose and Christians do it all day long.

And before anyone says I am only picking the bad stuff, well of course I am, the bible tells them its OK and they now deny it because it clashes with modern thinking. I don't have a book and I abide by the good things, never needed a preacher or a book to tell me right from wrong so why is it we need the bible again if a fair section is no longer believed by its own readers?

Ok now I'm beginning to see you frustrations with the Christian faith. The law given in the Old Testement indeed still applies, but it is no longer the way to Heaven. What I mean by that is that the Law was given to the Jews in order to highlight to them what was sin in God's eyes and also how they could make themselves right with God (through sacrifices etc..). It was, and still is, a guideline for living right in God's eyes, but it no longer has power to condemn to hell.

Now if you read a bit further in your Bible into Galations you'll get an explanation of why Christians dont seem to follow the law, and its because we live as if no longer under the law - that is we have (in our eyes) Jesus as our way to make ourselves right with God. This might sound "pie in the sky" but its hard to explain in one forum post and I cant imagine there would be any support for a second post =) So in a nutshell, the Law indeed still applies as a way to distinguish between right and wrong (and so not one word of it should be taken away), but it no longer condemns people.

When Jesus said "He who curses his Mother or Father shall die", he is right because according to the law, that is sin and sin = death. Infact, he was actually expanding on the commandment "Honour your father and mother".

You even have the cheek to call another Christian group twisted and you imply that there are entire churches of dodgy Christians, what makes you beliefs an less valid than theirs? I mean don't they get their right to pick and choose their bits just like you? Let us at least give them credit for not flexing their beliefs to fit in with popular thinking and to make them more socially acceptable to the rest of us. I could even argue that they actually have more faith in the Bible than you do as they are not ripping bits out.

EDIT (If your not a Christian ignore the fact that I am assuming you are) If you are not then my arguments still stand and put it down to me role-playing you as a Christian) I would rather not get side tracked again

I'm a Christian but its ok, I dont mind you having issue with my faith or the way I act =) Its your right to after all =)

I'll tell you what makes my beliefs more valid than theirs. I base mine on the message given in the new testement. They base theirs on a twisted version it to be deliberatley controversial. They believe that if you commit any sin, you are condemed to hell without any chance of pardon or forgiveness. Thats not the Christian message at all - even they are judged by their own message and therefore deserve hell (in their eyes!).

 

[Mojo]

When christianity breeds this, that is when it takes the piss.

Fred Phelps is vary scary, but his beliefs are supported by the bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)

That's the basis for everything he does.

You won't see him quoting " Love the neighbour" or "Turn the other Cheek"

The problem with nit picking at your belief from your "Holy Book" is quite obvious. You can't allow some people to have the right to interpret things so it fit's in with popular social thinking and deny anyone else because their interpretation doesn't.

 

[Mojo]

A common man shouldn't quote the bible as a weapon in a discussion.

Why not? why cant Atheists get into the discussion? and why not use the subject matter of the discussion to make points. It's our world too we are a part of it but we mostly wander about by ourselves not caring. Why not stand up learn this stuff and put our selves in a position where we can argue reason and maybe halt things like Creationism appearing on the curriculum?

I bet that's not the whole story there.

You would be surprised, really you would. Here are another 2 relating to the same subject.

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offence. (Leviticus 20:9)


Capital Offence, what more do you need?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Why not? why cant Atheists get into the discussion? and why not use the subject matter of the discussion to make points. It's our world too we are a part of it but we mostly wander about by ourselves not caring. Why not stand up learn this stuff and put our selves in a position where we can argue reason and maybe halt things like Creationism appearing on the curriculum?

You misunderstand(calm now), i meant common man as in any common man outside of learning the bible and dedicating more towards it.

No matter the religion/belief of that individual.

It was meant as a "warning" of sorts, to be careful when quoting the bible as it is highly controversial and also as it is highly perception related, how the writings are seen, that it can 'cause quite some misunderstandings and clash of words/ideas.

You would be surprised, really you would. Here are another 2 relating to the same subject.

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offence. (Leviticus 20:9)


Capital Offence, what more do you need?

Sure, some are quite "grim" in their message, but i was merely stating that when taking parts out, they lose some of their meaning.

Like that"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10) thing, it loses its meaning and message in it, as much as taking some words out of context would.

It's not ofcourse ALWAYS the case, but one should really read the whole thing to see the meaning of one line.

 

[Mojo]

You misunderstand(calm now), i meant common man as in any common man outside of learning the bible and dedicating more towards it.

No matter the religion/belief of that individual.

Well the bible an other religious books and the beliefs that come from them overspill into our society as a whole so should be open to society for scrutiny and comment after all the bible and it's followers frequently comment on what the common man does in private behind closed doors. In fact the all seeing god will punish you by sending you to hell or striking you down for what you might get up to in the privacy of your own home.

So I don't see a problem of commenting on what the Christian reads in public and on occasion attempt to put into my hand.

Sure, some are quite "grim" in their message, but i was merely stating that when taking parts out, they lose some of their meaning.

Fair comment but thats kinda why I included the Book Details, in that case Mark 7 10 It's easily searched and that way people can make their own interpretations and not rely on my take on it. It also keeps the posts shorter.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So I don't see a problem of commenting on what the Christian reads in public and on occasion attempt to put into my hand.

Fair comment but thats kinda why I included the Book Details, in that case Mark 7 10 It's easily searched and that way people can make their own interpretations and not rely on my take on it. It also keeps the posts shorter.

Both fair points, and rather true.

On the "quoting the bible" thing, i'd say it's ok to do, just should not be suprised if it causes "anger" or "discontent" in some people.

About the mark 7:10, have to comment the line in more detail after i find the whole thing, but as such, you have a fair point, keeps discussion a lot shorter. Maybe we need to quote with a link

 

[noblok]

I won't go into the specifics of bible interpretation, because I can't: I haven't studied it. However, I can tell you that according to a course I took in Christian social and political ethics the religion of the alien doesn't matter. The course was more oriented towards the Roman catholicism though. I also know this is a boring argument and I'm not really expecting you to accept it as the truth, but I'm just giving it as additional information.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)

Although I said before that I haven't studied the Bible, I find the above quote interesting and will attempt to explain it in a more generally accepted way. Please note that this is purely personal and I have no authority whatsoever when it comes to bible interpretation.

Anyway, what's interesting about this quote is that it doesn't say "homosexuality is wrong" or even "homosexual sex is wrong". With bestiality e.g. it clearly says that a man can't have intercourse with an animal (Ex 22, 19: ""Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death."). There is no such wording here. One could interpret this as a commandment to respect the difference of the sexes. You don't treat a woman the same way you treat a man. You could argue this is sexism, personally I think it's a bit more refined than that. Then again, I also think the standpoint feminists are the most interesting of feminists .

 

[old.Tohtori]

Anyway, what's interesting about this quote is that it doesn't say "homosexuality is wrong" or even "homosexual sex is wrong". With bestiality e.g. it clearly says that a man can't have intercourse with an animal (Ex 22, 19: ""Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death."). There is no such wording here. One could interpret this as a commandment to respect the difference of the sexes. You don't treat a woman the same way you treat a man. You could argue this is sexism, personally I think it's a bit more refined than that. Then again, I also think the standpoint feminists are the most interesting of feminists .

Also, "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13) could be interpreted as "If a guy sleeps with both", meaning that bi-sexuality is wrong, but sleeping with either one(not both) is ok."

 

[Calaen]

I think the bible is bollocks, I have read it twice and it is just to open to scrutiny. Monty Python got it so right in the movie.

 

[DocWolfe]

Seel you always seem to take the opposite view of the majority... this is a pattern... do you do it on purpose?

 

[Bugz]

The Bible can never be used to argue a point - as there's always a conflicting view within the Bible itself.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Seel you always seem to take the opposite view of the majority... this is a pattern... do you do it on purpose?

Oh f*ck off with that already...

Always some f*ck i swear to gods.

 

[Mojo]

The Bible can never be used to argue a point - as there's always a conflicting view within the Bible itself.

But that is the point Bugz

 

[Gamah]

Oh f*ck off with that already...

Always some f*ck i swear to gods.

It's true, theres not one thread where you agree with someone, you always have some outlandish view. I'm starting to think you're actually an idiot and not just putting it on for attention

 

[old.Tohtori]

It's true, theres not one thread where you agree with someone, you always have some outlandish view. I'm starting to think you're actually an idiot and not just putting it on for attention

Maybe that's 'cause you don't see me coming to threads and posting "Mm, yes i agree on this point." What's the point in that sort of +1 threads?

You'll find i agree with alot of things, just those don't get discussed that much for you "Oh you anti everything!" fanatics to grasp on.

And even on the things i seem to oppose, i'm not the only one, just not the majority perhaps.

 

[Gamah]

Oh please...if someone posted a thread saying "you need oxygen to live" you would argue the point.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Oh please...if someone posted a thread saying "you need oxygen to live" you would argue the point.

You seriously need a new hobby or something.

Come on then, prove that i'm always arguing. Link up.

What? This thread? Political view on government money handling? Or maybe the religion thing?

 

[Gamah]

You seriously need a new hobby or something.

Come on then, prove that i'm always arguing. Link up.

What? This thread? Political view on government money handling? Or maybe the religion thing?

Give me another hobby I can do while at work and gladly?

Your the one who uses his free time to post on the forums, so in essence it's your "hobby" for me its a time killer.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Give me another hobby I can do while at work and gladly?

Your the one who uses his free time to post on the forums, so in essence it's your "hobby" for me its a time killer.

I actually just post while doing what i do. I posted while at work too, so it's no different.

And no offense, but if you seriously want to have "fun" bothering me, atleast come up with something new.

Bet someone comes along soon and goes "OMG you stole the thread tohtori!!" or something equally idiotic...

 

[Gamah]

I'm not having "fun" I'm killing time by posting hence me saying "time killer"

 

[Bugz]

Ffs tohtori, stop stealing the fuckin thread!

 

[Levin]

Ffs tohtori, stop stealing the fuckin thread!

With all the threads he stole he could knit a whole shirt by now!

(just joking Toh!)

 

[old.Tohtori]

Oh i can take a joke alright, especially from people who i know joke, but i bet there's one poster out there cursing me 'cause i said that before they could post it

And yes, the shirt is quite a nice one, will post picture later

 

[noblok]

The Bible can never be used to argue a point - as there's always a conflicting view within the Bible itself.

Of course it can, what else should a christian base his beliefs on? I'm not saying it's easy (hence why I'm reluctant to interpret Bible fragments), but it is possible.