Wild Power vs Mastery of Magery

[old.Odysseus]

I am trying to do some calculations to see which of these 2 add the most average damage, and how far apart they are.
Feel free to point out errors or augment the calculations.


Average base damage: BD
Base crit chance : BC (10%)
Total damage : TD
Damage modifiers (from MoM) : DM (3%)
Crit modifier (from WP) : CM (5%)
Average crit in pve : AC (25%)

Taking MoM 1 gives this total damage average:
TD = (BD+BC*AC)*(1+DM) = (BD+10%*25%)*1.03=1.05575 * BD

Taking WP 1 gives:
TD = (BD+(BC+CM)*AC) = (BD+(10%+5%)*25%)= 1.0375 * BD

Having none of these gives:
TD = (BD+BC*AC) = (BD + 10%*25%) = 1.025 * BD

So in conclusion this gives:
WP increase = 1.0375 / 1.025 = 1.012 = 1.2% increas in avg. damage
MoM increase = 1.05575 / 1.025 = 1.03 = 3% increase (duh )

It is obvious that the marginal effect of WP can be better than MoM, but on average it is less than half as effective.

-Input please

 

[Novamir]

rofl at the geek with his maths!!112354

 

[old.ST200]

1) geek



WP can mean one DD less to kill something. MoM doesn't normally mean casting less spells, so WP is better, regardless of overall damage (since you mostly "overkill" people anyway).

 

[old.Odysseus]

thx for the contructive comments.
shows only one thing: was too complicated for u to understand.

as for using one less nuke that is probably right. what i am trying to determine is the value and relative gain of putting points into those two.
average damage seems the direct approach to that.

 

[Qte Eth]

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/j.massa/MoMvsWP.htm
kk?

 

[old.Odysseus]

ohhhh nice link <reading>

<done reading>
Seems from that link that it is roughly as suspected: MoM gives more average damage and gives higher return per point spent.

ofc it makes no sense to take MoM3 (10 points) and WP0, these should be balanced with overweight to MoM.
MoM3 / WP2 seems ideal for the average RP holder.

This is again based on average damage, as casters do not have the ability to predict crits.

 

[k9awya]

mom is shit

mom 3 would mean what, 9% dmg increase

average kill for dark runie would be like 3 nukes of say 480

say 130 damage more overall from mom



averagely (more times than not) i would crit on that target with wild power 3. this crit would always be above 130




so wp is better, a little extra damage is nice in rvr, but crits are overpowered when they happen, and they always happen with wp 3.

experience over mathematics, yep

cunt

 

[old.Odysseus]

a crit in rvr does 1-50% more damage (im not sure about the 1%, seems there is a tendency towards the higher end, might be 15-50% or so).

The average extra damage from a crit is very important for these calculations, but even if it was a fixed 50%, MoM would still do more damage on average.

9% damage increase on a cap of 6xx is quite a lot when all the mods are factored in.

WP3 will give you excactly 25% chance of critting, as you see both from Qte's link and my calculations, that chance is too litlle to outdo MoM, again based on average damage.

I see 2 issues:
a) What is the correct average damage on crits in RvR, I suspect it to be higher than 25% and know it is lower than 50%.
b) Are there any other approaches to this than average damage over time.

 

[k9awya]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus
9% damage increase on a cap of 6xx is quite a lot when all the mods are factored in.

i dont hit the cap ever

if i had 10 targets line up, i would prolly crit on more than 6 of them


mom dosent make enough difference, 9% of 700 lets call it 70 dmg on the cap for arguements sake, or 35 dmg in reality


i dont care what ther numbers say cause i dont crit exactly 1 in 4 its random, but if anything i crit a lot more than 1 in 4 nukes, at least 1 in 3 or better on a good night

 

[k9awya]

just to add i cant remember ever critting for less than 150

 

[old.Odysseus]

I suggest you look a little better on the link Qte posted.
It clearly shows that MoM gives higher average damage bonus than WP.
Only prob with the link is that it doesnt show the sample size. If its an average of 10 casts it will be very unprecise, 100 casts per permutation would be really good (and timeconsuming).

My cap on yellows is 454. Deduct my 6% from MoM 2 and I would do 426 instead. Yes, I hit that cap a lot.

Just today I have done crits of 113, 117 and 123 - all around 25% of my cap. (Those were the 3 crits i happened to remember).

 

[old.Atrox]

MoM raise the overall dmg, not only the cap.
Get MoM before WP then you'll probably gain more from WP


and higher dmg on every single hit are more worth then a random crit IMO

 

[old.Wildfire]

Doesn't take many RPs to get both... so why bother with all the maths?

 

[old.Xanthian]

MoC owns both
I have MoM2 and WP1, and tbh i do really notice the difference.
Going for WP2 next then MoM3..

Will report back when i have another 300k RP

 

[old.Wildfire]

< WP 3 + MoM 2, considering MoM 3

 

[old.Leel]

IMO, the extra chance to crit is worth more, because it can mean one shot less to kill. I'd do WP1, MOM 1, WP 2, MOM 2, WP 3 then MOM 3 in that order.

 

[Archeon]

lol, i was just wondering why your all getting so bitchy about this (besides the fact your casters )

you can get both you know, and with a higher cap that means you crits do more dmg so i really don't see what the fuss is about unless your talking about which to get 1st.

and don't flame the guy for having some brains, sombody has to fix my TV when it gets broken

 

[Tilda]

just wondering, Can Cabalists get WP, or not because i have prerequsited but its not in my RA list, or is it next patch?

Tilda

 

[Tyka]

got mom4 wp3, works great in groups, now get someone to debuff cold dmg and 25% crit on top of that, yummy, 1 shot tanks sometimes

 

[old.Odysseus]

tyka go respec realm and get something useless like lifter or tireless and crap, your nukes are pissannoying

I have been noting my crits today. they tend to be between 100 and 150, never above 200, centered around 125.

This leads me to believe that the range of crits in rvr is 20-50%, could be a normal distribution, could be uniform. either way, average crit damage will be around 35%.

This changes the calculations a bit:

Taking MoM 1 gives this total damage average:
TD = (BD+BC*AC)*(1+DM) = (BD+10%*35%)*1.03=1.06605 * BD

Taking WP 1 gives:
TD = (BD+(BC+CM)*AC) = (BD+(10%+5%)*35%)= 1.0525 * BD

Having none of these gives:
TD = (BD+BC*AC) = (BD + 10%*35%) = 1.035 * BD

Base: 100%
WP 1: 101,69%
MoM 1: 103,00%

Now if anyone can be arsed, do similar calculations for all possible permutations of WP/MoM. I am quite sure that it will show that the average gain/point is highest by taking MoM at least one level higher than WP.

Taking MoM to 5 and leaving WP at 0 is a silly waste of points, but I suspect that having MoM 2 levels higher is optimal when WP reaches level 2.

This apparent disparity comes from the assumption that MoM affects crit damage, which seems reasonable.

More calculations will follow tomorrow.

 

[Qte Eth]

hm how can math be wrong i wonder?
also id like to know what are crits 10-50,15-50 or what
also ur crits are too spread and yes sometimes u get fun crits but sometimes u dont
and noone here said wp sux -there is a best way to spread ur rspts on the first graph if u dont like it its urs choice

 

[k9awya]

of course math can be wrong

when dual wielding in midgard a 16.1dps axe out damages a 16.5 in the right hand, over time.

these numbers are not maths, because you cant control them to the variance they have

25% of the time crit?

bullshit i nuked someone 3 times and got 3 crits, thats 100%

tho mom will never vary that much, you dont do 100% more dmg with mom or anything, its always 3,6,9,12,15? % etc.

which is why wp, mom wont do enough damage to make me kill in less nukes, wp will

mom is useless

 

[K0nah]

tbh i just see MoM as countermeasures to AoM. few if anyone will have AoM III, most will have AoM I, a few will have AoM II. So MoM III and u start to get into the bonus dmg area. Kinda pales into insignificance next to hibs current 20% bonus tho dont it

WP is kool cos it affects all your spells bar dots, if ur only a DD'er it prolly isnt a priority, but when u can bolt for 648 and crit for 643 it makes a difference. Also increases chance to crit on an aoe, and when u hitting 10+ ppl at a time u see alot more crits

 

[Tleilax]

very interesting thread indeed. I went for mom2, next up is wp

 

[old.Odysseus]

but when u can bolt for 648 and crit for 643

wont happen. crits in rvr are limited to 50% max.

From the previous calculations I can only conclude one thing:
MoM is double value for the money on level 1 compared to WP.

Remember that if you get WP on level 3 and MoM on level 0 (extreme example), you will crit 25% instead of 10%.
The average damage will be:

WP : TD = TD = (BD+(BC+CM)*AC) = (BD+(10%+15%)*35%)= 1.0875 * BD

The normal damage will be 1.035 as before, giving a total of 5.07% extra average damage for the 10 points spent. thats 0.5% per point.

MoM 3 would give 9% or 0.9% per point spent (average).

What is needed now is a mathemathical formulation of what k9 is saying, how often does the crit close the battle saving you a cast, how big is this influence etc etc.

I suspect that with average crits of 35% happening even 25% of the time this crit will not be a determining factor - but I have no calculations on it yet.

Ofc you can get lucky and crit 3 times in a row - but then again u might get unlucky and not crit once in 20 casts - thats randomness and perfectly acceptable, which is why average damage is a good measure.

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus

wont happen. crits in rvr are limited to 50% max.

With the exception of zerkers in hamster mode mind you

 

[old.Odysseus]

nerf zerkers! some moronic zerker splattered me all over yesterday: 818 + 1xx + 799 in 4 seconds. was fun though

ah well off topic

 

[exc_hib_boo]

Originally posted by old.Niljindil


With the exception of zerkers in hamster mode mind you

Zerker crits are also 1-50% and completely random between 1 and 50%) in rvr. In PvE its still 1-99%. This was changed a long time a go. In hamster mode they do crit on every hit though.

 

[oblivion_6]

I havent tried MoM but i got WP for my eld a wee while back and the difference is massive

When i start of my pull out of say 5 kills 3 of em will have a critical hit on either one of the bolts, this critical is usually 110-150% that of the actual first hit and usually means 1 DD will drop the mop

Also this is great for solo as it saves you having to go through the usual 4 or 5 spells for each orange as you can kill them in 3 if one crits

 

[old.Odysseus]

WP is excellent in PvE as it does up to 100% extra damage. In RvR (which is the focus of this thread), it maxes at 50%, with an average of around 35%.