What's up with Teamleader reports and the demanding?

[Tigerius]

This concerns mostly those who commonly read the class teamleader reports as posted on VN boards. And no I won't be arsed discussing it with the yanks.

For those not familiar with what the teamleaders do they are players appointed as head of gathering facts and opinions on a specific class and summarizing suggested balance changes and bug fixes in regular reports to Mythic. Found here

Been reading the reports for a long time but just got ticked off now and felt I needed to speak up on it It seems like some TLs including Thane and (in my subjective opinion) my own Cleric TL are bargaining for very litte, mostly asking for bug fixes and fixings of the gimp specs noone uses as well as some better definitions of what the class is meant to be able to do, in the Cleric case we got Smite nerfed officially because we could melee too well which sort of raises interest how melee is to go hand in hand with our defensive (healing) duty. But anyway lets not get into specifics. I'm definately subjective here but reading TL reports from for instance Berserker and Eldritch it upsets me a bit at how they many times ask for 2 digit list of improvements and paint their class out well black or make odd comparisons not taking other abilities into account. A classic is reading the Skald TL asking for Skald specific RA to be turned into Blademaster Unique TW except for all group lol.

Now I might have misunderstood things and maybe the TLs are meant to put their classes in a bad light and act as whining promotors trying to get as much loving as possible, I guess it makes a bit of sense since so it is after all a subjective and loyal player of the class writing it. I however thought they were meant to give a fair picture of the class and raise real issues not what it needs to own. If the first suggestion is true then I sure as hell don't have the right TL

Anyway just some thoughts here, mainly looking for some non-flaming input.

 

[Ragnarok1978]

I generally only visit the valut forusm when I need some specific information, not anything else. Reason? The whining there is unbearable.

The TL is supposed to act as a "spokesman" for the player to mythic, however mythic have hugely cut back on the "listening" to the TLs. Wether this is due to them focussing on other things than class balance, such as realm abilities, PvP server or expansion, I dunno, but it reflects in the TL reports.

The longer the TL has to go w/o any feedback or changes made, the more whining he has to listen to from other users, and he has to reflect that in his report.

Once one thing about your class pisses you off, you can easily find a few other things and a list quickly goes from 1-3 minor improvements, to 12. The more that whine about more issues, the more he has to put in his report.

I played a berserker myself on US, and back in the beginning the berserker did indeed have some problems regarding damage done vs. own defence and general lack of uniqueness. Back then they started buffing left axe, better hit % (We swung all the time, but missed a huge part), better damage and then they added our ability to go "berserk" and I also believe they did something about out evade, not sure tho.

Back then I was very happy with the changes, and I started really enjoying my berserker, and to me they were pretty decent and didn't really need all those changes anymore, but apparently those playing the zerk don't think so if you judge from the Tl report.

I am not saying that no classes are gimped or in need of heavy tweaking, some are (Just look at the classes played on PvP server for example). But generally I think a large part of it is Mythic's own fault in the way they designed the game.

DAoC is designed primarily for making 45+ and go for RvR/PvP as end-game. Why do I say that? Well DAoC lacks roleplaying depth, there are no monthly based storyline or epic events like for example Asheron's Call had, instead it takes the First Person Shooter angle on the game: Go to the frontier, and get as many frags as you can. Alot of support classes feel left out in RvR, and I can't blame them cause they don't make marginally as good RP as the rest of the classes.

Anyways floating of topic here, so gonna turn back, not that the above doesn't mean I don't like DAoC, I like it alot

The way I see it, the main problem with TL reports is, they have to reflect the attitude that:
My class should do well solo in PvE
My class should do well in grouping in PvE
My class should do well in solo RvR
My class should do well in group RvR
My class should do well in solo PvP
My class should do well in group PvP

Not just a few of the above, but all of them, and that just can't be done.

 

[HargloweHyfryd]

Just my view of "our" teamlead (Ionait): she is doing a great job and manages to filter unreasonable requests out.

The reports she makes are usually very balanced.

 

[-Lonewolf-]

From reading the boards alot I think most of the Team Leaders feel their 'real' requests fall on deaf ears and nothing is really considered so the will to try and raise it continously is stifled, sad I know but only logical reason I can come with this early in the morning

 

[Flimgoblin]

I don't think they suggest everything there and expect it to get implemented... some will suggest 10000 things to change hoping they get 1 or two, others will just say 'these are the problems that really need fixing'

 

[klavrynd]

TL's do a great job and give Mythic a nice little report with everything that might need some tweaking so they don't need to go through the endless whinetreads (which they obviously don't) .

I think that you need to have played a class to know it's pross and cons and to see what the TL is talking about.


Garock, the berserker TL does a great deal of testing, he has 2 lvl 50 zerks and some thid toons. He does spend alot of time doing tests, gets tons of input from the community and works together with various other TL's

Finally berserkers are getting a bit on-par with the other classes but still there's little issues that need fixing.

If you look at albion TL reports , they might not have the huge list the zerk one has, but the things they ask are just exaggerated, in order to get a well tweaked-down version of what they ask
(eg 15s stun for minstrels)


ps : ragnarok1978 i take it it has been ages since you played a berserker in rvr , because a lot has changed things like lowered doublefrost and aurora borealis damage, decreased critrange on berserk mode, the hideous vendo skin,...

 

[old.Lianuchta]

I think aphexplot (Eld TL) is doing a great job, althoguh Mythic don't a blind bit of notice. In that TL report he doesn't ask for all the ideas he lists (and the bolt issue would affect all three bolt casters equally, and would make a lot of people happy), he throws up some ideas to Mythic and tries to get one or two to stick.

And Void is a dead spec on the US servers. Just about everyone has respecced out of it. This should tell Mythich something is wrong with the spec, and that it needs fixing in some way of form...

 

[Ragnarok1978]

Originally posted by flugo
ps : ragnarok1978 i take it it has been ages since you played a berserker in rvr , because a lot has changed things like lowered doublefrost and aurora borealis damage, decreased critrange on berserk mode, the hideous vendo skin,...

As I said, I played a zerk on US, I played US for about 2-3 months before stopping and waiting for the euro release. The vendo skin was added when I played, however the nerfs weren't (Nerfs that were probably spawned from SBs having excactly the same LA styles as zerks, making them too powerfull, but I dunno).

The initial changes they made to zerks brougt them on decent par with other classes imo, but if they nerfed them since, well the obviously they've become weak again.

However I had RR3L3 on my zerk before I left, and they weren't more gimped in RvR than a warrior was back then. Sure arrows hurt like hell but I killed enemies twice as fast as any equal warrior could, and if I got berzerk off in a zergclash, w/o being mezzed, I felt I was uber

But I can only speak of what it was like around 9 months ago, and the game has developed pretty much since then. The point of it was, that 9 months ago mythic listened, and changes were made to alot of classes all the time. Then the players of those classes took the time to explore their new and more satisfying class, and the whining went to a minimum. But it would probably only be a matter of time before they'd start whining about something else.

As far as I can see it, including frmo TL reports, noone is really satisfied with their class. They want the best of the best in any given situation, and perhaps mythic decided that enough was enough and cut down on the changes in order to no "spoil" anyone.

But as I said, some classes may still need some tweaking to not come out as weak in the overall picture, but several classes are already good enough (if not even more than good enough).

And I still think mythic do react, I wonder how long it will be before they start nerfing infiltrators dragonfang because it seems to be one of the biggest issues atm. They just don't react as much as they used to, but they could very well have their own valid reasons not to...

 

[Kagato.]

It doesn't matter really.

I love the TL reports, alot of them are very well written.

But has it changed anything?

We have had TL reports around for ages now, has there been ONE problem fixed in response to a TL Report yet ? I keep checking patch note after patch note and havent seen one bloody thing done thats been suggested by any of the class TL's i've checked.

They are just Mythics way of appearing to listen whilst completely ignoring the issues pressented in them. Until Mythic actually listen to the TL's nothing is going to improve for any class.

 

[Tigerius]

Kagato: well very recently Bards got changed so they don't use Emp at all just Cha which I believe is something the Bard TL has wanted for long, that only leaves him wanting a dex/qui double buff as compensation for having Emp as secondary stat

Lian: There are tons of classes with fully dead speclines and while I'm not saying they can't deserve to have one, the balance you request out of a 3rd line must very much be measured to the strength of the other 2 lines. This was Clerics overpowering (if any), that all 3 lines worked brilliantly even on lower spec and could be combined alot.

Flugo: I should have pointed this out by raising a Alb TL report as bad but I'm not applying any direct intra-realm subjectiveness here and saying no Alb TLs overdo the reports. Though overall I DO find Alb classes less balanced though so

Ragnarok: Nice description, probably hits spot on yeah.

I guess the answer is that, too many things that have gone unheard so it's a sort of bargaining for alot so you will atleast get alittle approach, lots of people to satisfy of course, lots of different situations in which they want the class perfect. Still upsets me though

 

[Stekkerdoos]

can anybody tell me if there is a TL for theurgists?? i havent seen any reports yet, or a really really old one

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Kagato.
It doesn't matter really.

I love the TL reports, alot of them are very well written.

But has it changed anything?

We have had TL reports around for ages now, has there been ONE problem fixed in response to a TL Report yet ? I keep checking patch note after patch note and havent seen one bloody thing done thats been suggested by any of the class TL's i've checked.

They are just Mythics way of appearing to listen whilst completely ignoring the issues pressented in them. Until Mythic actually listen to the TL's nothing is going to improve for any class.

Earth wizard specs, bard empathy, 'charge' (finally), camoflague for archers.

Thane damage improved, Friar dex/qui issues fixed. Shaman improved, more stuff put in Sorceror matter line/Spiritmaster lines. Endurance chant for paladins, paladin chant range increased.

they do stuff, they don't do it all, they don't do enough (imho) but they do some things.

 

[old.Lianuchta]

Originally posted by Tigerius
Lian: There are tons of classes with fully dead speclines and while I'm not saying they can't deserve to have one, the balance you request out of a 3rd line must very much be measured to the strength of the other 2 lines. This was Clerics overpowering (if any), that all 3 lines worked brilliantly even on lower spec and could be combined alot.

Yep but Light blows chunks as a primary spec (who needs anything more than a 45% range debuff), and approx 80% of the Elds on the US servers are now PBAE monkeys, which leads to the recent nerf calls against PBAEers. If Void (and Light, but Void is what I am specced as) was slightly more interesting/useful/viable (only decent things are GTAE and a crappy mez breaker of an AE), then we wouldn't have people getting fried by 25 manabombers in keeps...

 

[aphexplotz]

Interesting Discussion...

Since i'm explicitly mentioned twice in this thread, I feel I should comment.

A couple things to point out. First and foremost, mythic DOES listen to us. That is the first and most blatant misconception that people have about the team leads. If i felt my reports were falling on deaf ears, I wouldnt bother. The reason that this doesnt seem abundantly clear is that there are certain things that go in reports that will stay there for months without being addressed. Now, for the player of a certain class, these little things are a big deal, and they persist every time that person logs on. We see these things because we play the class.

Now, Imagine this times 33.

Nobody can know everything about every class, every annoying detail, bug, workaround, trick, spec combo or playstyle. Its impossible. I have trouble keeping track of this for a single class, as well as trying to keep tabs on other similar classes such as wizards and runemasters. So each of us, the team leads, write a report that centers around what we feel are the most important issues for our specific class. These should, if we do our jobs right, mimic the wants of the playerbase.

So each of these reports are broken down in to bullets, and squashed in to one big report, that is used as a tool for identifying problems.

Sometimes, problems are known, but there jsut isnt a good way to fix it. Sometimes a fix in one place may screw up something in a seemingly unrelated place. Sometimes newly introduced fixes have to work themselves out before anything new can be added. Existing bugs often take time to identify and fix. Its better to allow a bug thats annoying, than to try and fix it and break the game entirely. It may suck, but its reality.

Sometimes our suggestions are a great idea... but the developers dont have time to dedicate to implementing it. Sometimes our great ideas would greatly skew realm balance, or seriously step on another class' toes. We may not always realize this, but it has to be taken in to careful consideration. I try to make my reports as unbiased as possible, but thats impossible. I'm never going to be able to do that and i know it. Thats where our balance with the other TLs comes in. We often debate subjects in to the ground amongst ourselves. Usually, if a suggestion is questionable, its probably not going to fly. But there's always exceptions. Putting something up against someone who it could directly affect also brings up certain points that normally wouldnt arise when dealing with realmmates, or people in your own class. Also a very important idea to remember.

The team leads act not just as a social barometer, but a damage filter. A large amount of problems are caught before they become too serious, or not so serious problems are pointed out and fixed without a spotlight fixed on each little detail.

Look at any patch, push any new content aside and 90% of what you're left with came from the suggestion of a team lead. You may not think it, but often changes that are made resulted from an internal debate/discussion... regardless, we have a HUGE impact.

I make myself very available to the community for suggestions, I have a dedicated email account just for TL stuff. People have pointed out some downright stupid things that were in my TL report. Its good to get some fresh eyes and some fresh ideas now and again. I care more about the reasons people disagree with me than they agree with me. I know why they agree with me, thats not a hard one to figure out... but people sometimes have really good reasons for disagreeing with me. So good, in fact, that they make me change my mind.

And on a final note, Lian, thanks for the support ;-) I appreciate it.


-----------------------
Aphexplotz
Eldritch Team lead

 

[old.Charonel]

interesting, i was kinda under the impression that these boards (and the euro servers as a whole) were basically ignored by anything to do with ongoing development...

funny to see a TL actually reads here

 

[Fex]

I think the Shammie TL doesn't know how to type

 

[old.Arnor]

Tigerius: Cry me a river


Garock does one HELL of a job. Cudos to him and all hail the great Garock

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by Fex
I think the Shammie TL doesn't know how to type

not all the team leads post to VN boards... they're not required to.

In fact the old shaman TL just passed on the torch..
http://daoc.catacombs.com/index.cfm?Forum_thread=2&forum_pagenum=2

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm a low level zerkie and i don't see why the other zerkers say that they don't hit hard? At my level, i can outdamage any viking class..*shrugs* They be using a stick to hit opponents?

 

[klavrynd]

get to 50, then judge

only thing we hit hard are infils, and that ends next patch

 

[old.Tohtori]

Okkie. I'll get back to you after i get 50. But at the moment i don't complain, ofcourse more damage would be nice..but then again...Runie would be fun with an axe and a shield as well.

 

[old.chesnor]

Originally posted by flugo
get to 50, then judge

only thing we hit hard are infils, and that ends next patch

Ermmm, lies ?

Explain why its only Infils (my caster friends always tell me how poor the dmg zerkers do to them is....NOT)

Really, you can't say stuff like this without explaining yuorself. Why is a zerkers dmg at lvl50 poor, please explain.

/me hopes this isn't another doublefrost nerf whine.

 

[old.Arnor]

Zerks peak at lvl 34, then its a bit downhill, but seriously, I have few complaints about my zerker

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by flugo
get to 50, then judge

only thing we hit hard are infils, and that ends next patch

*coughs*

zerkers hit like a truck - and that's not including the frenzy.

They do so much more than mercenarys.
Just the left axe styles alone are a good bit more damaging (over time! this isn't just 2.2 speed versus 4.2 here).

 

[Tigerius]

Arnor: That zerks go slightly downhill in damage from Mid to High level seems established but at High level does your damage really leave you in a poor position? Some apparently think so. I know zerker damage shifts alot from zerker to zerker and yes the screenshots that leak out to us common men are the top end ones but bollocks that they are low in damage, bollocks that other realm classes can achieve the same regular damage with the same speed weapons.

 

[klavrynd]

Explain why its only Infils (my caster friends always tell me how poor the dmg zerkers do to them is....NOT)

infils wear leather and leather is vulnerable to slash (pre 1.52) so you actually get "decent" damage off. (350+ on mainhand i consider decent for infils, 200+ for all others)

Even though you hoped it wasn't a doublefrost whine , it is one of the main factors.

we do wear shite armor, 2h warriors and thanes outdamage us and the only style that was actually quite nice for an alltime got nerfed to hell and back again, and costed as much end as before (20% per hit wasn't uncummon). for some reason i dont twoslap or threeslap casters, and hit them for the same amount as they nuke me for in very rare occasions in "nuke-cc-nuke-me-im-fluffy" mode.

call me a doomsayer but zerks die partially in 1.52, even though they do get quite some nice stuff (advanced evade, cheapo IP/Purge), the new armor table is taking away the infilkiller possibilities we now have, and we get champs and hero's in return (with new champ buff/debuff and heroes that can't seem to die).

1.53 totally kills zerkers (and prolly all dual wielding classes) with increased block/parry/evade rates so no more alb tanks that were neutral and hib tanks , well, it's hard actually hitting a shieldspec hero now

Thruth is, at lower levels everyone's like "omg zerker owns, gallons of damage", but at 50 there's not too many happy ones (that i know)

 

[old.chesnor]

Zerks can spec LA+Hammer rather than LA+Axe. Its better anyway and means you aren't double gimped on armour resistant to slash.

If thanes and warriors outdmg you, you have gimped yourself. Try a respec in 1.52 or re-roll. (Are you a Troll zerker by any chance?)

Please, don't tell me zerkers are gimped, 'cos they're not. Simple as that. You may have a gimped zerker, but zerkers ain't gimped. Zerker is the best light tank in the game even after 1.53.

 

[klavrynd]

the offhand damage is neglectable (usually around 50-80) so and there are no hammers +laxe

i have the normal 50/50/28 spec and use a 99% qua double bladed arcanium axe in mainhand (and yes it is enchanted) , nothing wrong with that i guess. I' m norse, cap str/con/dex and allmost qui and +hits ( i have 1600+ hp) and have all resists 15+ except matter

Thruth is that zerker damage is a myth casters pass on making us the main target when they see us. first hit is shit damage due to bt and then it's hoping you oneslap em or get qc cc'ed and die a quick death.


bluecons fall to pieces easily, infiltrators are cut through like a hot knife in butter, but all others give you a 60/40 chance to die

 

[old.chesnor]

Just like almost every other class

 

[old.Arnor]

but zerkers werent made to rvr alone mac.


And I for one am REALLY happy with my zerker.

Only thing I dont like is Wuren doing more dmg on me than i do on him :\ even with 25% thrust resist he still outdamages me
(mmmm, 1.52, scale vuln to slash...mmmmm)

Oh, and I've hit for more than 1000dmg with my main hand, give me a player who uses a onehander (or 2) who can top that ^^