When is too far, too far?

[Tom]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress2.shtml

lolz

 

[old.D0LLySh33p]

Was more a smile than laugh out loud.

 

[nath]

Originally posted by *Exor*
I'm allowed to break the law as far as I am concerned. I pay tax, therefore I part own the government. Seeing as war protestors are all unemployed, or students, I have many more rights than they do.

I pay tax, and I wash, and I don't break the law. Much.

 

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by Gef
Anyone know where I can find some reports from that Iraqi minister bloke? They make me giggle ..

From Sky News again...

Comical Ali


Best of Comical Ali

 

[Gef]

Sky News
"There is no presence of American infidels in the city of Baghdad," he declared to journalists on the roof of the Palestine Hotel as gunfire echoed across the city and tanks fired from the banks of the Tigris just a few hundred yards away.

As the audience of bemused reporters pointed out the fierce firefight across the river, he continued: "There is no presence of the American columns in the city of Baghdad at all. We besieged them and we killed most of them."

"Today, the tide has turned,'' he continued confidently. "We are destroying them."

Absolute classic, you have got to admire his bottle..

 

[maxi--]

did anyone hear??


they killed osama bin laden!!

yes siree, dead as the preverbial.

i saw it on the news about 8 months ago!!

 

[nath]

lol.

Saddam is dead. They bombed him in Iraq. They were monitoring his mobile phone. He decided to meet up with all of his inner circle peeps at a restaurant. When there's a war on. When all of them are wanted dead by America. So they bombed the restaurant and killed all the bad men of Iraq. Because they were all in a public place at the same time. Har har Saddam, u aer teh fick.

Sheesh.

 

[xane]

When you look at those pictures of those people jumping up and down on the statue tonight, just remember those people will still be alive tomorrow, and will be living the rest of their lives with their families.

It might be strange as we all take it for granted we can shout and scream obscenities and hatred against our own leaders without fear of reprisals, but for those people it's a refreshingly new experience.

Keep bragging on how "inefficient" the American foreign and military policy is, but for me seeing those pictures it was "job done".

I hope it will continue and not revert back.

 

[nath]

I truely hope all goes well in Iraq. The war was still illegal, wrong, and is likely to have serious unforseen consequences. Just because the Iraqis (some/most) are happy about the outcome of this war, doesn't make it justifiable. This thing goes deeper than that.

Originally posted by xane
When you look at those pictures of those people jumping up and down on the statue tonight, just remember those people will still be alive tomorrow, and will be living the rest of their lives with their families.

And for the record, that's propaganda right there. "Look at all the happy people, forget about everything else!"

 

[dysfunction]

How is it illegal exactly??? Can you explain this one to me??

 

[nath]

The UN did not give the war the go ahead. Claiming res 1441 made it legal is clutching at straws. "1441 is not an automatic trigger for war". We've been through this before.

 

[xane]

What is wrong with you nath, it's not propaganda, it is happening now. People _are_ stamping on a statue, in what would have been a death warrant a few weeks ago.

 

[nath]

Propaganda is not lies, necessarily. It's a way of looking at the truth that clouds other more important factors.

 

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by nath
The UN did not give the war the go ahead. Claiming res 1441 made it legal is clutching at straws. "1441 is not an automatic trigger for war". We've been through this before.

Its not clutching at straws...its a reality that makes it legal. The 2nd Resolution was not required for them to go to war.

But as you have said we've beaten this horse to death already

 

[xane]

Originally posted by nath
Propaganda is not lies, necessarily. It's a way of looking at the truth that clouds other more important factors.

You don't consider freedom of political expression important then ?

 

[nath]

What exactly is ambiguous about "1441 is not an automatic trigger for war, the UN will be consulted first"

They were, and yet the UN did not give the go ahead.. why is that?

And anyway, 1441 is only about WoMD, and it's patently obvious this war has nothing to do with them.

edit: xane, of course it is. I think there are more important factors we need to worry about though. It's looking at the entire situation with rose tinted specs. "Oh look, it's fantastic the Iraqi people are free and so it was all worthwhile". Well, yeah it's fantastic but at what cost? That remains to be seen.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by nath
It's looking at the entire situation with rose tinted specs.

As opposed to the jet black ones you seem to have on ?

What did you say when the Berlin Wall came down ?

"I suppose someones going to have to clear all that rubble away now" ?

Everything has a "cost", I don't belittle the human cost in any way, I wish the world's problems could be solved without death and destruction, but they can't, as far as I am concerned there was a much greater "cost" in keeping Saddam in power, unless you were French or Russian, in which case you have a nice fat oil contract to settle your guilt.

 

[nath]

So hold on, what was this war about? WoMD or freeing the Iraqi people?


edit: and the cost I'm talking about is not merely human life. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't think that war is never acceptable but I think in this case there was absolutely no call for it. America had their own interests in mind and have shown that they can go to war without the UN to exploit their own goals. This is one of the things I'm worried about.

 

[xane]

Regime change.

 

[nath]

Regime change was not our mandate. Hence illegal.

 

[Wij]

Actually it doesn't really matter whether they find any WMDs. They failed to meet 1441's requirements to account for all Iraq's banned weapons. Saddam must have been pretty lax if he destroyed them all but forgot to get any evidence, or just couldn't be arsed to present it.

 

[nath]

I say again. Violation of UN security council resolution 1441 was not an automatic trigger for war. Circumstances had to be considered. They were. Saddam was not an immediate threat. War was not the answer.


p.s. I know as well as anyone that Saddam was fucking everyone around. "What weapons, we have no weapons, oh those weapons, well that's the last of the lot.. there's no more.. oh yeah? prove it then!" It was all some big game, the fact that he was fucking everyone around was not a valid excuse for an enforced regime change.

 

[Wij]

Obviously it was.

 

[nath]

For the US/UK it obviously was. My point is, it was illegal. Whether you think it was worth breaking internation law to deal with that, is a judgement call. I think absolutely not.

 

[Wij]

I think you'll find that the law in this area is far from clear-cut.

 

[nath]

The fact that the UN didn't say "go bomb the shit out of them then" is enough for me.

Of course nothing will be done about it, America violated human rights back at guantanamo bay, nothing was done. "no no, it's all legal.. they're unlawful combatants!!".

..


"no no, it's all legal.. he's ever such a mean man! Besides, we're the good guys, remember?"

 

[xane]

Regime change was the endorsement for the war, viz a viz the US/UK governments, not the UN, that is the context in which I answered.

The "automatic trigger" argument does not discount war entirely, there is no mention of a second resolution either in 1441.

If you want to argue legally, then because Iraq was in violation of Resolution 687 (1991) then the ceasefire outlined did not apply, and this is simply a continuation of hostilities.

 

[xane]

Originally posted by nath
Of course nothing will be done about it, America violated human rights back at guantanamo bay, nothing was done. "no no, it's all legal.. they're unlawful combatants!!".

I bow to the the champion of "human rights" then.

Gonna detail Iraq's violations next ? Have we got enough disk space on the forum server for that ?

 

[Durzel]

Originally posted by nath
Propaganda is not lies, necessarily. It's a way of looking at the truth that clouds other more important factors.

No it isn't. Propaganda is quite simply the process by which bias is placed on information according to the agenda of the party disseminating said information. Just because the BBC et al don't continually focus on the negative aspects of the war (i.e. civilian deaths, etc) as you and others seem to, doesn't make it propoganda. It's neither lies or truths either - what is a "truth" at the end of the day? Often its a moral intepretation of an event. Note the key word "interpretation"...

The fact of the matter is todays events illustrated that whilst it would be foolhardy to say that every single Iraqi is overjoyed, a significant majority of them really are elated and "liberated". This in it of itself kinda puts the whole "where are the WoMDs" argument in the shade.

The argument about whether the US/UK has the right to get involved in other countries human affairs, and intervene in cases of human rights abuse is a whole other debate really.

Incidentally, this whole concept of "illegal war". I didn't realise the UN was the governing body over the entire human race? Realistically (whether you accept it or not) there is nothing stopping a country waging war on another country, a people or a race. It's certainly not "illegal" in the sense of the word you're implying.

This is basically how I see things at the moment:

- Dictatorship that has had a history of genocide against its own race and neighbours has been deposed
- A nation (both pro/anti Saddam/regime) is being liberated, and is grateful for this liberation.
- WoMD or significant agents that could be used in terrorist attacks being confiscated.

You can call that propoganda if you want, but I find it hard to imagine how you could possibly coerse all of the Iraqi people shown on TV today - cheering, chanting "Death to Saddam" and stamping on the bronze effogy that was pulled down.

 

[nath]

I never suggested that they had been coerced, I'm sure they're very happy. I'm glad of this. I think it's absurd to say "oh, as long as the Iraqis are happy it's alright then". This war, it's legality and consequences is not only about Iraq.