Why to nerf stealth :)

[Molten Lava]

Ok just visited the great page:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/simo.tukiainen/daocstats/

Top 10 average RP's per class....

Ranger 392 735
Scout 360 210
Shadowblade 327 371
Infiltrator 321 786
Minstrel 264 654
Hunter 247 237
Nightshade 242 755
Skald 199 112
Runemaster 169 670
Bard 168 559

Mmmm how much off these can stealth? I dont mind being surprised once in a while by something I didnt see comming, but its aboslutely no fun if you get killed 100 times by things you cant even see.....Heard Thid is ruled by Stealth nowadays too maybe GOA has to open a special stealth server? Or allow a max number of stealthers per realm, otherwise we'll have 99% stealthers in all realms by the time we reach patch 1.53 (some stealth-nerf in there right?)

Nuff said: nerf stealth

 

[Molten Lava]

Yes

And yes....I did start a scout too lately just to be sure I can play the game if GOÁ continues with not nerfing stealth....I'll be glad to remove my scout if playing other chars is fun again...untill then I'll lvl my scout I guess

 

[Molten Lava]

Solution

In all threads people who play stealth are whining that they are so damn hard to lvl. So the solution will be...give them some uber stats in PvE so they can take the uber stuff (stealth) away in RvR so we can all get RP's

Think Mythic should make more use of the possibilities to change things in PvE and not in RvR and vice versa. Thats one of the reasons the invented RA's right?

So make PvE-hard-to-level classes easier to level in PvE and take some of the uberness away from them in RvR (like they will do with sorcs soon

 

[Brannor McThife]

<yawns>
:sleeping:

Nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf

:sleeping:

You should be asking rather for other classes to learn to handle stealth better. People whined about archers being able to 1-shot and escape too easily, so they introduced see hidden. No matter what you say, assassins need to get up close and personal. And if you're a caster that's stupid enough to sit without some form of stealth defense, it's your own fault for gifting them the easy RP's.

AND, in the next patch, they destealth every time, so they have it REALLY hard. Lone casters running around frontiers are just asking to donate their RP's.



-G

 

[Flimgoblin]

Already happening Molten...

See Hidden, no more one-shot-stay-stealthed.

Does a lot to help things.
Assassins are still gits... but there's counters to them in groups.

 

[Danya]

Ever thought that maybe the higher RPs are due to the type of players that play the classes and not due to the class being uber? It may be that stealth classes have an average RvR time twice as high as other classes, your statsistic doesn't show this. As they say, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. You can draw almost nothing from one number, so to base class altering changes on something as rough as average RPs over the top 100 players is complete garbage.

Nerf the nerf-whiners!

 

[old.chesnor]

Dannyn, the argument about stealthers RvRing 2x as much as other classes is silly. The reason they RvR twice as much as other classes is because they can stealth, derr!!

And Brannor, as for "asking for other classes to handle stealth better". Please tell exactly how we are expected to do this. Tell me exactly what someone can do when exiting thier realm gate when its camped by an invisible, undetectable foe? If that foe were a non-stealther it would be easy, keep your distance, report location to friends etc.. In the case of stealthers, you eat dirt, then say meekly in gc "enemy stealther at Yggdra gates". By then its too late. In reality the only way to counter a camping stealther is with another stealther. How annoying.

Mythic have kinda messed stealth up. They nerfed archers (a justified nerf, but over the top) by giving the other primary stealth class See Hidden. So rather than archers ruling supreme in RvR, we will now have Assassins.

I don't want to see assassins get nerfed, but I think assassins getting See Hidden is wrong. Not because See Hidden is overpowered, but because it is overpowered in the hands of other stealthers. Should be given to other classes that dont get a great time in RvR, summoned pet classes maybe.

 

[Molten Lava]

Another proposal then

Give all weak-armor classes (read: casters) at some stage (RR5??) the ability to see hidden for 60 seconds. Put it on a 10 minute timer (or 30 even) so casters have to use it in a strategic way...that way you can still kill me when I'm resting at a Mile-gate because I just got one-shotted, but there will be time that I can see u, mezz you and get the army to take you down

We casters only have to make sure then that we dont all push the See Hidden button the same time as someone yells "Stealth around" see....a little bit of tactices there...

For the people that think stealth isnt too strong....example last night in Emain...

I was with my lowby friends (lvl 39 tank, lvl 43 cleric, lvl 37 cleric, lvl 34 tank and my sorc) walking around an empty Emain when all of a sudden....BOOM: you have been hit for 779 damage...you are dead.....the only thing my party could do is.....RUN!! noone to see the sleathed guy (kept stealthed after killing me) sure you must have fun killing me and see a party of 4 peeps run for you, but that doesnt make it fun for us to run around in a small group...this way we will only be running around in groups of 200 Albs....so if you want that (ganked by 200 albs) do it again next time...espiecially keep up the good work killing a sorc that was just ressed....sitting at mile gate to regain power....

Dont remember you name, but I will be a big bad sorc soon

Gratz on the RP's btw

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Dannyn, the argument about stealthers RvRing 2x as much as other classes is silly. The reason they RvR twice as much as other classes is because they can stealth, derr!!

Surely that merely reinforces my point. BTW I wasn't saying they aren't overpowered (nor was I saying they are), I was saying that basing all your conclusions on a single number is flawed, which it is.
Based on the numbers above it looks like ranger is the uberclass of DAoC... however you have to take into account that that number is telling you. Ranger is top because we have people like Eleasias, who play a lot of RvR and get a lot of RPs. A more useful number for checking class balance would be RP/player/hours of RvR, however that sort of statistic is not easy to gather.

 

[trigali]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
And Brannor, as for "asking for other classes to handle stealth better". Please tell exactly how we are expected to do this. Tell me exactly what someone can do when exiting thier realm gate when its camped by an invisible, undetectable foe? If that foe were a non-stealther it would be easy, keep your distance, report location to friends etc.. In the case of stealthers, you eat dirt, then say meekly in gc "enemy stealther at Yggdra gates". By then its too late. In reality the only way to counter a camping stealther is with another stealther. How annoying.

I'm not Brannor but what the hell

4 easy things to do (to start with):
- always stay in combat mode (prevents crit)
- if you are a caster, cast a AoE dmg spell every 10 secs or so. Does not have to be a powerful, mana eating one: if you manage to inflict only 1hp damange on a stealthed ennemy, he will unstealth
- group with players who ALSO have the see hidden ability
- keep moving. When stealthed, we run as fast as you walk. If you keep moving we can't get to you.

That is to start with. Also some people I attack (and I'm NOT good) just look at me in surprise after I have landed a shot. Sometimes they even look at me in surprise just because I pop up in front of them when my stealth fails... DON'T SLEEP THERE ! DO something ! If you have to wait, analyse what is happening, decide what reply you want to make, then clik-clik-clik to the right hot-bar, sure it's too late. But if you can land a QC-mezz, root or whatever immediatly you sure multiply your chances !

Basically a lot of it is down to preventing us to get first shot. If you fail that, you still can try and prevent us from second shot. After that chances are you are in a fair enough fight as we wear paper-armour.

And for christ sake: we wear paper-armour AND have to melee. That's a hell of a nerf in itself. Sure we climb walls and can take down a rezzer from within the keep. But then we bite the dust and have to /release because OUR healers have no chance of getting to us. So no, it's not all a holiday my friend.

 

[klavrynd]

Time to hijack because this thread is going nowhere

Dannyn , how much of a "protect the minstrel" whiner you are on the forum , i like your style in game

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Dannyn, the argument about stealthers RvRing 2x as much as other classes is silly. The reason they RvR twice as much as other classes is because they can stealth, derr!!

edit :not sure you noticed but thats the point he was talking about mate.

And Brannor, as for "asking for other classes to handle stealth better". Please tell exactly how we are expected to do this. Tell me exactly what someone can do when exiting thier realm gate when its camped by an invisible, undetectable foe? If that foe were a non-stealther it would be easy, keep your distance, report location to friends etc.. In the case of stealthers, you eat dirt, then say meekly in gc "enemy stealther at Yggdra gates". By then its too late. In reality the only way to counter a camping stealther is with another stealther. How annoying.

edit: One word TEAMWORK, go through in group you are not as vulnurable then. Besides once again i must say that at which point did everyone start to think that this game was made for soloing... if it was then it wouldnt be called RvR but PvP dont you think.

Mythic have kinda messed stealth up. They nerfed archers (a justified nerf, but over the top) by giving the other primary stealth class See Hidden. So rather than archers ruling supreme in RvR, we will now have Assassins.

edit: Archers have distance and speed buffs .. assassins need to get close and personal risking death.

I don't want to see assassins get nerfed, but I think assassins getting See Hidden is wrong. Not because See Hidden is overpowered, but because it is overpowered in the hands of other stealthers. Should be given to other classes that dont get a great time in RvR, summoned pet classes maybe.

edit: Cabalists i think get nearsight. Plus their pets can detect you real good

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by trigali


I'm not Brannor but what the hell

4 easy things to do (to start with):
- always stay in combat mode (prevents crit)

A myth doesn't help you against jack... and just annoys your party members... don't go in combat mode. Stay out of it and you'll get your first style off quicker.

- if you are a caster, cast a AoE dmg spell every 10 secs or so. Does not have to be a powerful, mana eating one: if you manage to inflict only 1hp damange on a stealthed ennemy, he will unstealth

Only really applies to pbaoe... however wizards can get this for 7 specs in ice. That's not many points

Got someone in the battlefields with that the other night...

I imagine it's similar for most other casters.

Normal aoe can't be just cast around randomly... (gtaoe can be cast on your feet when it arrives...)

- group with players who ALSO have the see hidden ability
- keep moving. When stealthed, we run as fast as you walk. If you keep moving we can't get to you.

Agree with these two.
Another stealther might just spot that assassin before he gets to your jugular.

Also if you're spinning round, moving about etc. you're very hard to line up.

Someone sitting, or walking in a straight line is an easy target.

 

[Aeiedil]

I was with my lowby friends (lvl 39 tank, lvl 43 cleric, lvl 37 cleric, lvl 34 tank and my sorc) walking around an empty Emain when all of a sudden....BOOM: you have been hit for 779 damage...you are dead.....the only thing my party could do is.....RUN!! noone to see the sleathed guy (kept stealthed after killing me) sure you must have fun killing me and see a party of 4 peeps run for you, but that doesnt make it fun for us to run around in a small group...this way we will only be running around in groups of 200 Albs....so if you want that (ganked by 200 albs) do it again next time...espiecially keep up the good work killing a sorc that was just ressed....sitting at mile gate to regain power....

OH COME ON, even i could probably 1-shot you and im a nightshade. 779 damage would be the damage cap of a 40-45 SB with a 2-hander i reckon, or a l50 ns on a sat target. and how do you expect a 34-43 group to see a level 50 stealther? you won't usually, only if the steatlher gets close. a level 50 non-stealther can see stealthers but its hard, a level 50 assassin can see level 50 assassins easiest of all, and all it takes is a swing to knock out of stealth no stealth, no pa, no death button

 

[Brannor McThife]

Ways to make assassins look Uber:

1) Run in straight lines.
2) Pause for 20/30 seconds in one place.
3) Sit at said point while talking on group/guild/chat channel.
4) Go into the frontier alone as a caster.
5) Don't group with them in PvE, that way, they'll laugh at you dying to enemy assassins while they go hunt enemy casters and try level solo.
6) As a caster, sit in amongst your friends, because you're sure they'll protect you, even if there isn't a friendly assassin nearby to cover you.

Ways to counter assassins and make their life a general nightmare:

1) Zig zag as you run.
2) Never stand still for more than 5 seconds, if you have to, move around a little, changing the direction you face all the time.
3) Type on the run. (NUMLOCK)
4) Never leave your PK alone if you're a caster.
5) Help your local assassin level, and he might just be there to save you from that enemy assassin.
6) Only sit to rest if you know there is an assassin coverring you (casters)
7) PBAoE if you have it.
8) For an assassin to be effective, he's going to want to slit your throat from the front (PA). Cover that angle, and make that the hardest place for him to get to. And if you see a rag doll drog on the ground, DO NOT LOOK AT IT! - "What the?", turn, "ARRGGGGHHH", /release.

Lots of others, but it's really easy to counter that nasty PA.

-G

 

[Novo]

This is old and very boring!

Please separate your ideas on Stealthers:-

We Archers have been nerfed enough thank-you, see this link for a great summary of this.

http://gt7.net/daoc/death_of_a_scout.html

I'll maybe admit that early on we where a little to powerful but now no way.

Follow Brannor's advice and you'll eliminate 80% of your Stealther troubles.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Brannor McThife
Ways to make assassins look Uber
1) Zig zag as you run.
2) Never stand still for more than 5 seconds, if you have to, move around a little, changing the direction you face all the time.
3) Type on the run. (NUMLOCK)
4) Never leave your PK alone if you're a caster.
5) Help your local assassin level, and he might just be there to save you from that enemy assassin.
6) Only sit to rest if you know there is an assassin covering you (casters)
7) PBAoE if you have it.
-G [/QUOTE]

With Bladeturn and Group Plusing Blade turn & shields etc Archers have a lot of trouble killing anything …. And as we move into 1.50- 1.52 we only get worse….

 

[old.chesnor]

Okay, about stealthers RP. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. Stealthers have got the most RP because it is easier for them in the frontiers. Period. Invisibility, ability to pick and choose your targets etc..etc.. But most of all, ability to solo. Best solo RvR class = biggest RP count. Stealth is the premium RvR soloing tool in the game. If you can solo well, you don't die much. If you don't die much, you have more fun. If you have more fun, you play lots. Contrast that to the life of a tank. The 5th mezz, ganked, /release, horse to pk, port to Emain kinda pisses you off, so you log.

All these running around in zig zags, PBAOEing every 10s (classic one this, since only a handful of classes get insta PBAOE) is useful advice, but misses the point. These are tools to stop the assassin killing you, not tools to help you kill the assassin. What is worrying is after See Hidden, assassins are untouchable (except by other assassins). There is little incentive for assassins to group, like there wasn't for archers to group. An RP cow orange cons caster worth like 1000+ RP solo and a fraction of that in a group, so why group ? Assassins have all of the tools to solo, and be the best soloers in the game, bar none.

Are assassins going to run with groups unstealthed to keep up ? Are assassins going to join the zerg and share the spoils ? Or are they going to hunt alone, like they (mostly) do now. The answer is obvious to me. I imagine the only assassins that will group are the stealthbots with see hidden that we will no doubt see (and the group focused assassins that exist now, albeit in very small numbers)

But I guess a game like this always has a class foodchain. And assassins are well and truly at the top after 1.50.

/me goes and rolls an infiltrator

 

[old.Pempula]

I really hate these nerf xxx and xxx posts, but...

Most of the stealther classes' RPs come from playing solo, ganking solo opponents (probably mainly casters, other stealthers, 'sitting ducks'/afks and players of lower level). That means just about that they prey mostly the stupid (and they should). Why spoil their fun? After all, most stealthers ARE harder to level than other classes, their prize being stealth, which is what drives them to level, too. No reason to take it away.

Any decent group (with tanks, casters, healers AND stealthers) will never really have any trouble with stealthers (of course, some mistakes/accidents can and do happen).

 

[matax]

Just like to point out the having had a look at that list. On Excalibur in 3rd place is a Sorcerer also in 8th and 9th position a couple of Skalds.

Do they have stealth, or do they use tactics and think about how to work with their character ?

Yes stealth is good in RvR, but thats the point of it and is an underlying skill of the relevant classes. If you take it away from assassin classes then you might as well remove the class altogether.

The Prydwen top 10 average RP classes:

Hunter 298 746
Shadowblade 287 870
Infiltrator 265 696
Sorcerer 171 486
Runemaster 160 523
Skald 145 764
Minstrel 144 462
Warden 124 595
Ranger 121 686
Thane 120 296

Hunters and Shadowblades top - well Midgard does have double/3 times the population so that probably helps as well !
Scouts and Nightshades ? in position 17 and 28 respectively. Doesn't look quite as uber there either !

Edit - and I'd just like to say that staying stealthed after hitting someone is wrong in my opinion - as soon as you attack you should de-stealth. IMHO and as a person with a shadowblade

 

[trigali]

Stealth is the premium RvR soloing tool in the game. If you can solo well, you don't die much.

Answer slightly out of context but: Stealth helps jack shit when PvE. So assassins are a bitch to level. In a way, it's kind of a compensation to be eventually good at something...

These are tools to stop the assassin killing you, not tools to help you kill the assassin. What is worrying is after See Hidden, assassins are untouchable (except by other assassins).

These are tools to also spot the assassin. Once you know where he is, he is almost as good as dead. Don't forget either that the next patch removes the ability to single shot and remain hidden, which will help you guys gank us.

Are assassins going to run with groups unstealthed to keep up ? Are assassins going to join the zerg and share the spoils ?

I do, quite a lot actually (then again i'm not very good a SB :/) I'm specced as a shadowzerker, so my stealth is useful a lot on keep takes and I can kind-of-tank a bit to try and take down archers and casters from the top of the remparts. So yes, some assassins (more than you think I imagine) do run around with the zerg. A few people have the real mentality to spend hours playing alone in the field (/bows to Azal, Blood...) but I'm too sociable for that and I imagine others are too.

We ARE a good class in RvR, OK. We DO however lose some of our abilities (the 1-shot and stay stealthed) which should compensate that a little). And remember: once you see us, it's too late for one of us. Sometimes it's you, it does not have to be though.

 

[Molten Lava]

Read my post

Originally posted by old.Pempula
Why spoil their fun? After all, most stealthers ARE harder to level than other classes, their prize being stealth, which is what drives them to level, too. No reason to take it away.

Like I said before...make it easier to lvl, but take some uberness away in RvR

 

[Molten Lava]

Solution 3

Originally posted by matax
Yes stealth is good in RvR, but thats the point of it and is an underlying skill of the relevant classes. If you take it away from assassin classes then you might as well remove the class altogether.

Like they will do with Sorcs coming patches...first we got Purge, later we get De-mezz for casters and we get shorter duration of mezz.

As I said in ealier threads...np in nerfing classes....but dont nerf them without giving anything back...

Sorc needs to get bolt when mezz is nerfed
Stealthers need to get easier levelling when (part of) stealth is nerfed

And pls dont tell that Sorc is more then Mezz...if I wanted firepower I would have chosen Wizzy, If I wanted to debuff I would have chosen Cabalist

 

[old.Pempula]

Re: Read my post

Originally posted by Molten Lava


Like I said before...make it easier to lvl, but take some uberness away in RvR

What uberness in RvR???? Stealther class only have advantage over other classes SOLO. In groups they are useful, sure, but not 'über' in any way.

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by klavrynd
Time to hijack because this thread is going nowhere

Dannyn , how much of a "protect the minstrel" whiner you are on the forum , i like your style in game

I'm not sure if that's a compliment or an insult.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Re: Solution 3

Originally posted by Molten Lava


Like they will do with Sorcs coming patches...first we got Purge, later we get De-mezz for casters and we get shorter duration of mezz.

Hrm... de-mezz lets you do something else other than mezz and watch tanks kill people one by one... so it's a giving as well as a taking away thing....

Sorc needs to get bolt when mezz is nerfed

you've not fired many bolts in RvR then (that said they're improving the blocking code... not by much but by a bit)

Stealthers need to get easier levelling when (part of) stealth is nerfed

The main obstacle to stealthers getting levels is people going 'ick don't want one of them in my group'.
Stealthers are ten times worse in reputation than in group-friendly power...

And pls dont tell that Sorc is more then Mezz...if I wanted firepower I would have chosen Wizzy, If I wanted to debuff I would have chosen Cabalist

too late.. and cabalists don't debuff - they DoT and disease... debuffs are any mages

oh sorcerors debuff and DoT too depending on spec... or they nuke...

they mezz too but it's only one line out of 3... and only half of that lines power (ok so the pet ain't great in RvR)

 

[Derric]

Morgan Le Fay:
1) Yorn Rove (50th lvl Saracen Infiltrator)
2) Pur (50th lvl Elf Eldritch)
3) Honey Dew (50th lvl Norseman Runemaster)

Lancelot:
1) Phos (50th lvl Highlander Armsman)
2) Xearoii Swiftkillz (50th lvl Celt Hero)
3) Wrap (50th lvl Lurikeen Enchantress)

Tristan:
1) Methodman (50th lvl Kobold Runemaster)
2) Asmodius (50th lvl Avalonian Wizard)
3) Silentthunder Hyprsnypr (50th lvl Norseman Hunter)

Iseult:
1) Echoic (50th lvl Norseman Skald)
2) Torid (50th lvl Dwarf Healer)
3) Sweat (50th lvl Norseman Warrior)

Count the stealthers
Then count the non-stealthers
Then stop whining about uber stealth

 

[Danya]

Only one class comes up twice... OMG NERF RMS!!!!

 

[matax]

Originally posted by Dannyn
Only one class comes up twice... OMG NERF RMS!!!!

LOL - Runemasters must have stealth then !

 

[old.chesnor]

Don't you just hate it when people quote out of context stats as proof that class X should, or should not get nerfed ?

Well, try these ones out for size. From Merlin, the most populated server excluding the 'dreds in US....

Top 10 individual realm point holders

1) Silus (50th lvl Lurikeen Ranger) [Hibernia Mafia] 2,535,891
2) Dakkon Rockshoe (50th lvl Kobold Runemaster) [Independent] 2,439,708
3) Shamino Shadowlord (50th lvl Highlander Minstrel) [LFG] 1,908,239
4) Mink (50th lvl Saracen Scout) [LFG] 1,878,253
5) Victer Mizer (50th lvl Kobold Shadowblade) [The Dark Arcane] 1,808,055
6) Teargiver IntheLuvShack (50th lvl Elf Ranger) [Tempest] 1,775,733
7) Nafgar (50th lvl Norseman Hunter) [Independent] 1,621,026
8) Elahir (50th lvl Briton Infiltrator) [Corp Por] 1,551,605
9) Skitz (50th lvl Lurikeen Eldritch) [Hibernia Mafia] 1,516,418
10) Sendog (50th lvl Lurikeen Ranger) [Tempest] 1,471,381

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Don't you just hate it when people quote out of context stats as proof that class X should, or should not get nerfed ?

Yet to actually see any useful stats in this thread TBH.