What would YOU class as grief play?

[Phantomby]

Phantomby: nice and good points in most of your post, but I don't agree with the TOA post. Let me tell you why.

When I started playing DAOC, I followed friends, when all hungarian players tried to recruit. They pretty much told us which guild we should join for all the help.

The first line of my friends got the help they offered, and the guild was even more helpful.
The next batch of people got far less help when they started the game.
I started a bit later, when most hungarian stores had no copies of daoc (got my copy from germany) and when I asked for advice I often got flamed and told they explained it to newbies already and why I don't notice they are RvRing, trying to farm oily rag, etc.

The problem: I haven't played for months, but only for a few weeks. Soon I seen similar problems elsewhere, and people who wanted the "top spot" and didn't care to help anyone.

These people were greedy and abusive way before TOA, but you simply didn't need oily rag or other expensive items at that time that much, you had your SC, and didn't notice, didn't care.

TOA just made you make new SC, and compete for the same items, and notice these greedy and arrogant asses.

Of course people who came from CS, UT, and other highly competitive games without community ascept seen this example as something to follow. Most of them who ended up following suit would have end up this way anyway, but it accelerated this trend a bit.

But TOA isn't the start and isn't the source of this problem.

Heh, thanks for the comments, i understand that greedy and abusive people were probably always around but TOA was a catalyst that shifted perceptions. The haves (artis and top template) and the have-nots (the casuals that couldnt camp a spawn for 14hours etc).

<On a side note the more you play, the greater the chance of having in game contacts to get things done. Another aspect of being a casual gamer was that they didnt have these extended networks of players with farming toons which they could call on at the drop of a hat to get required items>

It really was about this time that many of what i consider to be "casual gamers" found they could not compete against the hardcore players with their timers and new abilities and they got wiped. Many gave up and left, some carried on with grim determination.

But the upshot was that before TOA you could join a group and get credit for a quest item and nobody minded, in TOA with arti looting and stealing it was only select people who would be allowed to join the encounter (people the group trusted no doubt). The spirit of helping each other was dwindling slowly but surely.

Anyway i think we are drifting slightly off topic. I simply wanted to say that i believe that TOA was a major factor to creating selfish attitudes which pervaded the RVR scene and caused more upset (along with differing play style clashes)

 

[Xmi]

To be honest, I think the various game forums, including FH and the VN boards should also hold their hands up, as they play an important role with some of the more prominent grieving issues we have seen, whether it starts in the forums and moves to the game, or visa versa.

If they were not so tolerant with some of the more negative posts/threads I don't think we would see half the problems we see today, as most incidents would have been reduced to a flash in the pan. (I can already hear the free-speech peeps flexing their digits.)

I appreciate it's a double edged sword as I think it is also part of the lure of these type of forums, i.e. to see people try and verbally attack each other.

Btw for those that have never seen a positive posting forum before, it is a breath of fresh air! People can still be critical but they do it in a non-personal way, and people don't flame them for having an opinion that is different to theirs or for posting too short/long, etc.

I think lpep hit the nail on the head when he talked about tolerance, it's time we were ALL more tolerant with each other and each others play styles so we don't carry this negative attitude across to WAR and ruin that game before it's even hit the streets.

If you don't like something in-game report it in-game and let the game-owners worry about whether it's grieving/ allowed, or not.

to all of ya

 

[Conway]

Phantomby, a lot of what you say is familiar. Our problems were mostly in rvr, rather than TOA, because of circumstances. We were a small guild, but for us getting things done in TOA wasn't really a problem. We had a big advantage because our guild included someone who could and did run ml raids if one of our people was stuck for credit. It included someone who could and did multiply log animists and druids to help if one of our people needed an artifact. And the rest would do their best to turn out to help when needed. Often there was a learning process in finding out how to do things. So, for example, when the bard needed a harp for rvr, we all rolled up and died a few times.

As for the rvr side, we could debate the past endlessly. Everyone has their own view of the past, based on their personal experience. I gave mine. I've never posted a screenshot to make another player look bad, I'm certainly not starting six months after I've left a game. Anyway, I'm not interested in detailed analysis of what happened then, I'm interested in the future, especially the future of WAR.

The english server cluster appears to have suffered problems much worse than the other clusters. It appears to me things went badly downhill over the last eighteen months. Its now at the point where GOA may well do some drastic things to try and sort it out, because neither they nor the players have much to lose. Anything they do is likely to be unpopular with some players. They may do the wrong thing. They may do the right thing, that could have worked a year ago, and it not work now because its too late.

Whether the english servers live or die in DAOC, carrying their problems on into WAR would be a bad idea for everyone. Its hard to let grudges drop, but it would be nice if people try. It would be nice if people realised keeping the player population is the pure financial reality behind the fantasy world. Whether they go or stay makes the difference between multiple english servers and having to play the game in a foreign language or even have the plug pulled. Someone may play a different way and sometimes annoy you, but they are a little walking moneybag that is helping pay for the future of your virtual world. It may be to the benefit of the community to get rid of the odd really bad one, but not too many.

 

[Esselinithia]

Phantomby: Before SI, we had no access to Apoc necklace, but with TOA we thought it should be easy to get, like epic armor, etc. and it led to a lot of demand. And limited supply and huge demand can always make the greedy people very visible.

This is why I would have prefered a FAR harder TOA where it is comparable to pre TOA SIDI in difficulty. (with focus shield, etc, nerf in place)

I think some realy hard TOA would be still good fun for casuals for many many years. And if you would have trouble fighting high RRs, it would be a good change and a good way to get some small bonus, etc.

 

[censi]

dispite all the whos right and whos wrong... and he did this and hes a lamer for doing that etc...

There is a DEFINITE correlation with the quality of the player against his tendency to add...

Regardless of the excuse:

"its RVR mate"
"I got added on once so I add on all"
"it doesnt say in the rule book you shouldnt add"
"you dont pay my subs so dont tell me I cant play like a lemon if I want to etc"
"if its red its dead etc"

A lot of players start off adders and then over time stop doing it... when they realise how annoying it is...

I actually think to be honest though its a testimony to the fact that a lot of people are sound that peeps now tend to not add because its generally considered lame (it seems almost 50-50)... Its is one of the reason daoc is dying tbh though... but its more the fault of the game designers, that the player base has adopted its own rule base (and following this rule base is detrimental to the players progression)... So if the designers dont cotten onto this fact that peeps value the concept of fair fights they should be promoting this... not sticking to their stupid anti add free stance...

build the game around the things that the game excells at (nice competative fights) look to remove from the game things which harm the game or turn people away from it (dying meaninglessly to random adders 20 times in a row)

Instead of do this though we just get a new patch with a FOTM class and some new PVE grind (the essence of pretty much all mythics expansions)...

Now daoc is near the end of its shelf life mythic need to adopt and anti add ethos, not in the name of making daoc a game for the leetists... but in the name of making RVR encounters meaningfull and competative and greifer free.

 

[Dard]

actually no, i was offering a supposition as to why it spilt out into RVR, with TOA came a very noticable shift in play attitudes.

The incident i remember clearly was in agramon. Now there are only so many routes through agr and playing the bard i was driving. When our 4 man grp out for a bit of a laugh ran past the "8 man hib grp" 3-4 times within 10 mins we got called everything under the sun for "following and leeching".

The fact was we approached a mid grp on a hill top, mezzed rear ranks and as we got closer saw they were engaged so we pulled away immediately. This happened a couple of times and we caught enough grief to not bother going there again for a few months.
The l33t had their playground and woe betide anyone who didnt have the right pass.

Same happened in the stealth arena, ran a grp of 2-3 (as well as soloing i might add) and the l33tness reared its ugly head again. How dare you play with a couple of friends and kill other stealthers in RVR. Never mind the fact that mostly we ran into 2+ opposition.

So bollox to that, im very sad for those players that are left to understand that different play styles exist and you cant enforce your style on everyone else for your OWN enjoyment.

Anyway, had enough of dyvet. It was that attitude that made us leave. US and red = dead means everyone knows where they stand.


All 50 and dead to me...
Phantomby NS
Blinx Ranger
Grommit Bard
Therra Hero
TherraVoid Eld
Maoix SM

So you ran a 4 man in Agrammon, the one area where for once, most of playerbase agreed the 8v8 kiddies could go play amongst themselves, where you added <albeit accidently> several times & got bitched at ?

Wonder why that was

 

[Esselinithia]

I think if soloers would leave PVE people alone when they do assassin missions, the same PVE people wouldn't add and zerg to get the much needed RPs.

I think the best way would be simple: Make TOA hard mode again, since RvR people can get their TOA stuff from BPs, and give RPs for the hard mode raids.

This way PVE people wouldn't be forced to add, but would happily kill dragons, epic mobs (apoc, etc), and TOA mobs for their RAs.

otherwise: respect only works if it is mutual. If some soloer helps the poor PVEer (excorts when the PVE people doing assassin quest, and fights the stealthers, other soloers in the area) then the PVE people won't add on fight (and might give you free buffs when you need that) and will probably help you in PVE.

If you never help (that would be add) never respect the PVE people, and they have to move in groups and pick up easier targets and have to add most of the time for it, you will get the adds.

It is this simple.

 

[Cromcruaich]

it's time we were ALL more tolerant with each other and each others play styles so we don't carry this negative attitude across to WAR and ruin that game before it's even hit the streets.

I agree however I hope that you understand that 2 soloers minding there own business just wanting to go toe to toe - requires absolutely no one to change their play style or exercise any 'tolerance'. They just need to be ignored - pretend they dont exist. They are playing and enjoying an aspect of the game, that impinges on no one else - as soon as someone runs in and interupts that fight, there choice has been removed - they are completely unable to engage in a way of playing they want to. Can you be surprised if they initially politely outline why they would prefer to finish their fight? How often do these requests get met with abuse?

Take it the other way, those two soloers go off and add on a zerg or the group that added, and that is not impinging on the play style of those people they have engaged with - its a one way flow - one party by adding on the soloers is completely forcing a play style on those 2 people - and they cant do a thing about it, and now even the GoA machine appears to be coming out against them. Frankly its a ridiculous state of affairs, and one that is obviously recognised as a problem as instanced fighting areas look like they will make WAR.

 

[Esselinithia]

Cromcruaich: You should ask often: Why these people added to the fight?

 

[Cromcruaich]

I think if soloers would leave PVE people alone when they do assassin missions, the same PVE people wouldn't add and zerg to get the much needed RPs.

Is this really an issue? Or are you being sarcastic?

 

[Xmi]

Censi: I think you'll find the correlation is actually between solo players and their realm rank, i.e. the higher the realm rank the more likely they are to solo and also want the fight to remain solo. After all why would you want someone else to add if you can earn all of the RP's.

Unless you like a challenge, or are truly masochistic or perhaps out to prove a point, very few players will go their entire game career without adding, even if it is just to rise to a reasonable level after which your character will have more survivability and you will therefore be more inclined to take on solo fights.

So you ran a 4 man in Agrammon, the one area where for once, most of playerbase agreed the 8v8 kiddies could go play amongst themselves, where you added <albeit accidently> several times & got bitched at? Wonder why that was

Why do you claim to represent most players? There are no 1v1, 2v2...nvn areas, so why do you claim there is? There may be areas where you are more likely to find these types of groups, but it is not at the exclusion of others, what ever their play style. If a solo player wants to take a pop at a zerg, or a zerg wants to take out a solo player, who are we to argue. If someone moans to the contrary, ignore them and carry on. If they persist in moaning, chuck them on your ignore list or if you feel the need report them for harassment.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Cromcruaich: You should ask often: Why these people added to the fight?

Why do you think? In anycase, my point stands - just leave em to it, and more often and not they will actually thank you.

Ive had much more thanks for not adding, and cheers mate sends than ive ever had 'dont add'.

Ive also had many salutes and hugs from enemy realm peeps in the same situation.

Next in my order list is 'why did you add' sends, to which i generally just reply - soz m8, didnt realise it was you against <x>.. And every time if had a send back saying np m8, good luck.

Finally ive had a single bad experience in 5 years, for which I put my hands up and say I reported them and they got a 5 day ban. They apologised after the event (via a forum) and i'm sure they didnt do it again.

Ive never had the hib who has lost a battle send me asking why I didnt help, but believe that soloers have had abuse in this situation as well -I guess its as minor in reality as the claims from the 8v8/1v1 peeps.


I hope you can accept that it is the soloers who feel completely impotent and frustrated when they are unable to pursue a way of playing that doesnt impinge in any serious way on others.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Censi: I think you'll find the correlation is actually between solo players and their realm rank, i.e. the higher the realm rank the more likely they are to solo and also want the fight to remain solo. After all why would you want someone else to add if you can earn all of the RP's.

Unless you like a challenge, or are truly masochistic or perhaps out to prove a point, very few players will go their entire game career without adding, even if it is just to rise to a reasonable level after which your character will have more survivability and you will therefore be more inclined to take on solo fights.



Why do you claim to represent most players? There are no 1v1, 2v2...nvn areas, so why do you claim there is? There may be areas where you are more likely to find these types of groups, but it is not at the exclusion of others, what ever their play style. If a solo player wants to take a pop at a zerg, or a zerg wants to take out a solo player, who are we to argue. If someone moans to the contrary, ignore them and carry on. If they persist in moaning, chuck them on your ignore list or if you feel the need report them for harassment.

Gah, your missing the point again. The 8v8 community wanted uninterupted fights, they used agramon because it was out of the way and avoided conflict with othe players as a postive action for the server. It's a good thing to do - they just get on with playing how they want to, and dont affect anyone else, or expose themselves to potential situations that lead to arguments and unfriendliness.

Can you accept that people want to fight ostensibly fair fights? And then accept with your live and let live liberal attitude that they should be aloud to engage in that style of play? And once youve accepted that, doesnt it make sense not to impinge on that?

I cant really believe how any reasonable person could think otherwise - and I think you are a reasonable person, and if you thought about it, you would agree to.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Anyhow, I think nowadays by far the majority of players do respect solo fights at least. The main arguments recently have been about the dueling circles, which is slightly different as it adds in the aspect of pseudo prearranged fights.

Really, in all conscience, when you see two respected old timers going toe to toe, hacking it out over minutes and minutes, what kind of antisocial idiot would want to do anything other than watch the outcome of the fight, and see if they can learn anything from them going at it, hammer and tongs?

 

[Xmi]

I agree however I hope that you understand that 2 soloers minding there own business just wanting to go toe to toe - requires absolutely no one to change their play style or exercise any 'tolerance'. They just need to be ignored - pretend they dont exist. They are playing and enjoying an aspect of the game, that impinges on no one else - as soon as someone runs in and interupts that fight, there choice has been removed - they are completely unable to engage in a way of playing they want to. Can you be surprised if they initially politely outline why they would prefer to finish their fight? How often do these requests get met with abuse?

I beg to differ, while I have no problem with people *trying* to solo, toe to toe, as you call it, I don't agree that they should expect others to ignore them. They are fair game like anyone else in the frontiers. If people stand back, great for them, as they will get more RP's if they win. If people leech, oh well, there is always the next fight. We have all been there, and probably on both sides, adder and soloer.

Add to that the problem of knowing whether someone wants to be assisted or not and you can hopefully see it is not black and white; coincidently, I took down an Alb fighting a Mid the other day and the Mid warmly thanked me. Go figure.

Note: Sometimes I add, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I like people adding on my fights, sometimes I don't. I am probably Mr average in that approach.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I beg to differ, while I have no problem with people *trying* to solo, toe to toe, as you call it, I don't agree that they should expect others to ignore them. They are fair game like anyone else in the frontiers. If people stand back, great for them, as they will get more RP's if they win. If people leech, oh well, there is always the next fight. We have all been there, and probably on both sides, adder and soloer.

Add to that the problem of knowing whether someone wants to be assisted or not and you can hopefully see it is not black and white; coincidently, I took down an Alb fighting a Mid the other day and the Mid warmly thanked me. Go figure.

Note: Sometimes I add, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I like people adding on my fights, sometimes I don't. I am probably Mr average in that approach.

Mm, im a bit unclear where you stand - it looks like you accept that some soloers should be left alone to play as they want to. To me that sounds like we are in agreement. You at least have a bit of wiggle room there, and there is a gap to respect some players who wish to solo and give you a bit of respect back for being considerate with regards to when they are in a solo scrap. Nice one.

 

[Esselinithia]

Again: A full rejuv cleric who is out to get some healing RAs by missions feel just as bad when soloers jump on him / her. Next time the said cleric will see the same people will have good reasons to add. Why? Because it is the best chance for RP, and the live and let live approach doesn't work with these people.

Meet 4-5 such people when I was on dyvet. And they knew fully that they are ruining the game for others.

But I actualy know people who helped the PVE people out there. Interesting enough sometimes my buffbot ended up in CS buffing these soloers when they want buffs. And no adds on their fights. (not even small heal when they won the fight already)

Or rezzing counts as adding?

 

[Thorwyn]

I think a lot of the misunderstandings and problems are arising from the fact that both sides tend to generalize a lot. If two soloers are fighting right on the middle of a bridge in iRvR and a zerg passes by, someone WILL cast a spell, which then leads to the soloers being pissed off, creating lots of flames and "oh those adding n00bs" etc, although it might just have been one single person. Same with AC raids... there is just a few people who keep doing them, yet the other realms are blaming the entire realm for it. Not exactly easy to find a solution here.
Also, one important point is, that if you prefer not to add, you´re occasionally meet people who´re not willing to return the favour. I´ve been added on a 1v1 fight by one "respected" member of the solo community because I was "playing an OP caster". I never added on a 1v1 before, but after this, I really found it hard to find a reason why I shouldn´t.

 

[Dard]

Censi: I think you'll find the correlation is actually between solo players and their realm rank, i.e. the higher the realm rank the more likely they are to solo and also want the fight to remain solo. After all why would you want someone else to add if you can earn all of the RP's.

Unless you like a challenge, or are truly masochistic or perhaps out to prove a point, very few players will go their entire game career without adding, even if it is just to rise to a reasonable level after which your character will have more survivability and you will therefore be more inclined to take on solo fights.



Why do you claim to represent most players? There are no 1v1, 2v2...nvn areas, so why do you claim there is? There may be areas where you are more likely to find these types of groups, but it is not at the exclusion of others, what ever their play style. If a solo player wants to take a pop at a zerg, or a zerg wants to take out a solo player, who are we to argue. If someone moans to the contrary, ignore them and carry on. If they persist in moaning, chuck them on your ignore list or if you feel the need report them for harassment.

Well it looks like we play different games then, because in my experience, any area where theres insta port for 2 or 3 realms = iRvR area, Agramon = 8v8 area & anywhere theres not iRvR & isnt called Brynja Bridge = a possible solo area.

Now (again imo) if you wanna be a twat in any of those area's you deserved to be called names (after all a spade is a spade isnt it ?), ive said it before & ill say it again, there's room in the game for all sorts of play styles, all you need to do is show a little respect, but i guess thats too hard for some people.

 

[Xmi]

Gah, your missing the point again. The 8v8 community wanted uninterupted fights, they used agramon because it was out of the way and avoided conflict with othe players as a postive action for the server. It's a good thing to do - they just get on with playing how they want to, and dont affect anyone else, or expose themselves to potential situations that lead to arguments and unfriendliness.

Can you accept that people want to fight ostensibly fair fights? And then accept with your live and let live liberal attitude that they should be aloud to engage in that style of play? And once youve accepted that, doesnt it make sense not to impinge on that?

I cant really believe how any reasonable person could think otherwise - and I think you are a reasonable person, and if you thought about it, you would agree to.

I do get your point; You are still making the case for a specific way of playing in a specific area, and RvR isn't like that. If someone chooses to buck the trend, and it works great, however they have to accept it is a local rule that is not enforceable on others, especially through intimidation. If Mythic choose to implement a nice little 8v8 area, and a nice little 4v4 area, and so on, then that's a different matter, but they haven't.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Again: A full rejuv cleric who is out to get some healing RAs by missions feel just as bad when soloers jump on him / her. Next time the said cleric will see the same people will have good reasons to add. Why? Because it is the best chance for RP, and the live and let live approach doesn't work with these people.

Meet 4-5 such people when I was on dyvet. And they knew fully that they are ruining the game for others.

But I actualy know people who helped the PVE people out there. Interesting enough sometimes my buffbot ended up in CS buffing these soloers when they want buffs. And no adds on their fights. (not even small heal when they won the fight already)

Or rezzing counts as adding?

Well thats great, i'm not saying everything is black and white, just that people have enough sympathy and understanding to cut each other a bit of slack. Obviously there are some people who will just kill you onsight - however the example above of people leaving you along is simply an extension of the attitude that people who respect others fights have - its one and the same spirit. A spirit that the red is dead people dont possess. I think we're really in agreement, honestly I do. Sounds like you have the tolerance to let people finish solo fights (as does Xml) but sometimes you dont as a reaction to who is fighting - well thats exactly the same as everyone else who is grouped under this 1v1/8v8 label i'm using.

 

[Dard]

I do get your point; You are still making the case for a specific way of playing in a specific area, and RvR isn't like that. If someone chooses to buck the trend, and it works great, however they have to accept it is a local rule that is not enforceable on others, especially through intimidation. If Mythic choose to implement a nice little 8v8 area, and a nice little 4v4 area, and so on, then that's a different matter, but they haven't.

So what if Mythic hasnt ? Mythic provide a game they dont provide the people to play it. Mythic cant make me attack someone or somthing ingame nor can you as i cant make you attack or not attack someone. But we can agree to respect one anothers opinion's.

 

[Esselinithia]

Well it looks like we play different games then, because in my experience, any area where theres insta port for 2 or 3 realms = iRvR area, Agramon = 8v8 area & anywhere theres not iRvR & isnt called Brynja Bridge = a possible solo area.

Now (again imo) if you wanna be a twat in any of those area's you deserved to be called names (after all a spade is a spade isnt it ?), ive said it before & ill say it again, there's room in the game for all sorts of play styles, all you need to do is show a little respect, but i guess thats too hard for some people.

Your areas are wrong, because you designate them for single groups and leave several groups of people out of it.

A keep in enemy hands (out of iRvR) area: Good for soloers and siege people. (and scouting missions?)

Towers away from iRvR (and the route for them): Good for PVE people on assassin missions and soloers (visible and dueling)

RvR dungeons: Good for some PVE raids, and soloers, stealthers. And also a possible route for relic raid crew.

iRvR area: Good for iRvR folks, and for people who are motivated to take the keeps back.

Agramon: 8v8, possible 4v4 maybe, also a possible route for relic raid crew.

Misc keeps after siege: Good for siege people who waiting for the enemy to return and patching up the keep, ok for some missions, and ok for soloers who willing to help with carrying wood, and for soloers who are happy to fight with these people.

If you respect the people who has reasons to stay in the area and leave them alone they will probably leave you alone (since they lose more if everyone returns the favor for breaking the trust). If you break this trust and respect you will get adds all the time.

The problem is: Some dueling and fg people doesn't respect the other people who have valid reasons to be in same area, and when the payback comes they moan and whine.

Your choice: You can have a live and let live relationship with siege crews and PVE people.
Or if you break this, they will add on you and will annoy you, because they have to.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I do get your point; You are still making the case for a specific way of playing in a specific area, and RvR isn't like that. If someone chooses to buck the trend, and it works great, however they have to accept it is a local rule that is not enforceable on others, especially through intimidation. If Mythic choose to implement a nice little 8v8 area, and a nice little 4v4 area, and so on, then that's a different matter, but they haven't.

Ofc they accept it as unenforceable by the coc or whatever. And it is a local rule - which happened to work very well for everyone. Also ofcourse, at the time the fg stuff was in full swing in agramon, any group outfit adding on fights would quickly get obliterated by any groups running around. So yes, ofc you could go there at its height, and decide to add, however, aside from mythic/goa CoC rules, there are unwritten community guidelines, and one that was kind of created and respected by the majority of the community was that agramon was an area predominantly for 8v8.

I can see how people baulk at the idea that some faceless people are trying to say 'you cannot go to agramon', but try not to baulk at it - dont see it as them enforcing a playstyle on you (it isnt) it was them trying to avoid you (not you specifically!) forcing your playstyle on them. It provided people with more game play choices in the game and as such encouraged more people to the server (or more accurately stopped them leaving as quickly), and gave people other avenues to explore.

 

[Xmi]

ive said it before & ill say it again, there's room in the game for all sorts of play styles, all you need to do is show a little respect, but i guess thats too hard for some people.

I totally agree there's room for all sorts of play style, including people that want to add, which is a play style in its own right. I don't necessarily support it, especially people that do it all the time, I am just realistic. Which takes me back to my earlier point about tolerance...

 

[Cromcruaich]

Your areas are wrong, because you designate them for single groups and leave several groups of people out of it.

A keep in enemy hands (out of iRvR) area: Good for soloers and siege people. (and scouting missions?)

Towers away from iRvR (and the route for them): Good for PVE people on assassin missions and soloers (visible and dueling)

RvR dungeons: Good for some PVE raids, and soloers, stealthers. And also a possible route for relic raid crew.

iRvR area: Good for iRvR folks, and for people who are motivated to take the keeps back.

Agramon: 8v8, possible 4v4 maybe, also a possible route for relic raid crew.

Misc keeps after siege: Good for siege people who waiting for the enemy to return and patching up the keep, ok for some missions, and ok for soloers who willing to help with carrying wood, and for soloers who are happy to fight with these people.

If you respect the people who has reasons to stay in the area and leave them alone they will probably leave you alone (since they lose more if everyone returns the favor for breaking the trust). If you break this trust and respect you will get adds all the time.

The problem is: Some dueling and fg people doesn't respect the other people who have valid reasons to be in same area, and when the payback comes they moan and whine.

Your choice: You can have a live and let live relationship with siege crews and PVE people.
Or if you break this, they will add on you and will annoy you, because they have to.

I'm glad that you do accept that a live and let live attitude is possible within the game - its the case that its an attitude more in keeping with the 8v8/1v1 paradigmn than the red is dead people (who on the whole are a dieing breed).

 

[Cromcruaich]

including people that want to add, which is a play

This really is the crux - people who want to add, can add on other adders, they can add at sieges, they can add at bridges they can add as much as they like, however ultimately this playstyle completely obliterates and makes impossible all other balanced play styles unless they operate with a bit of respect for others who dont want to add on anything that moves. And thats the very core of the problem the fair fight crew have.

 

[Dard]

Your areas are wrong, because you designate them for single groups and leave several groups of people out of it.

To be fair my area's are not wrong, not in my experience (& at the risk of sounding like a pompous twat) my experience is probably > your experience where RvR is concerned.

I intentionally generalised into 3 groups of players, <solo, 8v8 & zerg> to avoid typing a thousand word essay to involoving number's of players from 1 to infinitum.

 

[Esselinithia]

And it is a local rule - which happened to work very well for everyone.

If it would work well for everyone, most would respect these rules. But sadly these rules left out quite big chunks of playerbase out of the picture and this is the problem. As soon as your "rules" get adapted to support the other groups it will be better.

But if I remember well, Mythic promised some instanced RvR before.

1v1,2v2,4v4,8v8 RvR instances with their RP rewards based on what is fair for some organized fights would be good way to handle this. It could be something similar to the Arena system in WoW.

 

[Cromcruaich]

If it would work well for everyone, most would respect these rules. But sadly these rules left out quite big chunks of playerbase out of the picture and this is the problem. As soon as your "rules" get adapted to support the other groups it will be better.

But if I remember well, Mythic promised some instanced RvR before.

1v1,2v2,4v4,8v8 RvR instances with their RP rewards based on what is fair for some organized fights would be good way to handle this. It could be something similar to the Arena system in WoW.

Most did respect them - there were very few problems in Agramon. They arnt my rules - stop using that devicive phraseology. The community generally recognised that agramon was a fg area - it was actually a great example of the way community guidelines can work, because it did, for well over a year. . It was something that was generally recognised by everyone, that on the whole benefitted the server by not throwing together people on opposing sides of the fair fight argument.