Why run off?

[Turamber]

This is possibly an old subject -- but why do so many Albion's flee at the first sight of Norse when in Emain? Tonight was as good a case as any. Lots of Albions, maybe 20-30 of them ... some Norse are seen coming through the milegate - someone says "There is 10 of them" at which about half of the force runs off back towards our portal keep.

If people don't want to fight, why go there in the first place? Maybe you'd be happier staying in Camelot and sending chocolates and flowers by post instead?

Having reached level 50 earlier this week I thought I'd try and solve the mystery that is RvR for me. Still haven't quite got there. The only time it seems to be organised is on keep takes against npc's, skirmishing isn't simply chaotic it's ridiculous -- 9 times out of 10 it seems to turn into a nice realm point farming session for Midgard's finest.

Or am I doing something wrong here?

Yours, a very dejected and battered paladin.

 

[klavrynd]

this will explain it :

must .... hug ... Man At Arms .... cannot die ... with....overpowered...class

 

[aethtemplar]

The difference is that there are two sorts of armies in Albion. There's organised guild armies : today the Knights of Albion alliance today took 6 keeps in quick succession, passing through Emain on the way to the 5 which were in Hibernia, and wiped out several hibbie and middie forces. And then there's the Emain evening irregulars.

If you want satisfying RvR, there's three ways to do it. 1 - create a solo-able RvR class like scout, minstrel or infiltrator. 2- get yourself a well-balanced skirmish group (strongly recommend someone with speed) and go do your own thing together. 3 - fight as part of an organised Guild/alliance army. I've never yet seen an organised Albion Guild army run away. In fact, I've never yet seen any Albions run away, but this is because I never go to Emain in an evening looking for a vague scrap.

Emain in the evening is the equivalent of an internet FPS game. Lots of people running round effectively doing their own thing. Easy meat for any semi-organised force.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Well i go round solo turamber coz i get pissed of that crap myself even though i die i do give a go

 

[Turamber]

I understand what you are saying Aeth. Interestingly some of the irregulars contained quite a number of Midgard's finest at their portal whilst you were taking Hibernian keeps today.

The game as it is structured now awards realm points for killing players -- not for taking keeps and killing npc guards. So, yes, I was looking for a vague scrap. Have had some good evenings this week when with a good balanced group (waves to Shanara and Wels) but tonight Blanx and I were looking for a little fun ... after all this is a game and should be about fun.

But seeing half of your realm mates run at the first sight of a troll isn't fun at all.

 

[_tindel_]

Originally posted by old.Turamber
If people don't want to fight, why go there in the first place? Maybe you'd be happier staying in Camelot and sending chocolates and flowers by post instead?

Yeah, very good point im afraid, albs get som freakin action going on!

 

[Danya]

I think the problem is Turamber, people seem to think they need to outnumber Midgard 5-to-1 or better to win a fight against them. They don't seem to relise that if they stood their ground as a group instead of fleeing and getting picked off piecemeal we'd do a lot better.
I've only seen a couple of instances of good organised RvR in emain, most of the time it's just albs running around like headless chickens.

 

[old.m0lder]

heh..

The only times I see albs, is when they are stealthing solo in gorge, or when they are in one tight bunch, zerg-attacking... (and then always outnumber us 3 to 1)

 

[Ottar]

> but why do so many Albion's flee at the first sight of Norse

This trend has been diminishing for some time now. It originated in a period when Midgard outlevelled Albion badly. Nowadays they don’t neccesarily run. They are more cautious, yes. If one would search for a flaw in their collective character then it’s lack of agressiveness. Agressiveness can get one killed. Can also gain initiative.

As for well organized ”guild armies”, Ive yet to see one. If any of the three realms exhibited tactical co-ordination of a whorehouse in Calcutta, they’d be bloody unstoppable.

Ottar

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

I recon it has also something to do with a little incompetence and fear of taking on the responsibility..... ie when you are in PvE everything seems easy and straightforward - you know what the enemy will do all the time, thus less eventualities = less chance of screwup. However in PvP .... people feel incompetent because :

1) Would rather run than be known as a player who cant use his class in PvP < which is a little sad but i think true >
2) Fears ingame death.
3) Doesnt know whats the right thing to do in the situation.

possible solution : Since most people at higher levels are guilded i recon GMs should pay more attention to 'combat training' - stage events, raid hunting grounds of an enemy etc. The more experience you get the more stable youll act.... well-known and tested theory.

 

[- Pathfinder -]

... which is why I nowadays only RvR when I have a suitable group. With the exception of guilders and a few others, I do not wish to RvR at all, simply due to the inability of the Albs to fight. Either they run, stand still gawking at the enemies while being smashed, or they end up breaking mez. We usually end up wiping whatever mids/Hibs we find in emain with a balanced group, which makes for interesting RvR. Zerging isn't to my liking, so an overly large force of Albs in emain will result in me not going there, unless there's an equally large Mid/Hib force.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Heh i just go straight in i dont care if i die and the mid gains rp so what i just go back with more ppl and kick their asses

 

[vermillon]

Mids run off too. Yestarday in emain I see that happen, many times and not only when they were out numbered.

After 3 hours in emain last nigght fighting with the Templars and the Griffon Knight me and Bullveye left the main force and we were trying to find some enemies to suicide. After 10 mins flinaly we found some Mids and we run on them. They propably thought that the main force was behind us and they start to run back. Till they realize we are just two, we managed to kill a red cons Norseman (Cizza I think) before both of us kissed the ground.

So the fear of death makes you Mids run of too. Just the most of they time you have more high lvl ppl in the rvr zones.

Many thanks to the Templars and the Griffons for all fun i had yeastarday fighting by their side. /sal

 

[Ottar]

> little incompetence and fear of taking on the responsibility.....

Oh, c’mon..

> 3) Doesnt know whats the right thing to do in the situation.

RvR on open terrain is so bloody fast most of the time, even if someone tried to co-ordinate things, by the time he types two orders, its all over or has drastically changed. Therefore the only way people start to act/react adequately is to develop intuition. That only comes with practice. Don’t think battlegrounds are the answer to that.

In Midgard there is the additional problem of having to build groups around healers. There aint any. And without any, there aint no group really, just temporary suicide clubs.

As a strange side-effect, Midgard is now at least partially better buffed than you guys. Your healer classes rarely spec high in buffs. As we aint got any, we have an increasing fleet of shammie buffbots to have any buffs at all, and these are HIGH in augumentation. So there ya go.

> GMs should pay more attention to 'combat training'

Nice dream.

> the most of they time you have more high lvl ppl in the rvr zones

Is that true anymore?

Ottar

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Originally posted by Ottar
> little incompetence and fear of taking on the responsibility.....

Oh, c’mon..
< wonder whats your explanation to this is apart from 'Oh, Cmon'>

> 3) Doesnt know whats the right thing to do in the situation.

RvR on open terrain is so bloody fast most of the time, even if someone tried to co-ordinate things, by the time he types two orders, its all over or has drastically changed. Therefore the only way people start to act/react adequately is to develop intuition. That only comes with practice. Don’t think battlegrounds are the answer to that.

In Midgard there is the additional problem of having to build groups around healers. There aint any. And without any, there aint no group really, just temporary suicide clubs.

As a strange side-effect, Midgard is now at least partially better buffed than you guys. Your healer classes rarely spec high in buffs. As we aint got any, we have an increasing fleet of shammie buffbots to have any buffs at all, and these are HIGH in augumentation. So there ya go.

< Only to underline my point about the more time you spend actually fighting in RvR the better you do... since you rarely have to spend time wondering what to do >

> GMs should pay more attention to 'combat training'

Nice dream.

<Have to agree on this one>

> the most of they time you have more high lvl ppl in the rvr zones

Is that true anymore?

<not related to my post .... so nothing to add here >

Ottar

 

[case-rigantis]

whenever i go to emain i like to try and join a well organised group although this can`t always be done

what i have noticed is that whenever we meet mids as a whole they are always much higher levels for example:

we generally in adecent group might have 2lvl 50`s 2lvl 45+ and the rest between 38-45

i`m level 42 and we generally run into groups of mids equalling or outnumbering us and all red con to me

usually we stand and fight..then get a horse back to sauvage..i think the issue is people having the view that mids are much tougher than when in fact the issue is that mids have more high levels than us

 

[Verena]

The RvR on both the English servers can either be awesome or completly rubbish. The main problem with nights in emain is that you have several groups who all have an idea of how they want to fight against the upcomming enemies. You can have 2 groups charging while another group was just talking to some others who were still at the PK and were asking to be picked up by the mainforce. Thus resulting in a wipeout of the charging group cause they "assumed" that the others can read their minds and that they thought everyone was following.

It basicly comes down to one simple thing and that's communication. Some nights you have several groups who're working as a team and other nights you have guild groups who tend to run upto the both MG's all alone either cause they feel they're group is all they need or they're surrounded by others/strangers who they don't want to group with.

We've all seen it happen were "insert random player" announces in /s Chargeeeee and a few other who might've been in their group indeed charge while others stand around doing their own thing. (either waiting for friends who were heading towards them or something similair).

When I used to play in hib you had the regular emain people who were "in charge" during the night. They were the ones setting up a /cg and everyone sorta followed what was being said in /cg. I haven't fought in emain on alb side that much untill I finally dinged 44. The times I did go there it's basicly a certain group of players that seem like very experienced but are working alone. Some follow them around but get split up quitte fast cause they're not aware of what is being said within that group. This is basicly what kills every bit of a chance to counter an attack. This is basicly the main reason why 50% charges while the other 50% doesn't. There's not enough unity and that is exactly what kills the chance of some decent fights.

Emain can be fun in a large group but the best RvR for me doesn't happen in Emain at the MG's. The best nights have been where you setup an oiled group with a decent /cg and coordinated attacks. You can have the best sorceror with you with an amazing AE mez but when 50% doesn't know when a group is mezzed you'll run into problems right away. I can't count the numbers of times where I mez 3 people and those 3 are immediatly attacked while there's a whole group unmezzed standing around.

You don't hit mezzed players, you hit the ones that are not mezzed. The ones that are mezzed are supposed to be standing there for 1+ minute while they're watching their group get wiped out. Don't hit the ones standing still, hit the ones that are moving.

Think of RvR as PvE where the same rules apply and you'll end up with a very decent fight. The way I see some people fight in RvR amazes me, it's like they've never learned in PvE how to attack a group of mobs, eg. tanglers. Think of an incomming force of middies as a group of tanglers you're about to kill for the 1000th time. The amount of times i've seen people running into an army as an headless chicken makes me want to cry.

The moment some people see some RP's (enemies) they forget everything they've learned and charge while thniking that the rest behind him/her knows what he's upto.

I could rant on and on and write a full page of things that go wrong but you get my idea.

 

[Azal]

In my experience emain isn't the best place to be basing general rvr opinions on.

Either half the ppl there are just lowbies having a look around, or exp grps (normally only mids exping there), or it's a full-on war over DC or similar...or just ppl running around looking for something to kill with however many people they ported in with.

Sometimes it's fun sometimes it's not (had a laugh with delket for over an hour on saturday night hi mate ) the past weekend has actually been quite fun in emain, normally it's pretty standard bollocks.

 

[Turamber]

Thanks for your comments all.

I'm certainly not going to give up on skirmishing, but I hope certain of my fellow countrymen can develop a little more backbone. Running away accomplishes nothing -- the Mids just target your minstrel and kill you piecemeal. May as well stand and fight, take some of them with you.

Certainly Blanx and I managed to kill a little Kobold chappie and, whilst the tanks were trying to kill us, a group of casters behind us killed some more of them. Just imagine what would have happened if all had stayed there...

By the way, meant to thank SoTL for letting me join their keep defence on Saturday -- really enjoyed myself no end

Bloody shame that Gideon and his fellow cleric went down so far from the Keep walls though, else we'd have kept them at bay a bit longer I think.

 

[old.Enigma]

Originally posted by Ottar
> little incompetence and fear of taking on the responsibility.....

Oh, c’mon..

> 3) Doesnt know whats the right thing to do in the situation.

RvR on open terrain is so bloody fast most of the time, even if someone tried to co-ordinate things, by the time he types two orders, its all over or has drastically changed. Therefore the only way people start to act/react adequately is to develop intuition. That only comes with practice. Don’t think battlegrounds are the answer to that.

In Midgard there is the additional problem of having to build groups around healers. There aint any. And without any, there aint no group really, just temporary suicide clubs.

As a strange side-effect, Midgard is now at least partially better buffed than you guys. Your healer classes rarely spec high in buffs. As we aint got any, we have an increasing fleet of shammie buffbots to have any buffs at all, and these are HIGH in augumentation. So there ya go.

> GMs should pay more attention to 'combat training'

Nice dream.

> the most of they time you have more high lvl ppl in the rvr zones

Is that true anymore?

Ottar

So true. people just dont want to play healers anymore I have seen many get into there 40's and think sod this and go role something else. the main threat to Midgard atm is large numbers of albs or trying to go solo from the mpk.It only makes me laugh when I see minstrels/infils do so many things that I didnt think you could do. Though if Midgard had a minstrel I think I would solo RvR a lot too

So this made me think having those two classes being so good solo does this actually go to the detriment of the rest of your realm? Do you guys find it hard to get a minstrel in your group? Most middies have a skald. They cant stealth so are happy to be grouped. We seem to be able to chase down most albs. Where is your group minstrel?

 

[Lydek]

In Midgard there is the additional problem of having to build groups around healers. There aint any.

Heh come and try Albion or even Hibernia sometime then.

In Alb you need a sorc and a cleric to do the job of a Healer.

As you can see here, there are about the same number of lvl 50 Clerics and Healers and there are 5!! (yes 5) lvl 50 sorcs.

How about Hibernia then? You say you have no healers, but you have as many lvl 50 Healers as there are total lvl 50s in Hibernia's top 3 classes.

As for minstrels, again compare numbers to the number of skalds you have... Goes some way to explaining why Alb groups rarely have speed, especially as we seem to have at least our fair share of infstrels too

 

[old.mattshanes]

Bah my rp aint been updated

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Thats because we all hate your guts Matt .... deal with it. j/k

PS: anti-Shanes community even bribed the moderator of that statistics board <har har har>

 

[old.mattshanes]

pfft i hate myself but u shouldnt hate me

 

[Shike]

hmm it is also a question of attitude i think,

If i face 3 enemies alone, nomatter what they con (except all grey)
I charge, If I take 1 down with me, i believe i have won

i cant take down 3 by myself, if one is a skald, I face a stun and a lot of bashing to death, this i know for sure, i talk about yellowcons here. Why do I still charge? well, I prefer to be known as the mofo who never ever give up, than running away from an enemy and be known as the mofo who ran, got catched and cut down from the back.

Running solves nothing, by running u show fear, and fear has no room in a warriors heart.

Attack first, make sure you get the alphastrike, win initiative.... Win a few battles this way, and you will notice one thing, Mids are nothing to fear, neither are Hibs. Only thing that is annoying sometimes is the horseride back.. but on the other hand, you have time to go pee, make coffe, get a coke, and so on If u dont get a rez

Imagine how demoralizing it is for the classes tanks are supposed to protect if the tanks suddenly decide, oh noooo I am gonna diiiiie, get me outta this hellhole! and run off...
I would be so pissed if I was a caster... but thats me.

 

[zedorf luribomb]

1. Eat your food!
2. Stay healthy and exercise alot!
3. Close your eyes!
4. Go to emain

 

[Ottar]

> In Alb you need a sorc and a cleric to do the job of a Healer.

Albion has 3 healing classes. Few friars for some reason, true, but alot of clerics and paladins. True again that alot of clerics are highly specced in smite, so the heals they provide might not be of highest quality. Still, form my RvR experience, albs do tend to get healed alot. So do hibs.

My highest (and only) alb character was lvl 5 cleric, so correct me if I’m wrong here. It would seem that it would not be typical for an albion group to be without any kind of healing at all. In Midgard, building an exp group almost always comes down to our favourite national pasttime called ”find a healer”.

As for CC, true, sorcs aint that common. There are, however, quite a population of minstrels. While not as good as sorcs or healers, they are better than skalds with our single insta.

In PvE scene, it aint as bad as it used to be. People are levelling their buffbots and so we do have quite a number of low to mid level shamen around. Also, at that level range we still have those healers who aint quit the game yet. The true problem is the endgame, where most of the healers simply cease to exist. We have 30 lvl 50 healers? How many are active at RvR? Perhaps 10? Also, at that time shammie buffbots stop being active in groups and take their positions in safespots.

Midgard healing classes stop once they discover they aint any fun to play in RvR.

> As for minstrels, again compare numbers to the number of skalds you have...

Aye, that is a strong advantage we have. A fun to play and group-friendly speed-class.

With recent tweaks, Midgard might have anouther strong class coming - spiritmasters. A caster class that can nuke, CC, heal after a fashion and in some cases maybe even res.

Btw, two things puzzle me about alb population. How come you have so many paladins (the easiest class to kill imo) and so few friars?

Ottar

 

[- Pathfinder -]

Because, "warriors" are the typical class alot of people choose (read newbies ) and the chant thing probably looks cool

 

[Danya]

Also Paladin is the best PvE tank, it's just rubbish for RvR.

 

[ivan_tribbiani]

Why do people run in combat.. or even away from combat ?

Well just found out that technically.... technically its called 'tactical withdrawal from the zone of potential conflict'. Amazing aint it.