Rant Why is there no English Sea?

[Jupitus]

The British Navy is second to none... we have loads and loads of ships...

Spoiler

they're just all stealthy

 

[cHodAX]

The British Navy is second to none... we have loads and loads of ships...

Spoiler

they're just all stealthy

The Soviets have Mastery of Stealth 5!

 

[Dukat]

I think you both missed the point, our carrier groups lack the firepower to properly protect the carriers. That isn't fit for purpose, it is understrength.

Inadequate to protect carriers from what though?

I agree, if we were in anything approaching a conventional war with a country like China then we could be considered understength. However, we're not and probably never will be called on to engage a Navy of that size, especially not alone.

At the moment I would argue that they're fit for purpose because there is very little in the way of a conventional threat to protect our carriers from.

I guess I can see what you're saying though, and while I may not agree completely, I can understand your point

 

[cHodAX]

Inadequate to protect carriers from what though?

I agree, if we were in anything approaching a conventional war with a country like China then we could be considered understength. However, we're not and probably never will be called on to engage a Navy of that size, especially not alone.

At the moment I would argue that they're fit for purpose because there is very little in the way of a conventional threat to protect our carriers from.

I guess I can see what you're saying though, and while I may not agree completely, I can understand your point

Air attack, sub attack mostly but a direct attack with destoyers/cruisers as well. 3 carriers and 6 destroyers does not add up and that is all we are going to be left with. From a little bit of reading this evening it is one of the lowest if not the lowest carrier to destroyer ratio for any navy in the world. Also it seems our carriers don't have adequate air protection either, can't find the reference at the moment but it seems we will have to shoot incoming missles down because our aircraft don't have the range to go after the enemy aircraft who launch long range missiles.

 

[Dukat]

Air attack, sub attack mostly but a direct attack with destoyers/cruisers as well. 3 carriers and 6 destroyers does not add up and that is all we are going to be left with. From a little bit of reading this evening it is one of the lowest if not the lowest carrier to destroyer ratio for any navy in the world. Also it seems our carriers don't have adequate air protection either, can't find the reference at the moment but it seems we will have to shoot incoming missles down because our aircraft don't have the range to go after the enemy aircraft who launch long range missiles.

All valid points I'd say

We're starting to get to the point where I suffer from a lack of knowledge heh, but just from what I've come across in the past it would seem that air attack is one of the things we can almost discount entirely due to how we've almost always got near-guaranteed air superiority where ever we fight.

If the aircraft that launch the long range missiles can't even take off, the missiles become a bit of a moot point

Again, this falls down in the face of a conventional threat on the scale of China, but in the middle east I'd say things are a little more where they need to be.

Plus even at the worst case, CIWS's should really be able to deal with whatever gets through the combined strength of the RAF, the US and the air forces of whichever other allies are with us

Again, I really dislike entering into the numbers game on topics like this because things are never as clear cut as that, atleast from how I understand it.

 

[cHodAX]

After reading Red Storm Rising again I have become really interested in the whole thing, it seems we were much better prepared back in the era when the book was set. Luckily the Russian's let alot of thier fleet rust away in the last 20 years so we probably do have enough to cope just about but Russia is cash rich on oil/gas sales and are starting to invest in thier navy again, more so in thier long range strategic/tactical bombing forces which should be a real worry for our navy because in that area we are heavily outgunned and no way can we outdo Russia when it comes to air superiority in the early days of a war because the Yanks do not have anything like the aircraft numbers they had based in Europe back in the mid-80's.

 

[R2D3]

Our armed forces are fit for the purpose of tagging along with the Americans so that it looks like they arent acting unilaterally and we can pretend to ourselves (nobody else is falling for it) that we are a world power still.

If we were trying to go it alone my money would be on the wet paper bag (they can be dangerous )...

 

[Dukat]

Our armed forces are fit for the purpose of tagging along with the Americans so that it looks like they arent acting unilaterally and we can pretend to ourselves (nobody else is falling for it) that we are a world power still.

If we were trying to go it alone my money would be on the wet paper bag (they can be dangerous )...

And yet we handled Sierra Leone very neatly, unsupported, with such ease that hardly anyone actually knows what actually happened there - primarily because we didn't make a hash of it.

 

[R2D3]

And yet we handled Sierra Leone very neatly, unsupported, with such ease that hardly anyone actually knows what actually happened there - primarily because we didn't make a hash of it.

Yep we managed to rescue our own troops, who had been kidnapped by a drugged up gang after failing to tell the UN troops (who were also operating in Sierra Leone) that they were going on a little trip and give the gang a bit of a kicking. Which was a bit embarassing, though at least we didnt forget our men were there.

Puts a slightly different picture on the might of the British armed forces compared to being able to handle ourselves unless we come up against an enemy like China though

China....................................................................................................................................................................................... Dopped up gang of child soldiers

Page not wide enough to show how far apart those two enemies are.....

 

[Dukat]

Yep we managed to rescue our own troops, who had been kidnapped by a drugged up gang after failing to tell the UN troops (who were also operating in Sierra Leone) that they were going on a little trip and give the gang a bit of a kicking. Which was a bit embarassing, though at least we didnt forget our men were there.

Puts a slightly different picture on the might of the British armed forces compared to being able to handle ourselves unless we come up against an enemy like China though

China....................................................................................................................................................................................... Dopped up gang of child soldiers

Page not wide enough to show how far apart those two enemies are.....

We ended a civil war that had been ongoing for 10 years in a country with a population over half the size of Somalia.

Somalia - Remember the state the US, with its shiny carriers and wonderfully big numbers that you seem to enjoy left that civil war? I'd like to think we did rather well, when you look at the picture in that light.

Having a bigger army than China isn't actually a prerequisite for being a 'world power'.

Being able to have an influcence in far parts of the world and being able to protect our interests in an effective, professional manner wherever they happen to be on the globe is far more important, imo.

Either way, your words were "If we were trying to go it alone my money would be on the wet paper bag" - Are you honestly comparing the 'West Side Boys', thier buddies, and a minor civil war with a wet paper bag?

 

[R2D3]

We ended a civil war that had been ongoing for 10 years in a country with a population over half the size of Somalia.

Somalia - Remember the state the US, with its shiny carriers and wonderfully big numbers that you seem to enjoy left that civil war? I'd like to think we did rather well, when you look at the picture in that light.

Having a bigger army than China isn't actually a prerequisite for being a 'world power'.

Being able to have an influcence in far parts of the world and being able to protect our interests in an effective, professional manner wherever they happen to be on the globe is far more important, imo.

Well very different situations Somalia and Sierra Leone. Somalia an intervention into a country where the population was hostile, as were quite a few of the neighbouring countries. Also the US did put a lid on Somalia when they sent in the marines, there big mistake was to pull them out too quickly, the Somalis then came out of hiding.

Sierra Leone, population friendly and welcoming, neighbouring countries supportive (in fact it was Guinea who gave the rebels the biggest kicking) and the rebels had been driven back earlier in the conflict by a small mercenary army (couple of hundred men) and had only come back when the mercenaries had finished and gone back home.

Yep its not necessary to have an armed forces as big as China to be a world power, but then we are not one anymore and the list of countries that could give us a hiding is a pretty big one these days if we tried to project our power unilaterally. Even in the Falklands War we would have been screwed if the US hadnt backed us and the Argentinians airforce hadnt hamstrung themselves and that was a long time ago.

Well to be honest comparing the West Side Boys etc with a wet paper bag isnt understating the facts as much as saying that is we came up against the Chinese we would be "understrength". We proabably wouldnt even slow them down.

 

[Ch3tan]

Being a world power is not about having the biggest guns, as Dukat has pointed out.

You'd think we'd be past such things?

 

[Ch3tan]

Even in the Falklands War we would have been screwed if the US hadnt backed us and the Argentinians airforce hadnt hamstrung themselves and that was a long time ago.

You what? Are you on crack? Jesus titty fucking christ! Have you seen the state of the Argie airforce and navy?

 

[pez]

Its my strong belief that if a core European country was attacked the whole continent would rapidly form a united military. I cannot see how looking at UK forces separate from French/German/Spanish/Italian or Scandanavian is useful in anything but overseas 'one way' wars.

 

[R2D3]

You what? Are you on crack? Jesus titty fucking christ! Have you seen the state of the Argie airforce and navy?

Nope the US rushed out their latest sidewinder missiles which gave our harriers the ability to take all aspect shots, so enabled our pilots to take head on shots. The argies were also forbidden from engaging our planes and the US hadnt similarly supplied them with sidewinders or it could have been a very different story.

If I remember rightly the US also let us use their facilities to refuel the Vulcan that bombed Port Stanley airfield.

The argie airforce wasnt modern, but their pilots were very good.

"Being a world power is not about having the biggest guns, as Dukat has pointed out" nope its about making sure we make sure we operate in conjunction with the big boys on the block, like the little guy who hangs around with a really big guy at school and thinks he's hard by association.

 

[Fafnir]

Blame it on Henry VIII who used to sail his ship up the channel on more than one occasion. And since he loved doin it so much he didnt have enough Seamen to cover an ocean...

 

[ford prefect]

Did anyone see that documentary a few months ago on building the latest trident subs on Discovery HD? Apparently these subs have a ceramic skin which is covered in a top secret rubber recipe which is great at absorbing sonar making it all stealthy so it can nuke peasents unnoticed.

All well and good, but because the M.O.D. had shut this particular factory down in the early 90's and opened it again in 2002, but no bugger new how to make this stuff covering the hull, so they had to send a team of engineers out to look at a working sub and scientists had to be drafted in to work out how to make the stuff.

Half the workforce had to down tools for three months while this as going on, because the skills to create that skin had been lost. I dread to think how much things like that cost.

 

[pez]

probably less than running a factory for 7 years.