:*( why do we play games we don't like? :*(

[Sharkith]

What can I say. The last week was a relevation to me I honestly felt all this time I have decided to play a game that would allow a lot of room for discussion and in game politics. Then I had that discussion with GOA.

The sheer rate at which I post and troll these forums should indicate that it has been quite good fun to mess around here (for meh - yeah I am sad). It has given me a way to have a break from writing the stuff I have to write in work and helps me break up what can be a pretty intense day.

I always felt that the forums were an extension of the game. I fell into DAOC when a close friend let me see it. He was on US cluster at the time and also started here when he heard I had bought the game over 3 years ago. Aithne eventually left because he hated ToA, hated how it made players backstab each other. I am beginning to think he had the right idea.

Seeing the game as essentially purely about three realms versus three relams has destroyed most of what I found fun on the forums. The politics and what you could achieve just by debating and arguing. To see it all be brought to a very definite restriction in the way it has been done here through my discussion with GOA I suddenly feel the game losing all its appeal.

I can't give up. I have some of the best friends I ever made here now. I lubs NFD and GG2. I cannot just leave them but at the end of the day DAOC now seems like a glorified realm versus realm counterstrike.

So tell me why do we play games when we learn to hate them?

 

[Amadeus]

I have some of the best friends I ever made here now.

So tell me why do we play games when we learn to hate them?

Thats one of the answers to your question

And I agree. I have continued to play MMORPG's long after I've grown to 'hate' them. The main reason is the friendships you build up. I think it's also the attachment you develop with your character too. Ive have a few chars on a couple of MMO's I dont play anymore and I 'miss' them. Using a very bad analogy, I guess it's similar to the reason people stay in relationships long after they know its time to move on. It's what youre use to. It becomes part of your schedule, logging on at night for a few hours for some fun, even when the fun disappears. (btw, I mean logging on at night for some fun, game wise, not relationship wise, but I suppose you could use the same terms )

For me another reason is always the 'hope' that the bad will somehow be fixed in the future (talking about gameplay here rather than community).

I think it really becomes a problem when you play too much (from my own experience anyway). When I'd play a lot over the course of a few weeks, I'd find myself becoming more easily annoyed at stuff. It's like the game becomes too much of a focus in your life. When I see that happening, I just cut down my playtime, start looking at the game as just that, a game, and then I dont get bothered about things nearly as much. And the friendships you build up are not a feature of DAOC (for example), they can easily exist outside it (or until the next shiny mmo comes along )

But it is a great question. I've always been very interested in the amount of emotional investment people have in games. In one sense, in some cases it borders on the ridiculous, but having had said investment myself, I can still understand it.

 

[Shafu]

I feel that way too. It seems hipocritical to whine about the best game available, but it has moved so far away from what I believe is "the spirit of the game". I have always considered the design of the New Frontiers to be severely lacking, and I think most problems can be traced back to NF, including the recent relic incident.

I cant decide where to play. English cluster, Avalon or US? For me, it has nothing to do with GoA. It's quite simply a matter of self preservation. A high population is the only counter to the extreme suckiness of NF. Choosing (or even considering) to play on a German server tells you two things about a player like me: I really like (the core of) the game. Im really desperate.

To answer your question, why do I play a game I hate? Because I have seen in glimpses how fantastic this game can be, and Im hoping Mythic will reconsider giving NF an overhaul.

 

[ST^]

If I don't like a game, I don't play it. To do otherwise is, well, stupid.

 

[Shike]

When you start asking yourself these questions, you have already realised what the answer is, you just dont want to accknowledge the truth and go by that. That is my wisdom for today

 

[Bracken]

Seeing the game as essentially purely about three realms versus three relams has destroyed most of what I found fun on the forums. The politics and what you could achieve just by debating and arguing. To see it all be brought to a very definite restriction in the way it has been done here through my discussion with GOA I suddenly feel the game losing all its appeal.

The thing is that many of us feel the complete opposite. To some of us (and I've been playing the game since day 1) it has always been about realm versus realm. It's mindless escapism from usually busy lives. Not about demonstrating skill or being highly competitive, but just about the simplest form of relaxation. And your realm was your team that basically you worked with (however loosely). Many people (the majority of whom don't venture onto these boards) have found the erosion of that has meant the game was losing it's appeal - the fact that how we had always played the game came under increasing criticism and belittling as the years went by made it less and less enjoyable. It lost it's simple charm.

So for many of use recent events have been like lancing the boil - and for some of us it is a relief to know that the concept of realm versus realm still exists. That's not to say there isn't room for other playstyles or views of the game (although you wouldn't believe that listening to some), but the essential basis of the game now is, officially, the same as it's always been.

Incidentally, if I ever started to really dislike the game then I would simply stop playing and I'd stop posting on these boards. Unfortunately for many of you that's still a long way off

 

[Sharkith]

The thing is that many of us feel the complete opposite. To some of us (and I've been playing the game since day 1) it has always been about realm versus realm. It's mindless escapism from usually busy lives. Not about demonstrating skill or being highly competitive, but just about the simplest form of relaxation. And your realm was your team that basically you worked with (however loosely). Many people (the majority of whom don't venture onto these boards) have found the erosion of that has meant the game was losing it's appeal - the fact that how we had always played the game came under increasing criticism and belittling as the years went by made it less and less enjoyable. It lost it's simple charm.

So for many of use recent events have been like lancing the boil - and for some of us it is a relief to know that the concept of realm versus realm still exists. That's not to say there isn't room for other playstyles or views of the game (although you wouldn't believe that listening to some), but the essential basis of the game now is, officially, the same as it's always been.

Incidentally, if I ever started to really dislike the game then I would simply stop playing and I'd stop posting on these boards. Unfortunately for many of you that's still a long way off

Nice post Bracken what I think this does for me is expose a fundamental and deep flaw in the game. This is why I started this thread.

Now what if I suggested to you that Mythics next version of RvR should be 'Dark Age of Camelot Rebellion!' in this version you declare your loyality and they turn a proportion of the frontier over to total player control in some places. people and alliances could set up their own realms and others could stick to their own game.... Your realm would really be yours Bracken - what would you think of that?

For me the three realm thing is old stale and unimaginative. It is one of the central things I get from this whole discussion. Here we had someone doing something imaginative and it got slapped down because of the SoTG. I do not deny that they could have expressed it much better but essentially the possibility of a new politics died this week. As an incident goes (setting aside all the useless whine) it exposed something about this game that I found sad. It is simply too restrictive and maybe we should put our heads together and come up with something new for Mythic? Just think about it for a short while what would it look like?

So what do I do when I don't like my game anymore? Maybe I should grasp the nettle and try to change it for the better?

 

[Bracken]

Maybe I should grasp the nettle and try to change it for the better?

The problem is that your definition of better is largely (although not entirely)different from mine. We'll agree on some things (bug fixes, maybe class changes and the like) but what we look for in the game will be fundamentally different.

The problem is that when a game is formed it has a basic concept that draws people. For many, their enjoyment of that basic concept doesn't change, while others seek something "more" or different from it as time goes on. Now if the community is pretty much united in that then it won't be a problem. But when you have a community that is fundamentally split like DAOC then at some point something has to give.

Either the game stays conceptually the same (in which case those who want something more are unhappy) or it fundamentally changes (in which case the "traditionalists" are unhappy). DAOC is a victim of it's own success really in that within certain parameters it caters for many different playstyles or "concepts" so people's expectations have changed in terms of what they want from the game. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on which side of the playstyle fence you sit) the game is still ultimately limited and the basic concept is unchanged (despite all the changes over the years it's still about realm versus realm) - and that is what has come to the fore now. The bottom line is that people will always need to decide whether the game as it is (not how they would like it to be) is something they want to play. Debate might alter some aspects of a game (as we've seen down the years) but in terms of the central concept that is still the basic decision that each player must make.

The idea you put forward for a new game sounds interesting by the way - whatever our disagreements I do believe the community is richer with decent blokes like you in it. It balances out the tossers like me

 

[Conway]

You play a game for fun. When its no longer fun you move on.

It may be hard to let go, because you've invested time and part of yourself in it, but not even life lasts forever.

I'm just thankful I left the week before the big explosion, so I can just skim through events in a spirit of mild disbelief. Vague curiosity about it has kept me reading these forums the extra week or two, but I'm no longer emotionally involved.

 

[Sharkith]

The problem is that your definition of better is largely (although not entirely)different from mine. We'll agree on some things (bug fixes, maybe class changes and the like) but what we look for in the game will be fundamentally different.

The problem is that when a game is formed it has a basic concept that draws people. For many, their enjoyment of that basic concept doesn't change, while others seek something "more" or different from it as time goes on. Now if the community is pretty much united in that then it won't be a problem. But when you have a community that is fundamentally split like DAOC then at some point something has to give.

Either the game stays conceptually the same (in which case those who want something more are unhappy) or it fundamentally changes (in which case the "traditionalists" are unhappy). DAOC is a victim of it's own success really in that within certain parameters it caters for many different playstyles or "concepts" so people's expectations have changed in terms of what they want from the game. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on which side of the playstyle fence you sit) the game is still ultimately limited and the basic concept is unchanged (despite all the changes over the years it's still about realm versus realm) - and that is what has come to the fore now. The bottom line is that people will always need to decide whether the game as it is (not how they would like it to be) is something they want to play. Debate might alter some aspects of a game (as we've seen down the years) but in terms of the central concept that is still the basic decision that each player must make.

The idea you put forward for a new game sounds interesting by the way - whatever our disagreements I do believe the community is richer with decent blokes like you in it. It balances out the tossers like me

Yeah Bracken I do agree that the problem a developer has is making their game apeal to as many people as possible. The practical question is how do you do that?

In my view you can build your strategy on a core - in which case people will eventually move on. Or you can use the variety of views that people generate on the game as the basis for moving forward. I have sympathy for GOA's position here they have had to adopt a utilitarian stance by reacting in the interests of the greater good (it was inevitable). In this case they had to second guess what the greater number of players represent. That is deeply flawed and inadequate for the complexity of the problem at hand. In many ways the game limited them to their choice. In so doing though they lose a sizeable chunk of their population.

Is it possible for a game to 'differentiate' according to playstyle and views of the game rather than remaining stuck within an outdated structure?

 

[Darzil]

I know a lot of people who gave up on RvR or the game because they felt very unwelcome in the frontier. Because they were low realm rank, or because they were 'gimp' classes/specs or just because they weren't known. As a result they felt they couldn't get groups, rarely even getting a 'sorry mate, no room, even'. When they find that people rarely even rezz them (as other groups release on death, they assume so do all others, and 50% power is a big deal to lose), just running over them and leaving them dead, it's often the last straw.

Sadly that's not an easy fix, because realm ranks, specific specs/classes makes a big difference to group performance. And, I'd contest, a MMO will either have little variation in classes (and thus get boring fast), or have this issue.

I also get the feeling that stuff like the RvR forum can really convince people that certain things are right/wrong. I ran past a couple of solo fights in a group the other night. According to FH RvR we were right to ignore them, and I felt virtous that we did. However, what if that wasn't an alb looking for a fair fight, what if it was a lowly RR unbuffed person trying to reach the zerg, jumped by a high RR buffed person? We'd have just ignored a fellow alb getting slaughtered, who would now think our group was uncaring. We'd be part of the problem, in their eyes.

And, whatever people find more fun, realm vs realm rvr is what this game is advertised as. I think it was this, rather than greatest good for the greatest number, which made GOA make that decision. I know a lot of people who would have agreed, that I know, have mostly moved on to other games. They blamed the breakdown of realm vs realm in favour of group vs group.

I play this game because I do like it. I go through periods when I'm not too fussed, and during those I only show up for guild events or special raids. I think a lot of others do the same, which is why though average server numbers have been falling, full guild events and large ML raids are still common. It's because many people are focussed now, rather than just logging on as default. Unfortunately, it also means there are fewer people floating around who would be able to help someone with anything on the spur of the moment.

If you're not enjoying it, either take a break, or consider what you'd really like to do. In the last few weeks we've been targetting epic PvE stuff we've not previously done, as a guild, and doing that one evening a week. We've also done keeptakes at the first three battlegrounds on all the three realms on different servers.

The one thing I'd personally recommend that you don't try to form a rvr guild group. By all means form a guild, or a regular group, but don't try to make a guild consisting of 8 individuals, as this is far too fragile, few make it, and those that don't often leave the game.

Hmm, this is an unfocussed ramble, isn't it ?

Darzil

 

[Javai]

When DaoC came out the 'realm vs realm' with three opposing factions not just two was precisely what was unique about it. It forced a reliance on your realm 'mates' (a term I use lightly) at times when the other realms attacked. It was different from any other pvp type action. It also gives a unique kind of action, which was witnessed this week on Bled bridge, Albs fighting Mids when Hibs arrive to change the dynamic.

A large proportion of the player base have simply carried on playing this as it was born, a realm vs realm game, which was specifically designed to limit communication between opposing realms (hence the Javai says something in a language you don't understand). The growth of shared out of game communication rather killed this aspect of the game as communication between realms became commonplace. Again a large proportion of the player base do not enter into this (FH, IRC, varieties of teamspeak).

I don't think (having read GoAs rsponses) that anything major has changed with the game but rather with what some players want from it. Again, out of game communication is largely to blame. Ask yourself how is it possible that in a mmoRPG the term 'role-player' became an insult?

Even in old frontiers a small group of 'power gamers' (I lack a better term here) used every flaw that was being fixed in Mythic's patches to be as competitive as possible. They made the game alot less fun for the more casual elements but they were few in number compared with the 'zergs' and so even the zerg could win sometimes The number of players wanting to occupy this position grew dramatically (I believe mostly as a result of out of game communications), once it reaches 3 or so groups from each realm feeding off the 'randoms' it stops being fun for those being run over every time without a hope of competing (because they dont have the time for a perfect template, or they don't have teamspeak, or they are nursing a baby while playing, or whatever). The community becomes badly divided and that undermines the very structure of the game which was designed around realm vs realm.

I realise I am not directly answering your quetion about why we continue to play if we dont like it - I do still like it though I am cutting the hours back as I run out of new challenges in gaem. The simple answer is habit (or maybe more strongly addiction). Most of the 'I quit' threads begin with 'I haven't logged in for several weeks'. People don't as rule decide to quit and then disappear, other things take on greater importance and they gradually realise they don't need DaoC anymore. That should occur when it is no longer fun, I can't comment directly on that as only you know if you are having fun in the time you spend in-game. I still do and while I do I will continue playing.

 

[Chronictank]

I don't think (having read GoAs rsponses) that anything major has changed with the game but rather with what some players want from it. Again, out of game communication is largely to blame. Ask yourself how is it possible that in a mmoRPG the term 'role-player' became an insult?

The same way "gank group", or "guild group" was tarred with a bad name, In the US there are Roleplay servers indicating that the normal or "traditional" servers are expected by mythic to have a low level or roleplaying. So it is not a requirement for playing dark age of camelot, nor is it expected for the vast majority of players.

Even in old frontiers a small group of 'power gamers' (I lack a better term here) used every flaw that was being fixed in Mythic's patches to be as competitive as possible. They made the game alot less fun

This is a very narrowminded and quite frankly ignorant view of "power gamers", it was a very small minority of "power gamers" as you put it who are vocal enough to shout their views from the rooftops of their local telekeep.
The same way a very small minority of "casual" gamers did the same trying to enforce their views upon said "power gamer" crowd.

for the more casual elements but they were few in number compared with the 'zergs' and so even the zerg could win sometimes The number of players wanting to occupy this position grew dramatically (I believe mostly as a result of out of game communications),

This point is simply not true, there were gank grps long before comms were used. Groups simply used the chat window instead; how many people remember the "Targetting: %t Assist Me!!", "Healer under attack by .." or "Incoming x" macros. All comms did was take the game to another level (and make it much more personal and enjoyable in my opinion) as it increased communication and speed at which messages were sent.
In or out of game the same things happened and still do happen ableit in a different communication format

once it reaches 3 or so groups from each realm feeding off the 'randoms' it stops being fun for those being run over every time without a hope of competing (because they dont have the time for a perfect template, or they don't have teamspeak, or they are nursing a baby while playing, or whatever).

This point makes no sense, you are suggesting that people who invest more time in the game are not rewarded for it?
The reason these groups had better equipment is because they went out of their way to farm it when others didnt,
The reason they run over people is because they spent more time playing the game so are better (for lack of a better word) than those being run over (equipment, player knowledge etc etc)
In any competative rpg playtime = better equipped characters and more knowledgeable players
This is by game design, irrespective of how people play. The difference was that the people who play alot got the rewards quicker than a casual gamer

It also is a fact that the majority of "zergs" with a purpose were lead by the people you are claiming ruined the game, relic raids, ml's, dungeon raids, keep raids all had a core number of players who reguarly played in said grps.
Ardamel ran grps with FOM, Zoyster was in a gg, herbal was in gg for example

The community becomes badly divided and that undermines the very structure of the game which was designed around realm vs realm.

Realm vs realm does not equal zerg vs zerg, as stated in various discussions.
Daoc was not designed as a purely zerg vs zerg game, if it was there wouldnt be the ability to join a full group

it is exactly people like yourself (dont take this as a attack), who dictate to others how the game should or shouldnt be played who have created such a hostile enviroment. And from your post above you are dictating how the game should be played regardless of whether you preach it to others

Me personally, i got bored of the game so i quit so i cant really comment on "why people play the game they dont like"

 

[Javai]

This is a very narrowminded and quite frankly ignorant view of "power gamers", it was a very small minority of "power gamers" as you put it who are vocal enough to shout their views from the rooftops of their local telekeep.
The same way a very small minority of "casual" gamers did the same trying to enforce their views upon said "power gamer" crowd.

I was (as I indicated) simply using power gamers as a label and not suggesting all power gamers fell into this category.

This point is simply not true, there were gank grps long before comms were used. Groups simply used the chat window instead; how many people remember the "Targetting: %t Assist Me!!", "Healer under attack by .." or "Incoming x" macros. All comms did was take the game to another level (and make it much more personal and enjoyable in my opinion) as it increased communication and speed at which messages were sent.
In or out of game the same things happened and still do happen ableit in a different communication format

I spoke about out of game communication (which includes FH/Barrysworld and IRC). I was not exclusively referring to teamspeak or to the mechanics of what goes on in game.

The reason they run over people is because they spent more time playing the game so are better (for lack of a better word) than those being run over (equipment, player knowledge etc etc)

Yes and the only advantage that the casual player could draw on was weight of numbers which they then are repeatedly berated for.

It also is a fact that the majority of "zergs" with a purpose were lead by the people you are claiming ruined the game, relic raids, ml's, dungeon raids, keep raids all had a core number of players who reguarly played in said grps.
Ardamel ran grps with FOM, Zoyster was in a gg, herbal was in gg for example

I am not claiming anyone 'ruined' the game I am saying they tried to change it into something it was never meant to be. And seriously all the people you list played for less than 50% of the games history. Who do you think has been running MLs, keep raids etc etc for the last 3 years?

Realm vs realm does not equal zerg vs zerg, as stated in various discussions.
Daoc was not designed as a purely zerg vs zerg game, if it was there wouldnt be the ability to join a full group

[/quote]

Nor do I state it has to be zerg vs zerg, my point was that once the realm is divided it undermines the structure of the game from both perspectives. If you actively want to screw over people in the same realm (and there are those in my own realm I would sorely love to do just that to) then you have undermined the realm vs realm nature of the game.

 

[SkarIronfist]

Why do I play the game.....

I belong to very good guild, which has managed to survive a few turblent times and has still remains fun to be with. With old timers popping in out of the game all the time. The guild is always there for people to return to.

I have run a guild/gank group whatever your point of view is. Which has remained continually running for a long long time. We have a good laugh, some storming arguements and continually take the piss out of each other. Some evenings I am sure we could happily murder each other - Of course we have voice comms.

I love killing albs and hibs, it never gets boring. Though I do really miss the groups who have left and are no longer around to fight.

The beauty of the game is ....

You can have a crap evening and then a 20 min spell can turn it into a night that you can talk about for months. As Svenzerk once said ..

"Most of the time we are scratching around with the turkeys, but just sometimes we get to soar with the eagles"

On the subject of teamspeak/ventrilo. There is no reason not to have it nowdays. A reasonable mic/headset is £20.

 

[Sharkith]

once the realm is divided it undermines the structure of the game from both perspectives. If you actively want to screw over people in the same realm (and there are those in my own realm I would sorely love to do just that to) then you have undermined the realm vs realm nature of the game.

Nice post - but what if the realm versus realm thing can no longer accommodate the various ways people are interacting within the game?

What do you do then Javai?

What if the game is unable to cope with the sheer variation human communication brings - in all its forms?

People differ in their interpretations of the game. Thats an undeniable fact. Now you can tell them they are wrong and they should see it just like you or you can try to accommodate those views. GOA and Mythic stick their head in the sand and fail to allow that beautiful variation to emerge and stabalise. Do you see what I am driving at?

What do I do when I think I am just playing counterstrike again.

Who is the idealist the one who thinks we should all stick to 3 realms or the one who knows we will vary in the way we see things and who wants us to be allowed to express that variation?

You cannot stop out of game communication about the game surely?

Why then doesn't Mythic grow with the times it is almost like they don't believe in this product. The realm versus realm thing is simply not flexible enough to allow for the way people interact. Especially in a post cluster world.

 

[Chronictank]

I was (as I indicated) simply using power gamers as a label and not suggesting all power gamers fell into this category.

You are suggesting that a majority are, which is completely wrong as it is a local minority

I spoke about out of game communication (which includes FH/Barrysworld and IRC). I was not exclusively referring to teamspeak or to the mechanics of what goes on in game.

I argue the exact opposite, without forums/irc/etc the casual gamer would never have been invited onto raids and events, the sad fact is that casual gamers are not required to be in raids and such, a few guilds can fairly easily run a even in house/alliance.
So i would go as far as to say that out of games communications helped the game far more than it (supposidly) hindered it

Yes and the only advantage that the casual player could draw on was weight of numbers which they then are repeatedly berated for.

Again a vocal minority, the zerg didnt matter to the vast majority of groups as they would use external comms to fight away from them when such means were developed such as IRC

I am not claiming anyone 'ruined' the game I am saying they tried to change it into something it was never meant to be.

I am putting to you that they didnt try to change anything, simply played the game as they wanted to within the confines of the games ruleset.
They didnt invite casual players into their groups anyway, casual gamers are the ones that tried to emulate said groups as they saw them doing well.
So by follwoing that train of thought surely it is the casual gamers fault?

And seriously all the people you list played for less than 50% of the games history. Who do you think has been running MLs, keep raids etc etc for the last 3 years?

I listed them as a example as they were the main leaders in OF where you state that the problem started.
If you want more examples i ran ML's since toa was released, i would tentatively say that almost all of Midgard/Excaliber (and a percentage of Albion/Prywden) have been on one of my raids (which include Dragon, TG etc etc and various relic raids/retakes/defences) yet i was in a gg.
Bluesky from prywden also ran endless raids, he aslo was in a gg.
Eggy from Alb/Pry ran alot of ML's among other things, he also was in a gg.

Nor do I state it has to be zerg vs zerg, my point was that once the realm is divided it undermines the structure of the game from both perspectives.

I dont actually know what your getting at, could you please elaorate

If you actively want to screw over people in the same realm (and there are those in my own realm I would sorely love to do just that to) then you have undermined the realm vs realm nature of the game.

I fail to see where this comes from there are people who are doing this in both camps

 

[Javai]

Who is the idealist the one who thinks we should all stick to 3 realms or the one who knows we will vary in the way we see things and who wants us to be allowed to express that variation?

If you look at the most vocal of those leaving the cluster/game it seems to be those who have repeatedly tried to mould the game to how they wanted it to be played. It's rather like the woman who marries a guy and thinks she can change him - it usually ends in divorce.


I don't see anyone not allowing the variation to be expressed but I do see that some parts of the community are hit harder by say 16 people leaving than are others. This again throws the differences into sharp focus.

I can't offer solutions, in part because I don't understand the problem that those who are vocally leaving actually have with the game. It seems easy to place blame on an incident than to say well I'm bored now. Of course a new server will ease boredom for a while because it's new and there are new people to play with but it remains to be seen if any of the alternatives have lasting appeal.

 

[Chronictank]

If you look at the most vocal of those leaving the cluster/game it seems to be those who have repeatedly tried to mould the game to how they wanted it to be played.

incorrect tbh, if people were bored of the game they would quit completely not swap to another sever.
They are bored of the server/disagree with the way they are run

Also its not only the most vocal, prime example being SH leaving as a guild to go to the US

 

[Javai]

I dont actually know what your getting at, could you please elaorate

I fail to see where this comes from there are people who are doing this in both camps

And that is exactly my point. It comes from both 'camps' but it fundamentally undermines the structure of the game which is designed around the idea that everyone in a realm is on the same side. A whole range of things have undermined it - even going back as far as public Sidi raids where at one time some leaders wanted to place a rr5+ requirement on rolling for the best drops, then followed up into ToA where certain guild groups would ignore those gathering to do an artifact and do it themselves. All these things have divided the community and undermined any sense of a shared 'realm' spirit and once that has gone the raison d'etre of the game structure goes with it.

 

[Javai]

incorrect tbh, if people were bored of the game they would quit completely not swap to another sever.
They are bored of the server/disagree with the way they are run

Also its not only the most vocal, prime example being SH leaving as a guild to go to the US

As I said, it remains to be seen if they stay at the alternative once the novelty of new players/characters and realms has worn off. If it does indeed last in the long term then I will be the first to admit I was wrong in this regard - I also stated I don't understand the reasoning of this group so I may indeed be completely wrong I was assessing it purely from an outsiders point of view. I'm afraid as a social scientist I do not accept the public reasons given for action at face value.

 

[Sharkith]

All these things have divided the community and undermined any sense of a shared 'realm' spirit and once that has gone the raison d'etre of the game structure goes with it.

Javai,

I am a social scientist too - PM me if you want the details. I would not care so much if it wasn't for my discipline. I also use that to understand this whole thing and its why I put so much time into trying to help mediate things. LOL and I try to escape the job in this game too.

What is a realm though? What is the community? There are multiples of each and those loose groups constantly change their memberships and lose and gain members. Now we can continue to think of this as groups of people or look at what they are communicating and see if that can be utilised productively.

Now in communication terms what is shortly going to happen on your server (not mine anymore) is that there will be a distinct narrowing of the variety of views communicated on the server. The server might become more harmonious but the game experience will narrow. Largely because one group has all but deserted the server and decided it might be better served elsewhere. Thats quite sad. It has had an effect on other parts of the game too because most of us were also soloers and took part in zerg warfare and sieges.

Now options to express the game are narrowing in game experience is likely to become less varied and potentially lass rewarding. Players cannot move into FG rvr as easily or it won't be as much fun.

All the reductions in variety of behaviour and communication are bad. Trying to get everyone to just be one homogenous realm is denying the very variation that makes the game interesting.

 

[OohhoO]

On the subject of teamspeak/ventrilo. There is no reason not to have it nowdays. A reasonable mic/headset is £20.

This is a very narrow minded attitude imo.
There are any number of reasons why people either don't use or don't want to use comms-software, from other family-members persuing other activities in the same room & not wanting to be disturbed, through destruction of character immersion in what is after all an RPG, through the wish to retain a degree of anonymity... there are many many many possible reasons. What you're really saying is that there are in your opinion no valid reasons not to use voice-comms, & unwillingness to accept the validity of other people & their desires is a big part of the current problem.

Personally I think I've seen DAoC from pretty much all sides. I've been GM in a guild with over a hundred members at DAoCs beginnings, I've been a member of a good GG back in OF, but nowadays I really only PvE (like almost all the other players I know on Hib & Mid) as the pace of modern RvR is too fast & the discrepancies between high & low RR are just to great to be overcome. It's just no fun in its current incarnation. Oh, & I don't use voice-comms for a variety of reasons which for me are all valid.

I carry on in the (probably vain) hope that one day RvR will be made enjoyable again for normal people, not just for the l33t d00ds, but I am currently ->||<- this close to finally calling it a day.

 

[AngelHeal]

the real reason sharkith can't stop:

he know's all of NFD will abuse his characters if he does!

 

[Lamp]

I go through phases with DAOC. I've recently come back after an 18 month break, am focusing on just my Armsman at the mo, and am enjoying it very much, I gotta be honest.

What I would like to see (apart from the usual class issues etc) is:
(1) Home land invasion: the possibility to actually overrun realm keeps (eg. Castle Sauvage) and venture inside enemy realms.
(2) Frontier realms: as someone mentioned above, the possibility to set up your own keeps/boundaries within NF to extend the NF playing dynamic.

 

[Dukat]

I've recently come back for a short period of time after retiring in may, I was shocked to see how much has changed since then, suddenly things seem to be going down hill fast.

I played the game because it was an oppotunity for competition in an interesting and engrossing format.

When I first started I was a casual player, however apon reaching a level where I could join in RvR, I never really liked the group scene. I began to play my scout almost exclusively, because I only had to depend on myself - In a group I had to depend on others, and conversely others had to depend on me. Any mistake I made would/could end up getting the other 7 group mates killed.

This is originally why I got into the solo scene. I actually started at lvl 45, got to RR3 before lvl 50 because I liked it so much. I've always preferred soloing because you can go AFK when you want, you dont have to wait for others when they AFK and you can go where you want, when you want.

I became addicted to the solo scene. I'm not sure if I was ever really any good, but I stuck at it and enjoyed it and got to know the popular faces, and they got to know me.

It became a social scene, going out and fighting people like Gear and VF in one on ones, people who were arguably some of the best players on the server, I admit it felt good to beable to win every once in a while, but more importantly it was competition, I was doing everything I could to win but there was still respect there, we would stand looking at eachother, stealthed, while a fullgroup of either side was not 10 feet away, either one of us could pop the other and 'win', but we'd stand there and wait for the fg to go, then /bow and fight it out.

I never really got into the irc side of things untill a couple of months before I quit, but it was the fun of going out on your own and seeing what would happen this time that made it worth while for me, the chance encounters, the close fights. Some philosopher once said "the best way to get to know someone is to fight them", and even through the wires and distance of the internet, even through the unreality of a computer game, I still believe that holds true.

I only came back for a couple of days, maybe a week, but the game has changed too much in a way, too many friends have gone and there is too much nastiness about now for it to be enjoyable anymore, this ain't the DAoC I got addicted to

 

[SkarIronfist]

This is a very narrow minded attitude imo.
There are any number of reasons why people either don't use or don't want to use comms-software, from other family-members persuing other activities in the same room & not wanting to be disturbed, through destruction of character immersion in what is after all an RPG, through the wish to retain a degree of anonymity... there are many many many possible reasons. What you're really saying is that there are in your opinion no valid reasons not to use voice-comms, & unwillingness to accept the validity of other people & their desires is a big part of the current problem.
.

I think you are over reacting, reading far more in to what was a simple statement. I play Group RVR (Though there are not many of them left), as my post indicated. I an not an RPGer or a Soloer.

From my point of view cost is not an option for not going onto Vent/teamspeak.

For group RVR the time lag in comms for typing is just not acceptable for my type of DAOC RVR - you have every right to think that is harsh, but that is the way it is. I have no problem with people not speaking in comms. As long as they can listen and act, and maybe utter the occassionally "Inc Behind".

Also please dont infer from what I said things I haven't. As I have said many many times, people pay they own subs and people can play the way they want. If people choose not to use voice comms, that is their choice.

Voice comms will become more common in games of this ilk and it will always be up to the player if they choose to use it.

The game changes and thats the way it is. If it doesn't change, it dies even quicker.

How is the use of voice comms, part of the current problem. It is merely a tool. Once one group started using it, it spread rapidly.

I will not deny that RRs/RAs make a huge difference. But they are in the game and that is it. Having certain combination of characters is jist as important.

 

[OohhoO]

I didn't say the use of voice-comms itself was part of the problem, but I think in a way it actually is. It's part of what makes modern RvR so ultra-competetive & therefore exclusive, when what RvR needs to be is inclusive, i.e. to include as large a part of the games population as possible. It also removes the RPG element, which effectively turns the game into Dark Age of Counterstrike.

Competetive exclusive systems end up extrapolating to There Can Only Be One, & I doubt any of us want that.

The problem with RvR being exclusive as opposed to inclusive is that the people at the bottom end of the food chain tend to drop out, as they're unable to compete. & yes I know there are dozens of you out there who can get from RR1 to RR5 in an evening without even using your right hand but the fact remains that a lot of people don't RvR because they never get anything out of it except rezz-sickness.

I don't really have any answers to this problem. It's no use giving a RR1 toon 100'000'000 RPs for a kill when they're never going to get any kills, & we all know how much fun it is getting repeatedly farmed by some RR10+ Sorc with a DI3 bot. Ideally an inclusive system would reward participation in RvR as well as success in RvR, but I doubt the l33td00dz would ever be able to accept that, even if it meant more cannonfodder for them to gank, & it would probably be hard to make it unexpoitable.

 

[Ctuchik]

Also please dont infer from what I said things I haven't. As I have said many many times, people pay they own subs and people can play the way they want. If people choose not to use voice comms, that is their choice.

no, acually its not their choise anymore. not if they want anything that even resembles "good" groups.

think about it. how many hardcore rvr groups will invite someone who refuse to use voice comms for one reason or another?

me, i dont use those programs for the simple fact that i dont wanna hear a guy thats on the breaking point to get his "man voice" while playing a female toon. it totally and utterly destroys everything i have left when it comes to the RPG factor in this game.

/edit: and your statement about "the game changes" is also false, the GAME havent changed that much (ok that sounds wrong but take it the way its meant, not the way it sounds). its YOU whos changing the way you play.

 

[SkarIronfist]

The problem with RvR being exclusive as opposed to inclusive is that the people at the bottom end of the food chain tend to drop out, as they're unable to compete. & yes I know there are dozens of you out there who can get from RR1 to RR5 in an evening without even using your right hand but the fact remains that a lot of people don't RvR because they never get anything out of it except rezz-sickness.

I started my main char, or what is my main char when it came out (Anyone remember when BDs arrived). I made RR6 on solo. In the days when 20K in week would make me very happy. I stuck at it (Much to my partners annoyance). From RR6 - 11, its all been group work.

I am in total agreement that its an unfair system, which punishes the lower RRs and forces them to hug bridges and travel in zergs for protection (Its often a conversation we have in ventrilo). The only way around it would be maintain the ranking system and lose the RAs (Its abit late in the day for that). But that would effect all, and we would be back to he who mez's 1st wins. Since we would be in a total lock down situation.