world first - order king down on k8p

[dee777]

so if the zones didnt start to lock untill 8-9AM.

when exactly did you start to take the keeps and BO's?

must have been a hour or two prior to that

so at the very latest 7 AM, on a weekend?

still dont wanna call it AC?

and no, staying up all night don't count

A destro guy at the WHA forums claims, that the actual process started at 4 am. If that is ACing or not is debatable, but doesnt change anything anyway. The game favors zerging, so it is only logical that people play that way.

IMO the only one to blame here is Mythic for bad endgame design and breaking a concept that was developed and tested over years.

 

[Faeldawn]

and the first thing that would die would be the healers, and when they are dead theres fuck all the rest of the raid can do

a few players are smarter then a AI, it wouldn't work unfortunately.

Fixed

 

[GReaper]

Looks like you've got a special congratulations from Mythic: Game First: Karl Franz Defeated!

 

[Ctuchik]

lol..

and almost exactly on schedule with our predictions!

read: DAMN! already?!?

 

[bobfish]

Congrats.

Why did they drop the relic system?

 

[scorge]

Looks like you've got a special congratulations from Mythic: Game First: Karl Franz Defeated!

Are Mythic saying grats for beta testing franz and will fix it for next time....

 

[Blake]

nice

I'm saddened by the way things seem to be going in WAR atm... so much so that yesterday I took a page from Mark Jacob's book and spent a couple of hours composing my own thoughts into a Bluesky's "State of the (End)Game" thread on GOA's forums.

It kinda sums up how a lot of the game feels atm but also has some hopes for WAR's future. Now let's just hope Mythic and GOA listen to their customers before it's too late.

Verry nice post and i have to admit , they should grant you some space in mythic developpers team imo ....

I admire they way you made work of it all and the effort u put in to think it all over to imrove etcetc.. but.. and now comes the "but"

I wonder why we didn't see this post any sooner ...

thats all....

 

[Rayko]

well played! *cough*
no seriously, well done but the way it's been done...
wonder if you'd reach the same on a balanced server

fix endgame and server balance, call it QQ whatever

 

[Gahn]

Verry nice post and i have to admit , they should grant you some space in mythic developpers team imo ....

I admire they way you made work of it all and the effort u put in to think it all over to imrove etcetc.. but.. and now comes the "but"

I wonder why we didn't see this post any sooner ...

thats all....

Stop trolling and be bad at it tbh -.-

 

[Belisar]

Bluesky's "State of the (End)Game" thread on GOA's forums.

Nice one - I like it.

 

[Ctuchik]

Bluesky's "State of the (End)Game" thread on GOA's forums.

heh.

Add new mobs to oRvR lakes (maybe in uncontested zones with no bolster buff but granting additional xp) and maybe some special mobs with unique drops or crafting components.

yes more PVE is sure gonna help!

it was an interesting read up untill i read that. then it dawned on me that he doesent have a clue and is just in it for the whines.

 

[Cylian]

For many years, I thought you were roleplaying a troll Ctuchik

But what does mobs in a frontier mean? Mobs with a "frontier" bonus would be a mean to level faster at the risk of having to fight other players. That'd be expers vs. invaders (gankers if you prefer). Throw in people to defend the expers and you can add invaders vs. defenders. Throw in the usual gank squads and zergs and you get a frontier with everything from pve over small scale RvR to zergs.
One of the best parts of DAoC if I may remind you.

The current sandboxes are way too small for that though.

 

[Grotnob]

I've read the state of endgame thread, and there's some interesting and well thought out points raised.

I'm not going to go on about AC raiding, because frankly, getting up before your enemy is one of the oldest military tactics in the book. I'm not going to go on about zerging, because frankly, outnumbering your enemy pre-dates getting up before them by a sizeable chunk. What I am going to mention is that we are playing a game where failure not being punished is supposedly a core design rule, yet when it comes down to it, if you lose a city fight, for whatever reason, you are penalised, and will probably continue to lose city fights as a result.

To my mind, and I'm sure I've said this before, WAR is fundamentally flawed in its design because it is possible to win through out-gearing your opposite realm, and crushing their morale. All that is necessary for this to happen is for a city to be raided for a couple of weeks on the trot. By this stage, the raiding realm will have better gear, and much higher morale (will to play) than the raided realm, and the losing realm is now going to really struggle to pull it back.

I'm not averse to a challenge, or trying to beat the odds, but there comes a point where you're so outclassed by your opponent that it's just not worth paying to play. A Rourke's Drift mentality is great, but when the Zulus are packing M16s and you're still cracking away with your Enfield rifled percussion musket, it's suddenly not so much fun any more.

My subs run out in early May, because I rather foolishly paid for three months last sub period. The way I see it, there's nothing in the up-coming patches that's going to improve the current situation or spark my interest in playing, and I know for damned sure I'm not alone. My guild leader's quit, as have the vast majority of the admittedly quite small active playerbase so of an evening, there's maybe one or two players active as opposed to 10-15.

We've already seen the "temporary measure" where those less than R37 get kicked out of fortress defence/assaults. Now, with the keep upgrade system we're seeing even more exclusivity introduced into the game - you can claim a keep, but you can only upgrade it if you're GR37 or above, meaning the vast majority of the players (being those who are in small guilds, or unguilded) don't get to play that game at all when it comes in, and aren't likely to for months, if not years. What's more, the upgrades ramp up as you aproach GR40, so by the time you can gain maximum benefit from claiming a keep, you're pretty much already capped guild rank and have no real need of the bonus xp income.

So, we've upgraded a keep, doubled the guard pats, all the guards are champions, etc. Is that making for a more challenging fight, or is it merely necessitating a bigger zerg in order to flatten the keep, and making people even less likely to attack a keep that has player defenders?

Meh, tbh.

 

[eksdee]

I've read the state of endgame thread, and there's some interesting and well thought out points raised.

I'm not going to go on about AC raiding, because frankly, getting up before your enemy is one of the oldest military tactics in the book. I'm not going to go on about zerging, because frankly, outnumbering your enemy pre-dates getting up before them by a sizeable chunk. What I am going to mention is that we are playing a game where failure not being punished is supposedly a core design rule, yet when it comes down to it, if you lose a city fight, for whatever reason, you are penalised, and will probably continue to lose city fights as a result.

To my mind, and I'm sure I've said this before, WAR is fundamentally flawed in its design because it is possible to win through out-gearing your opposite realm, and crushing their morale. All that is necessary for this to happen is for a city to be raided for a couple of weeks on the trot. By this stage, the raiding realm will have better gear, and much higher morale (will to play) than the raided realm, and the losing realm is now going to really struggle to pull it back.

.

so getting up early is all fine and dandy because the military did it, but out-gearing people is a game flaw? remind of how many wars the side with inferior technology came out on top?

people should be rewarded for their time invested into the game, and like it or not gear is one of those rewards. on the other hand, i really do not believe that gear is that much of an issue in war. i started actively playing this game in an rvr capacity at rr40 when most of my guild was rr60+, fighting the best guilds on the server who were also well geared and higher rr. while it definitely HELPS to have better gear, there is no reason why you can't compete with lesser gear. this game is definitely less dependent on the 'perfect' gear setup than DAoC and WoW.

meaning the vast majority of the players (being those who are in small guilds, or unguilded) don't get to play that game at all when it comes in, and aren't likely to for months, if not years

our guild has 13 active members. we are gr40. it is nothing to do with the size of a guild, xp is purely based on the activity of its members.

while i agree this game has some flaws, i think half the problem a lot of the time is the unwillingness of players to bite the bullet and fight against the odds. i preferred k8p when order dominated because there was way more action, but the majority of casual players (that now zerg their hearts out and give it large on the forums about how they 'dominate' order) quit during that time or rerolled on another server. there is always a way to beat the odds, even it is small victories in the grand scheme of things. at the end of the day playing games is about fun, imo people spend too much of their time whinging and not enough trying to make their own fun.

 

[Grotnob]

The larger of the two factors mentioned is Morale. Gear is a factor, but as you said in the second part of your post, if the losing side has been whipped to the point where they're leaving, can't be arsed to fight, whatever, then the winning side is going to out-gear and outnumber the losing side's fighters. I don't think we're in as much disagreement as you may think, Eksdee.

On your point about wars being lost by the side with better equipment, I can think of a few off the top of my head, but generally the other side had numerical advantage, better logistics, and were fighting on home ground. Of the very, very few I can think of where the winning side had both inferior gear and inferior numbers, they were able to employ guerilla tactics on supply lines, and blend into the populace afterwards. I'm not sure there's much of a parallel to be drawn between that and WAR, where there's no populace to blend into, and the enemy respawns when you kill it so there's no real supply lines to disrupt. Maybe I've missed something.

 

[Hawkwind]

Where did you ask to do this when order was outnumbering destruction on K8P in a 3-1 balance lol ?

U forgot the days and evenings when destruction could not even move an inch out a warcamp without getting all the O mF G ubha guilds steamrolling them , Bc , tBc , Rg , Defiance, team conclave , etcetcetc .

U forgot ALL the weekends when destruction was forced to only 1 thing , defending their IC?????????

No I did not forget a thing! I was playing on karak Orrud but that died before I reached 40 on any char. Guild moved to Hirn and that had only T4 action. So I finally rerolled to K8P in Dec. Only just got my first T4 char ready for RvR. So, my only experience of T4 RvR in this game is against an enemy with 3 times our numbers.

Gratz to destro , and if u all wanne quit because u Sacrificed ur King well then do so .. proove ur a Loooooser !

About all you proved to me is what a childish dick you are! A few less pricks like you in the game and it would be alot better off for it.

People are worried about the server, is that such a bad thing! People want the game to go from strength to strength and last along time. It its current state that simply won't happen.

I had a day off work today, logged in 10 am local time in Dubai (7 am UK) Nearly 2 WB's of destro locking down DW and Praag. In DW, Destro actually controlled lower tier of the Order WC stopping people from using the Flight Master there. Shining Fortress was taken just after midday. About 1.5 WBs defending and three plus attacking.

 

[Belisar]

There is always a way to beat the odds, even it is small victories in the grand scheme of things. at the end of the day playing games is about fun, imo people spend too much of their time whinging and not enough trying to make their own fun.

That could be a fair statement I am not sure. I wonder what thoughts or ideas you have that order should be following to make it "fun" or is it just a question of mentality (it is after all easy to be defeatist once you have lost).

I am not into T4 yet, though not far off. From what I have read there are more active RvR players for destro than order (thus superior numbers). There are more players willing or able to be on line at differing times and can thus take whatever objectives they like in an easier fashion (I make no judgement on the value or otherwise of so called AC raids). When Order players come on line they are immediately on the defensive and struggle to take back what has been taken earlier (numbers and equipment come into play).

I make no personal judgements on T4 as I have not been there. For me this thread has been an interesting read with differing points of view but I would like some meat on the bones.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

The numbers issue is simply compounded by the lack of long-term ranged AoE CC in WAR (e.g. mezz, casted aoe root, aoe stun etc from DAoC) - in DAoC numbers weren't the be all and end all because there were wildly differing specialisations (whereas war's different trees still grant base abilities at moderate damage/healing/tankage) and long-term CC used by a well played battlegroup/group could be used to handle vastle superior numbers (hell our group wasn't even that good and we could handle 2fg of random players with our 1fg because we used the CC properly.

They either need to introduce proper CC lines to several classes and remove many of the base abilities, or drastically boost the CC durations. Neither of which is good with the low TTK on many classes.

 

[Gahn]

This is the today's history of a poor soul who logged at lunch and wanted some action "away from the zerg".
Login at 12:15 say hi in g chat and open map:

Empire - Chaos T4: all red bar Reikland on 15 mins timer to get locked.
High Elves - Dark Elves T4: all red bar Eataine on 2 mins timer to get locked.
Dwarfs - GreenSkins T4: all red bar Kadrin Valley on 10 mins timer to get locked.

Fly to Eataine, check wc: 8-12 Order players against an entire Wb of Destro camping WarCamp to lock the zone.
Grab a bthrower, shoot 5 mins just to bother the Healers in backlines and drawing the #1 Who cares conclusion.

Fly to Reikland, seems quite, exit wc and go to do the usual (since it's FUCKING all time Destro) guard pull on WH keep to try and lure out some soloers. Pops a Sorc (with a Bg guard) and raze me (caught by surprise).
Nm rinse and repeat (this time i get the Sorc pants down) BUT this time is clear the 2 morons got some1 grouped inside keep with aoe group heal on macro afk.
3rd time: avoid em and get near Destro warcamp; a lonely BG jump me while i was venting on Irc, i get back and start to beat him down, when the situation gest reverted and he starts to lose, he legs it back to WarCamp, drawing the #2 Who cares conclusion.

Meanwhile Destro locks Eataine and get Shining Way in like 10 mins, and by now they are surely inside Altdorf doing God knows what.

No matter what you do in this game it seems impossible (or at least too much time consuming) finding anything decent and or fair to do.
It's either zerg, use cheap tactics to win at any cost and or just outright griefing the most out of the others.

I already do miss the climax we got at the very start (with all the bitching and shit but at least there were decent people) and mind ya, it's only 6 months ago not 6 years like Daoc.

I guess the last sentence pretty much sums it up.

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Stuff

That is the story of almost every day i've played in ORvR for the last 3 weeks sadly.

 

[rynnor]

I think the big mistake is for Mythic to code it so that the losing city drops in rank - once the opposition have raided your city once sucessfully you can bet they'll be back.

Once that starts happening the downside for the losing side is steep - they end up rank 1 with no city dungeons, regular lockouts and spending most of their time defending the city in ever dwindling numbers.

As you say Mythic made a big mistake in that this is a war that can actually be won - you can devastate the opposition to the point they either quit or flee to another server.

Its a hollow victory though since you also destroy any fun from rvr...

 

[Ctuchik]

For many years, I thought you were roleplaying a troll Ctuchik

damn, busted :<

 

[Ctuchik]

But what does mobs in a frontier mean? Mobs with a "frontier" bonus would be a mean to level faster at the risk of having to fight other players. That'd be expers vs. invaders (gankers if you prefer). Throw in people to defend the expers and you can add invaders vs. defenders. Throw in the usual gank squads and zergs and you get a frontier with everything from pve over small scale RvR to zergs.
One of the best parts of DAoC if I may remind you.

The current sandboxes are way too small for that though.

all that is what were supposedly gonna get Darkness Falls 2 for.

the rvr lakes are way to small to have something like we had in DaoC. where there WAS "safe:ish spots" to level up in. its impossible to do that in these rvr lakes.

they will have to make rvr areas thats just as big, if not bigger then the pve areas for that to be viable.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I've got a soap box to stand on. It just happens to be shaped like a disc. The speech is relatively short:

City sieges are not sieges. They are PQs where one side or the other usually decides to leave. They are very lackluster, they are badly programmed, they are badly conceived. Time for Mythic to bite the bullet and redo them from the ground up. Having the reward of all that RvR to be switching off RvR for the duration of the later stages is so wildly stupid it beggars belief in a game which has its main endgame focus as oRvR with a few other bits tacked on.


Make cities oRvR areas divided into 4 zones, 1 for each tier so all levels of player can RvR in them. Make the boss encounters in instances for people that really want to PvE. The rest of us can get on with beating the snot out of each other in a cool zone that only opens up when one side gets there. Have a queing system so that there are an approximately even number of people on each side allowed into each RvR zone within the city but as many as want to can go PvE the Boss encounters in various instances. Make the city like Praag's design but on a bigger scale, with architecture appropriate to the owning side and with funky buildings that actually do something (magic quarters where wierd stuff happens, floating buildings that have been destroyed in the siege and unleashed strange things).

And someone FINALLY allow us to put people into catapults to throw them around the city just like in the original trailer. You could even have this as the queing mechanism.

 

[Cadelin]

And someone FINALLY allow us to put people into catapults to throw them around the city just like in the original trailer. You could even have this as the queing mechanism.

Awesome suggestion!

 

[Bluesky]

I admire they way you made work of it all and the effort u put in to think it all over to imrove etcetc.. but.. and now comes the "but"

I wonder why we didn't see this post any sooner ...

In all honestly I guess I hadn't been frustrated enough with the game until I saw the results of a "sacked" capital to actually spend time writing my (End)Game thread.

"Crippled" may have been a bit harsh but when your king is defeated you lose a few things from your capital that affect a LOT of ppl:

• No access to the Kings chambers so a LOT of quests cannot be picked up OR completed (several epic weapon quests, keep banners, and some misc std xp quests).
• No access to (or progression in) Lost Vale for anyone who hasn't been before as the quest which lets you progress has be to picked up from the Elf King
• No access to Sigmar's Hammer via walk in (you can port in but have no reason to - see below)
• No access to the special guild vendor so no more port scrolls (port back to capital or port to dungeon scrolls) or special crafting components
• No access to the capitals 2nd flight master
• No access to the properly organised (2 per corner) renown gear merchants - you can use the ones in market square but there are some missing iirc.
• No access to Warpblade or Skaven Tunnels dungeon (needs city lev2)
• No access to Temple of Sigmar dungeon (needs city lev3)
• Both the above mean no raids for Sentinel gear but more importantly no raids available to actually xp the city fast. The low level Sewers dungeon is open at lev1 but mobs are lev13-18.
• No PQ's available for exp'ers.

yes more PVE is sure gonna help!

it was an interesting read up untill i read that. then it dawned on me that he doesent have a clue and is just in it for the whines.

How did you xp your char(s)? Some ppl like the added fun factor of faster xp with added risk rather than the exceptional dullness of grinding quests and PQ's so I still feel it's a viable option.

If I dont have a clue then why did you find the first 75% of my thread "interesting"? My thread was to an extent a whine but then you could consider most feedback whine in that case. My intention was to show to Mythic/GOA how I (and many others) feel the game is atm hence the constructive feedback.

A Rourke's Drift mentality is great, but when the Zulus are packing M16s and you're still cracking away with your Enfield rifled percussion musket, it's suddenly not so much fun any more.

Nice analogy - made me smile

I think the big mistake is for Mythic to code it so that the losing city drops in rank - once the opposition have raided your city once sucessfully you can bet they'll be back.

There's no doubt Destro are trying to do it again 24/7 on K8P. Hopefully the next time an enemy king comes under siege Mythic will have fixed the CC issue (now it's been successfully beta tested ) so its a bit tougher than an LV boss to kill

stuff...

Totally agree and it's needed sooner rather than later or it really will be "too little, too late"

And someone FINALLY allow us to put people into catapults to throw them around the city just like in the original trailer. You could even have this as the queing mechanism.

That could be fun and a lot better than this "pick lock" ability all melee dps chars get atm

 

[mooSe_]

And someone FINALLY allow us to put people into catapults to throw them around the city just like in the original trailer. You could even have this as the queing mechanism.

To make it fit in with lore:
- orcs/gobbos get catapulted over the wall in a hilarious manner
- dwarfs get some kind of gyrocopter thing to drop them off
- chaos could have some kind of magic teleport portal thing where they travel through the realm of chaos and come out on the other side of the wall
- dark elves could either have a similar magic system to the chaos one or could have harpies or something that flies to drop them off
- high elves could have a great eagle or use the dwarfs gyrocopters (although they wouldn't be happy about it)
- empire could also use the dwarfs gyrocopters or they could have some kind of flying creature (griffon or something?)

I say this because it wouldn't make sense that for example a dwarf iron breaker would agree to being put in a catapult.

 

[Ctuchik]

How did you xp your char(s)? Some ppl like the added fun factor of faster xp with added risk rather than the exceptional dullness of grinding quests and PQ's so I still feel it's a viable option.

like i said later. we get darkness falls 2 soon. so adding pve mobs to the orvr lakes isnt gonna help. and the orvr lakes are STILL way to small for this. there will never be anywhere even remotely safe to level in, even DF in daoc were safer then the orvr lakes would be if they implemented a load of pve mobs.

u'd never get any pve'ing done because EVERYONE would see where ppl were pve'ing. it doesent take more then 2 - 3 minutes to go through a orvr lake on a mount, and maybe 5 - 6 without.

 

[dee777]

The numbers issue is simply compounded by the lack of long-term ranged AoE CC in WAR (e.g. mezz, casted aoe root, aoe stun etc from DAoC) - in DAoC numbers weren't the be all and end all because there were wildly differing specialisations (whereas war's different trees still grant base abilities at moderate damage/healing/tankage) and long-term CC used by a well played battlegroup/group could be used to handle vastle superior numbers (hell our group wasn't even that good and we could handle 2fg of random players with our 1fg because we used the CC properly.

They either need to introduce proper CC lines to several classes and remove many of the base abilities, or drastically boost the CC durations. Neither of which is good with the low TTK on many classes.

While thats true, that is only half of the story IMO. Long time CC would not have worked the very decent way it did against zergs if DAoC would have had WARs collision detection. The only way to defend a choke point from a zerg was insane damage, because everyone that wanted in just slipped thru.

Just for the record, I like the introduction of body blocking and I think with knockbacks and pullins there are ways to counter it, bringing a new layer of tactics into the game. However I dont think changing stuns/knockdowns from 2-3 to 10 and roots from 10 to 40 seconds will help to the extent we ve witnessed in DAoC. Of course it would level the playingfield to a degree, I ll gladly give you that.

BTW, bringing back mezzzZZZ on the ranged dps classes might be a decent way to soften the blow of non-overlapping AoEs in 1.21. Yes, I agree AoE damage is outta line, no need to tell me, but I d be seriously surprised if you dont see a decrease in rpds and an increase in mdps post patch.

 

[Pandemic]

Apperantly destruction managed to take a capital this time, and from my experience its impossible to do it the PVE way , seen thaty before when BC and tBC tried to farm destro's guardspawn from minute 1 till end of the times, and moving out instances once they get real opponents .

What real opponents I'm in BC and still havent really met any on KEP. I stayed solo vs 48 dest in once instance in the IC and farmed them for 2-3 hours. Completed a load of murder event kill tasks doing that

BC dont leave instances because of real opponents we leave to try and find some