Xbox 360 vs Wii vs PS3 - what'd you get ?

[soze]

Ok, let me break this down for you.

PS3 has no hardware scaler, Sony omitted one for a couple of reasons. First was cost, PS3 hardware costs were going through roof and they had to cut corners somewhere, the scaler was considered to be surplus to requirements and ditched. Secondly, the reason they saw it as surplus to requirements was that they wanted the console to progressive scan only and 1080i didn't really fit into the picture.

That was thier first mistake right there, you see ever since 2003 Sony were selling Bravia TV's as HDTV that ONLY supported 1080i, now you see the problem? PS3 games run as either 1080p or 720p and 1080i doesn't really come into the equation, they made a console that wouldn't work well on over 3 million of the HDTV's they shipped since 2003. The console would see the TV didn't support 1080p or 720p and so it defaulted to 480p, not a great idea when you bought a PS3 and HDTV on the understanding that they were both high definition capable. A major boo-boo by Sony there, many thousands of PS3 owners are now stuck watching thier PS3 in crappy 480p on 2004 Bravia TV's because the PS3 lacks a hardware scaler to either scale either a 720p or 1080p picture to 1080i. I am sure you would be pissed Soze if you had paid all that money for a high definition TV and PS3 and were stuck at a really low resolution because Sony saved themselves $10 by leaving a hardware scaler out.

So, Sony have been searching for a fix these last 2 months because the gaming and entertainment media in America have been slaughtering them over lack of proper 1080i support. Now we have the fix and what a crock of shit it is, a firmware fix (hack would be closer to the mark) that forces the graphics chip to resize each frame to 1080i after rendering internally at 1080p/720p. Now you may ask why that makes it a crock of shit? Well the graphics chip has enough work to do as it is, now it has to act as a pseudo scaler something has to give and that something is framerate performance in games. Of course you haven't read much about this yet because the firmware isn't live but mark my words right now, those people with 1080i only Bravia sets are going to be getting shitty game performance once this firmware goes live. From shit low res qualiy to shit gaming performance in one simple firmware upgrade, all to save Sony $10.

It gets worse, Sony are already rumoured to be working on adding a hardware scaler for version 2 of the PS3 now that Blu-Ray costs are easing off. This probably means machines made next winter will have a hardware scaler, great for those customers who buy the consoles then but crap for the Sony Bravia 1080i TV owners who will never get true high performance high definition gaming from their PS3 because Sony cut corners and ended up shafting thier loyal customers.

I surrender I was just posting what Stuff said and from what MS said in that article you posted Sony could add a Software upscale but it would be difficult.

I do not claim enough to have a intellectual debate over it so I will just give up and point at Stuff who said it

 

[cHodAX]

I surrender I was just posting what Stuff said and from what MS said in that article you posted Sony could add a Software upscale but it would be difficult.

I do not claim enough to have a intellectual debate over it so I will just give up and point at Stuff who said it

Yeah I am not saying you said otherwise bud, I was just pointing out what the 'fix' was and why it was needed. The problem is that the 'fix' they are claming isn't really a fix, it is a workaround that will sacrifice GPU performance for the sake of backwards compatabilty with certain TV's in games. The E.U. console will be shipping with no extra hardware to counter the problem, just a firmware upgrade because if they did a hardware revision right now they would be facing a class action lawsuit from American customers who would rightfully feel they were beta testers for the E.U. release and Sony cannot allow that to happen.

 

[Mojo]

An Interesting Read

So how does the xbox 360 handle HD?

I am going off the PS3 and am leaning toward the xbox 360 now.

 

[Chronictank]

So how does the xbox 360 handle HD?

I am going off the PS3 and am leaning toward the xbox 360 now.

360 has a chip on board to scale it

 

[cHodAX]

So how does the xbox 360 handle HD?

I am going off the PS3 and am leaning toward the xbox 360 now.

Since the November update 360 supports all HD resolutions right up to 1080p in both games and movie playback. Older games that were coded to run at 720p/1080i before the update are still rendered at 720p/1080i but can be upscaled via the hardware scaler chip to 1080p and it looks bloody sweet. Newer games will now support internal 1080p rendering for true 1080p output, the only drawback right now is a lack of HDMI for video out so we are using VGA or component. It looks great, matching HD video on PS3's Blu-Ray easily.

 

[Mojo]

Consoles + HD are starting to make sense to me now

Thanks chaps.

 

[soze]

Yeah I am not saying you said otherwise bud, I was just pointing out what the 'fix' was and why it was needed. The problem is that the 'fix' they are claming isn't really a fix, it is a workaround that will sacrifice GPU performance for the sake of backwards compatabilty with certain TV's in games. The E.U. console will be shipping with no extra hardware to counter the problem, just a firmware upgrade because if they did a hardware revision right now they would be facing a class action lawsuit from American customers who would rightfully feel they were beta testers for the E.U. release and Sony cannot allow that to happen.

If possible Sony should release a little add on that plugs into the machine to do hardware up scaling and either give it away or sell it very cheap

I think my tv is only 1080i but that might be becuase thats all sky hd runs at but when its time to upgrade 1080p and at least 2 hdmi ports are a must

According to IGN GT HD is the only confirmed 1080p game so far for the ps3 the rest will be 720p 1080i after reading something about i and p my eyes hurt and i do not know if im upset

 

[Mojo]

I think my tv is only 1080i but that might be becuase thats all sky hd runs at but when its time to upgrade 1080p and at least 2 hdmi ports are a must

I thought most tv's were running at 1080i atm? and that broadcasters would need new kit to make things for 1080p so my understanding is that 1080p is only usefull for consoles and dvd's as movies are transposed from 35mm to 1080p?

I just got a 1080i 32" lcd with 2 hdmi's I figured I might by a new 1080p TV in 2 years when the price comes down as i dont really see the benefits of getting one atm.

Or am i way off in my understanding?

 

[soze]

I thought most tv's were running at 1080i atm? and that broadcasters would need new kit to make things for 1080p so my understanding is that 1080p is only usefull for consoles and dvd's as movies are transposed from 35mm to 1080p?


Or am i way off in my understanding?

Most HD TV is 720p except for Sky who send it at 1080i to save bandwidth or something

As i understand it yes most stuff will come out 720p to be universal? and blu ray players hd dvds ect will up scale it to 1080p I think maybe at least

HD Resolutions

For a TV picture to be HD it has to be one of three resolutions: 720p, 1080i or 1080p. There are other resolutions, but they're essentially standard definition (SD) sizes. The resolution's number is the number of horizontal lines that make up the image, analogous to its height in pixels. The letter, p or i, stands for 'progressive' or 'interlaced'.

Progressive images are displayed like a movie, one frame at a time, in rapid succession. Interlacing is the same technique used in regular TV: send half the picture at a time but do so twice as quickly. It's a bandwidth-saving technique. Each 'half' of the image comprises alternate sets of lines, so first you send lines 1,3,5,7... etc. then you send 2,4,6,8... and so on. The first set is drawn on the TV screen, then the second lot, but the speed is such that they eye doesn't notice.

Well, almost. In practice, this approach can create visible artefacts when rapidly moving images and there's a slight downgrade in the image's effective resolution. This isn't an issue with progressive pictures, which is why most US HD broadcasters show programmes in 720p not 1080i, even though the latter has more pixels and therefore should be more detailed

Your eyes should not be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p according to this except fast moving images so games

 

[cHodAX]

I thought most tv's were running at 1080i atm? and that broadcasters would need new kit to make things for 1080p so my understanding is that 1080p is only usefull for consoles and dvd's as movies are transposed from 35mm to 1080p?


Or am i way off in my understanding?

99% of all broadcasts at 720p and 1080i right now and that won't change any time soon, 1080p just needs too much bandwidth and processing for it to be viable as a broacdcast standard at the moment.

Sky mix and match resolution depending on the broadcast if I remember rightly. 720p for example is supposed to be much better for sports like football and 1080i more suited to movies. Most HDTV sets made in the last 2 years support both 720p and 1080i although alot of cheaper LCD HDTV's are now leaving 1080i support out which is a big mistake and something anyone buying an LCD should watch out for.

1080p is a lovely standard but not many can afford to splash £1500 on a TV right now so 720p/1080i are rapidly becoming the defacto standard for both HD broadcasting and gaming. HD films are encoded at 1080p but dependant on the player they can be downscaled, part of the PS3's problem is that because they have no hardware scaler the scaling is being done in software for Blu-Ray films and it just doesn't do a great job downscaling to 720p which most current HDTV's support.

 

[Chronictank]

Most HD TV is 720p except for Sky who send it at 1080i to save bandwidth or something

As i understand it yes most stuff will come out 720p to be universal? and blu ray players hd dvds ect will up scale it to 1080p I think maybe at least

Your eyes should not be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p according to this except fast moving images so games

now im confused,
then why do people buy 1080i tv's for gaming? seeing as they are worse than a 1080p set :S (artifacts etc)
Surely it would have made more sense for high end gaming to use 1080p like Sony have :S

Also wouldnt the TV have the capability to switch between the 2 according to the input?
Im not particularly learned in the matter but when you play dvd's it is progressive and when you watch tv on its interlaced :s
i dont see why it is a issue :/
maybe i just misunderstood the whole progressive vs interlaced thing


Edit: just read above, i versions are cheaper

 

[Mojo]

Most HD TV is 720p except for Sky who send it at 1080i to save bandwidth or something

As i understand it yes most stuff will come out 720p to be universal? and blu ray players hd dvds ect will up scale it to 1080p I think maybe at least

Your eyes should not be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p according to this except fast moving images so games

Interesting stuff, tbh I was starting to think I had made a bad choice getting a 720p/1080i TV but now I think its fine for what i need it for.

Cheers

 

[cHodAX]

Most HD TV is 720p except for Sky who send it at 1080i to save bandwidth or something

As i understand it yes most stuff will come out 720p to be universal? and blu ray players hd dvds ect will up scale it to 1080p I think maybe at least

Your eyes should not be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p according to this except fast moving images so games

It is true that a HD movie properly scaled to 1080i can look very very close to the quality of a 1080p picture, the problem is that PS3 does not scale to the resolution but it will after the firmware fix. The problem with that though is that they use the GPU and some software routines to downscale and the image is poor. The 360 having a hardware scaler does a beautiful job at down or upscaling, Microsoft did a good deed adding that chip and taking the extra $ hit.

 

[cHodAX]

Interesting stuff, tbh I was starting to think I had made a bad choice getting a 720p/1080i TV but now I think its fine for what i need it for.

Cheers

My 50inch TV supports the same resolutions as yours, 1080p would be lovely but there won't be any 1080p TV broadcasts for a long time in the U.K. so the TV would really be limited to watching HD movies and gaming anyway making it hard to justify the extra cost unless you are loaded with cash.

1080i can look great if the hardware properly supports it, sadly the PS3 won't until they add a hardware scaler in version 2 which is due in the next 12 months.

 

[cHodAX]

Edit: just read above, i versions are cheaper

Yep, 32inch 1080i costs £350 upwards but a 32inch 1080p would set you back nearly 4 times the cost.

 

[Naffets]

I got over my ps3 not having a hardware scaler by purchasing a 1080p screen for it

GTHD isn't a confirmed 1080p game as its been binned. The concept demos (1 of which is out now) are in 1080p though. GT5 will probably be 1080p, my Ridge Racer box says 1080p on aswell.

Cant remember what my Resistance box says.

I agree though, Sony made a mistake not including a hardware scalar, a big mistake.

 

[Mojo]

My 50inch TV supports the same resolutions as yours, 1080p would be lovely but there won't be any 1080p TV broadcasts for a long time in the U.K. so the TV would really be limited to watching HD movies and gaming anyway making it hard to justify the extra cost unless you are loaded with cash.

1080i can look great if the hardware properly supports it, sadly the PS3 won't until they add a hardware scaler in version 2 which is due in the next 12 months.

Ok cheers, now i am happy with my TV choice I think I will get an xbox360.

When 1080p is standard and we have a HD DVD Winner i will go spend the money i have saved. Like you said, it is hard to justify the extra cost for such little benefit right now.

 

[soze]

1080i can look great if the hardware properly supports it, sadly the PS3 won't until they add a hardware scaler in version 2 which is due in the next 12 months.

That would be Sonys biggest nono to date if they say you need v2 for it the PR department should just say to them give the chip away just take your ps3 to a sony center pay £20 and they will fit the chip. If there is a version 2 out with in a year it would be a pisstake

 

[cHodAX]

I got over my ps3 not having a hardware scaler by purchasing a 1080p screen for it

GTHD isn't a confirmed 1080p game as its been binned. The concept demos (1 of which is out now) are in 1080p though. GT5 will probably be 1080p, my Ridge Racer box says 1080p on aswell.

Cant remember what my Resistance box says.

I agree though, Sony made a mistake not including a hardware scalar, a big mistake.

Ridge Racer takes the piss, all the source art was made for a 720p game so running the game at 1080p makes the game look higher res and smoother but very bland. That seems to be the compromise with 1080p, you have have to limit texture size somewhat because of the increased frame buffer size and the GPU only has so much pixel pushing power. In all honesty the only graphics chips really capable of doing 1080p with the highest quality texturing and effects are the new Nvidia G80 generation which is a full generation ahead of the chips currently in PS3 and 360. So 1080p will always be a compromise when it comes to gaming on the current generation because to do 1080p properly you really need 512mb of texture memory and alot more pixel shading power than currently on offer in either console.

 

[cHodAX]

That would be Sonys biggest nono to date if they say you need v2 for it the PR department should just say to them give the chip away just take your ps3 to a sony center pay £20 and they will fit the chip. If there is a version 2 out with in a year it would be a pisstake

You can't just give them the chip or fit it, The PS3 board was changed to work without it. You would have to create an extenal scaler and they aren't so cheap to produce that Sony could afford to give them away. Right now the lack of 1080i doesn't effect that many people but it is still many thousands, Sony will try get away with the firmware 'fix' and hope people can live with the performance hit.

 

[psyco]

whats scaling? is it changing the resolution for your tv size?

 

[soze]

You can't just give them the chip or fit it, The PS3 board was changed to work without it. You would have to create an extenal scaler and they aren't so cheap to produce that Sony could afford to give them away. Right now the lack of 1080i doesn't effect that many people but it is still many thousands, Sony will try get away with the firmware 'fix' and hope people can live with the performance hit.

Im not gonna disagree but if Sony have made the PS3 to be as expandable as a PC so you can swap graphics ect you would think adding something like this would be achiveable. I have over £1500 in my PS3 pot now i could save abit more and go for a 1080p tv

whats scaling? is it changing the resolution for your tv size?

Yep changing the images original size to fit your screen

 

[cHodAX]

Im not gonna disagree but if Sony have made the PS3 to be as expandable as a PC so you can swap graphics ect you would think adding something like this would be achiveable. I have over £1500 in my PS3 pot now i could save abit more and go for a 1080p tv

What the fek? ROFL! You can't swap graphics on your PS3 bud, the graphics card is build into the mainboard, it isn't some form of expansion card!

The only expandabilty the PS3 has is for adding bigger hard drives. You can't add memory or anything else for that matter. The 360 offers the exact same expandabilty. If you disagree then please be specific, I have a good grasp of the PS3 technology and I know for certain that the hardware cannot be upgraded beyond hard drive swapping.

I suggest you read this Wiki page to get a clearer idea of the PS3 hardware...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ps3

 

[cHodAX]

whats scaling? is it changing the resolution for your tv size?

It is a way of using algorithms (either in hardware or software) to achieve the resizing of an image or series of images with the minimum of quality loss and artifacting. Hardware is by it's nature much faster at doing this and generally results in a much better resize quality with less artifacts.

 

[soze]

What the fek? ROFL! You can't swap graphics on your PS3 bud, the graphics card is build into the mainboard, it isn't some form of expansion card!

The only expandabilty the PS3 has is for adding bigger hard drives. You can't add memory or anything else for that matter. The 360 offers the exact same expandabilty. If you disagree then please be specific, I have a good grasp of the PS3 technology and I know for certain that the hardware cannot be upgraded beyond hard drive swapping.

I suggest you read this Wiki page to get a clearer idea of the PS3 hardware...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ps3

I know i have read that but the Playstation president Ken Whatshisface said that was the difference and reason for the price rise, its not meant to be a console that has static hardware that becomes cheaper as its life gose on. Its now a PC alternative with swapable parts.

I suppose what i said was a dig at that more than anything as it seems the parts that they could chage to make the thing better can not be changed.

 

[cHodAX]

I know i have read that but the Playstation president Ken Whatshisface said that was the difference and reason for the price rise, its not meant to be a console that has static hardware that becomes cheaper as its life gose on. Its now a PC alternative with swapable parts.

I suppose what i said was a dig at that more than anything as it seems the parts that they could chage to make the thing better can not be changed.

Soze, the PS3 has no upgradeable hardware beyond the hard drive. I don't know how else to put it. You have been reading too many Ken Kurtagi comments and not actually opened your eyes to see what the facts are.

Sony have pulled this kind of shit before and tricked people by saying the PS2 hardware was powerful enough to become a guidance system for a ballistic missile, that all turned out to be bollocks as well. They tell you that PS3's are going to be turned into supercomptuers which is a real twist on the truth which is that CELL is going to be used as a co-processer a new range of supercomputer. One CELL processor? No thousands of them. The PS3 is no more a supercomputer than my arse is an elbow but Sony put a spin on it and the un-informed believe every word.

 

[cHodAX]

Ok Soze, here is a picture of the PS3 motherboard. Notice no slots for expansion...

The Nvidia graphics chip is soldered directly onto the mainboard as is all the memory and the rest of the chipset including CELL and PS2. There are no slots or sockets for upgrade, the PS3 is a fixed hardware system.

 

[Straef]

Anyhoo, the PS3 won't be backward compatible, will it? Someone told me so the other day, but I don't know why it shouldn't be

 

[Neffneff]

Anyhoo, the PS3 won't be backward compatible, will it? Someone told me so the other day, but I don't know why it shouldn't be

It will be yes.

 

[Naffets]

ps3 is fully backward compatible (aside from some graphics problems)

there is a compatibility checker on the playstation homepage.

However a NTSC ps3 plays NTSC ps2 games only
a NTSC/J ps3 plays NTSC/J ps2 games only

So I should imagine... a PAL ps3 plays PAL ps2 games only

edit: You can also play pirated ps2 games, but that voids the warranty. Possible tho Can also bypass region checks via the same way.