World of Warcraft: Vanilla server drama

[BloodOmen]

So, I did enquire if it was alright to talk about this, @TdC did say it was ok since I was technically doing anything illegal.

Brief rundown of what happened

There was a private (yes, illegal) WoW server called Nostralius, it was incredibly popular, more so than any current live server, it had 800,000 registered accounts and 150,000 concurrent users, it was very well done, it was basically just a carbon copy of the Vanilla WoW you remember. Blizzard didn't like that and decided to have it shut down (which technically they're well within their legal rights to do so) morally though, they were just being a bunch of fuck nuggets.

There is now a petition up, it's not to get the server reinstated per say but rather get Blizzard to really consider making an official Vanilla WoW server set OR make private vanilla servers legal providing they aren't profiting (worth noting Nostralius was a profit free server, people could donate to help with server costs but there was no pay to win items, no sub model, they were doing it purely out of their love for Vanilla WoW)

You can find more information about the whole thing at the below links, you can also sign the petition (even if you aren't interested in Vanilla WoW but respect other people that are interested in it) the petition is currently at about 180,000 signatures.

Mike Morhaime: Legacy server among World of Warcraft community - petition

Ex-World of Warcraft dev Mark Kern will take vanilla server petition to Mike Morhaime - EX-WoW dev that helped make Vanilla giving his thoughts

the final days of Nostralius / in iron forge

 

[fettoken]

It's summer. Accept that things eventually come to an end. Go out and grab some sunlight. Start something new. You're living in the past.

 

[Moriath]

Im not sure why you think they are morally wrong for getting a server using their code and ip illegally, shut down.

Seems the ones stealing that aformentioned stuffs are those of dubious morals.

 

[Gwadien]

Im not sure why you think they are morally wrong for getting a server using their code and ip illegally, shut down.

Seems the ones stealing that aformentioned stuffs are those of dubious morals.

You didn't read the OP - It says to either open back the server, or to make their own.

It doesn't matter that it's free or not, it matters that they get a server that they want, IE DAOC Eden project (Or what ever it was called)

Or what Fett said

 

[Moriath]

I read it. But op said that them closing it was morrally wrong. Which is what i picked up on.

I see his solutions, no issue with them opening their own vanilla server. Just the point where he describes them as 'morrally though, they were just being a bunch of fuck nuggets' for closing the free server.

@Gwadien

 

[BloodOmen]

Petition should hit 200k either today or tomorrow, maybe the next day at the latest, currently at 192k

 

[Raven]

Vanilla WoW was garbage.

 

[BloodOmen]

Vanilla WoW was garbage.

Your opinion, if you didn't like it that's fine, doesn't mean 200k+ people should be denied a Vanilla server, the demand is clearly there.

 

[Deebs]

See I have been following this quite closely as I am unsure where the copyright is being broken for the following reasons:

• The server code is formed from MangOS, which I believe does not contain any Blizzard code.
• The IP is actually in the client, all the server does is respond to queries on what actions to do, perform RNG, update events completed.

The MangOS project has been ongoing since 2005 and is under no threat from Blizzard for the reasons above, I assume. Now, to me, the clients (users of the server) are the ones violating the TOS/EULA as there does not exist one for a server operator who never installed the game.

 

[BloodOmen]

Just have to see what happens, Mark Kern said he'd personally hand deliver the petition to Mike Morhaime if it hits 200k+ signatures. Blizzard have just ignored such requests in the past, I think there was a petition a few years back that only got to 30k signs or something, and the odd guy at BlizzCon asking for it, I can't see them just flat out ignoring a 200k signature petition though, it'd be pretty bad PR for them.

 

[Moriath]

See I have been following this quite closely as I am unsure where the copyright is being broken for the following reasons:

• The server code is formed from MangOS, which I believe does not contain any Blizzard code.
• The IP is actually in the client, all the server does is respond to queries on what actions to do, perform RNG, update events completed.

The MangOS project has been ongoing since 2005 and is under no threat from Blizzard for the reasons above, I assume. Now, to me, the clients (users of the server) are the ones violating the TOS/EULA as there does not exist one for a server operator who never installed the game.

SO there is no Blizzard back end code at all in the back end of a free shard to coin a phrase. Its been developed separately by individuals to handle the information provided by the clients ?
Wouldnt blizzards T+C say something about using and manipulating data that originates from their client as well tho ?

 

[Moriath]

Just have to see what happens, Mark Kern said he'd personally hand deliver the petition to Mike Morhaime if it hits 200k+ signatures. Blizzard have just ignored such requests in the past, I think there was a petition a few years back that only got to 30k signs or something, and the odd guy at BlizzCon asking for it, I can't see them just flat out ignoring a 200k signature petition though, it'd be pretty bad PR for them.

i am guessing that 200k people who are not paying to the coffers of Blizz have a small voice compared to the millions of subs they have

 

[Ctuchik]

Alternatively Blizzard will look at those figures and say "hmm there's actually enough want for such a server for us to justify opening one ourselves"....

Because there's no way Blizzard will let that many people play their MMO on a server that they do not have direct control over..

And if they do open a vanilla server there will also be a subscription.

 

[Deebs]

SO there is no Blizzard back end code at all in the back end of a free shard to coin a phrase. Its been developed separately by individuals to handle the information provided by the clients ?
Wouldnt blizzards T+C say something about using and manipulating data that originates from their client as well tho ?

From what I can understand yes, there is no Blizzard backend code. They have written it from scratch. As to the T&C, if user A installs the client, and user B develops the backend code without ever installing/playing the game how can the T&C apply to user B without them ever seeing them?

 

[Moriath]

From what I can understand yes, there is no Blizzard backend code. They have written it from scratch. As to the T&C, if user A installs the client, and user B develops the backend code without ever installing/playing the game how can the T&C apply to user B without them ever seeing them?

more on patent and copyright laws no ? using the IP of the company which is the data produced by the clients to provide a service. Because without the client generated data the back end is nothing ? SO they are utilising data created in specific formats and containing specificly coded information to do with their game without which the back end would be useless.

pretty cleaver reverse engineering it ... however i think you would have to go through the hardware reverse engineering loop of proving you have never seen the game and then from a spec sheet or something you created the copy

 

[Deebs]

more on patent and copyright laws no ? using the IP of the company which is the data produced by the clients to provide a service. Because without the client generated data the back end is nothing ? SO they are utilising data created in specific formats and containing specificly coded information to do with their game without which the back end would be useless.

pretty cleaver reverse engineering it ... however i think you would have to go through the hardware reverse engineering loop of proving you have never seen the game and then from a spec sheet or something you created the copy

Well the server backend is emulated which I believe is not illegal. If the server operators do not distribute or link to the compatible clients then I fail to see how they have broken any TOS/EULA if they have never installed the client. It is all moot as Nost decided to pull the plug along with their hosts as they did not want the risk of the legal battle. The point is this, private servers are still popping up all over the place and will continue to do so. The server backend MangOS is not under any threat and has been chugging along for 11 years.

The same happened to RuneScape, they embraced it and now earn revenue from the "legacy" servers which seem to be more popular than the recent stuff.

So, let's see if Blizzard decide to respond to the petition, either with a yes or no and what actions they are going to take.

ps. Nost have stated they should be in a position to release their source around the 30th April dependant on receiving responses or not from interested parties.

 

[Raven]

You could argue that as people are (presumably) buying the game in the first place then they can do with it what they please. There are no terms of sale to be agreed to and the EULA etc are all on the Bliz servers, not the installation (and are pretty much pointless and unenforceable from a legal POV anyway, they have have certainly never been challenged)

If the server is running unique code that uses no Bliz code or assets (I doubt that, personally) and the end user is using a legit copy (again, I everyone has a legal copy) of the client side software that they have paid for then I reckon there isn't a great deal Blizzard can do, morally or legally.

That doesn't mean they can't bring one huge case against the people running the server, one that they simply could not afford to defend.

 

[Moriath]

i see what your saying like buying a car and the manufacturer doesnt want you to take it on a track but you do anyway.

i not read through the pages of waffle that blizz put into the eula but usually theres the if you have opened installed and run this then you are accepting our terms thing that a lot of people use and using it in ways it wasnt meant to etc etc

but how legal that would be no one has really tested i think

 

[Raven]

Yeah but you can't say "if you have done this already you have agreed to X" You have to say that first.

Its like me saying that by responding to my post you have agreed to pay me £100

 

[Deebs]

I stand corrected after looking at the installation instructions, the server backend (logic, rules) is emulated but certain client assets need to be also copied to the server.

 

[BloodOmen]

The petition is at 197,175 now, guess we'll be seeing a response from Blizzard shortly, unless they're just going to let the petition ride all the way to 250k-300k, i'd let it ride personally, more sigs the better. It's like Mark Kern said, Blizzard couldn't care less about the servers, all they care about is the numbers, if you go to them with 10,000 people asking for a Vanilla server, they'll tell you to jog on.. if you go to them with hundreds of thousands though, they'll actually listen because that potential customer base is nothing to ignore as it equates to a lot more than just a subscription, you can almost guarantee if they did make a Vanilla server it would still have the cash shop active for mount sales and pet sales, i'd imagine they'd also implement pet battles into Vanilla servers for that exact reason.

 

[Raven]

and people would bitch and moan its not vanilla.

 

[Deebs]

and people would bitch and moan its not vanilla.

The users of Nost have not been bitching, instead they have been enjoying something they really like.

 

[Raven]

Yeah I know but if they introduced pet battles or store mounts the forums would go into meltdown over the tears of anguish.

 

[Deebs]

Yeah I know but if they introduced pet battles or store mounts the forums would go into meltdown over the tears of anguish.

So they should leave it up to the guys working on content without dumbing down shit, ie the Nost staff. Not everyone (including me) wanted fucking pet battles. I miss the class missions, I miss the kiting the boss to some city, I miss MC, I miss the fact that to take down an elite I had to be in a group. The truth is that WoW has been dumbed down to increase the profit.

 

[Moriath]

Using some of their code back end means they didnt have a leg to stand on then.

Well lets see. But i wouldnt hold my breath.

 

[BloodOmen]

Petition is now at 203,000 - still chugging a long quite nicely.

 

[fettoken]

Well the server backend is emulated which I believe is not illegal. If the server operators do not distribute or link to the compatible clients then I fail to see how they have broken any TOS/EULA if they have never installed the client. It is all moot as Nost decided to pull the plug along with their hosts as they did not want the risk of the legal battle. The point is this, private servers are still popping up all over the place and will continue to do so. The server backend MangOS is not under any threat and has been chugging along for 11 years.

The same happened to RuneScape, they embraced it and now earn revenue from the "legacy" servers which seem to be more popular than the recent stuff.

So, let's see if Blizzard decide to respond to the petition, either with a yes or no and what actions they are going to take.

ps. Nost have stated they should be in a position to release their source around the 30th April dependant on receiving responses or not from interested parties.

It's basically the same argument 'ThePirateBay' founders argued for when they went to trial. They just presented a platform for which users could upload their torrents. Still, they got jail-time nonetheless. I'm not saying you are wrong Deebs, because the judge in that case were bought as hell, since she/she sat in the board for the lobbyists that represented the movie/music companies (Universal(What a fucking bunch of cunts)).

Just saying, a judge probably wouldn't see it the fairly crass and extremely objective way you put it.

 

[BloodOmen]

Mark Kern,

WoW! You guys did it! 200k signatures to bring back Legacy WoW.
I can't believe all the support you've shown for vanilla WoW servers. In the past few days you've all doubled the Nostalrius petition count and smashed through the 200,000 signature goal.

Thank you.

Now its time for me to get to work and put together a package to deliver to Mike Morhaime. Here's what I'm doing:

1) Printing the petition. All 5000 pages of it.

2) Writing an open letter to Mike, and sharing it with the community.

3) Shooting a video of the open letter and uploading it to @SodaPoppinTv's channel

4) E-mailing the whole thing to Mike on Friday and making the letter/video public on Friday as well.

5) Following up on Monday with a call to Mike on his cell and office.

I want to thank @SodaPoppingTv for being so passionate and doing the WoW stream to publicize this. I want to thank @Nostalbegins for taking the time to Skype with me and show me what a great bunch of devs they are, and thanks for everyone on my feed and following me @Grummz for all the moral support and tweets.

But...Especially, thank you petition signers! Thank you vanilla WoW fans! Thank you for supporting this petition and for playing and loving vanilla and early WoW so damn much! YOU did this! YOU can make it happen. And I'll be there right alongside you.

For the Alliance, for the Horde, for Azeroth!

 

[Embattle]

It'll do nothing, all this chat about whether something is technically legal or not is moot since do those involved really want to tangle with Blizzard/Activision.