What would YOU class as grief play?

[Esselinithia]

The official line is rightnow.

But I think even with any amount of communication GOA couldn't and shouldn't be trusted.

 

[Flimgoblin]

grief play is when you play with the sole intention of ruining others enjoyment of the game.


Thats 90% of the players left on the server then....

Well given you get offended by anyone else playing in RvR that makes anyone RvRing griefing

Leaving out your megameights and the people who just don't ever RvR you're probably right with 90%.

 

[Ctuchik]

It has to be something that would annoy almost anyone rather than something some people would like and some wouldn't.

HORNER!

 

[Conway]

But a single daoc player without any such information can't represent everyone.

True. Everyone has better knowledge of the feelings of some players than with others.

People post here that many fg players left/moved server because of strong feelings over the TT issue which got very wound up on these forums. Judging from farewell posts on the forum I believe a lot of fg players left before that partly because of low population.

I know more about the casual players. I know that very many casual players left well before the TT incident. In many cases because they ran out of pve content and felt unable to take part in rvr. If you just wanted to log in sometimes and have fun... If you didn't read the forums and know all the player imposed rules... If you didn't want to or weren't able (because of real life demands) to get properly equipped, RR5 desirable class, voice comms, and commit to a regular opted group... Well, then you got killed a lot by opted groups, and generally people didn't mind that. They knew they weren't good at rvr, and they expected to die a lot.

What they did get upset about was being yelled at a lot, sometimes without even knowing what they did was wrong. They got upset by heading out solo and getting killed by a high realm rank enemy stealther, which they didn't mind, but they did mind one of their own realm appearing and cheering the enemy. They could even get yelled at for logging in, seeing a keep in flames, and going to defend it, because 'we have decided to let the albions have it for irvr'. That could annoy someone who was not one of the 'we who decided', and had no idea what was going on. Sometimes people got level 50, did a few runs on the frontier, and left because it wasn't what they had been expecting. They were expecting aggro from enemy realms not their own.

 

[Conway]

HORNER!

Funnily enough, when our lot were on the frontier the rule was not to kill soloers except Horner.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

What they did get upset about was being yelled at a lot, sometimes without even knowing what they did was wrong. They got upset by heading out solo and getting killed by a high realm rank enemy stealther, which they didn't mind, but they did mind one of their own realm appearing and cheering the enemy. They could even get yelled at for logging in, seeing a keep in flames, and going to defend it, because 'we have decided to let the albions have it for irvr'. That could annoy someone who was not one of the 'we who decided', and had no idea what was going on. Sometimes people got level 50, did a few runs on the frontier, and left because it wasn't what they had been expecting. They were expecting aggro from enemy realms not their own.

In that case they should have should simply told the yellers to fuck off or put them on ignore. But I got your point.

 

[Levin]

Conway is spot on. I had many, many friends who complained about just that scenario, and I experienced it too. Somewhere along the line we lost our great realm leaders that would call on us to defend Albion, and in their place we got people who would shout at us for trying to take back our keeps.

It was like the game had become something completely different from what it used to be.

 

[Thadius]

Funnily enough, when our lot were on the frontier the rule was not to kill soloers except Horner.

HORNER WAS SOLO!?!!!!!! :eek2:

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Adding on fights or just ganking people in stupid numbers (hi SH).

Thats my classification

This is greifing IMO, and shows a typical FH attitude towards other players who just play the game the way they want to, whether it be solo or grouped, after all the game is based and designed around 3 waring factions, and by design to show no mercy to enemies.

However the game is now riddled with players who think they know how everyone should play, and enforce it with a barrage of abuse either in game by logging alts or spamming emotes, PMs of abuse or telling people to change their playstyles, or by turning to forums or IRC to name and shame those who do not conform to their ways and beleifs. The consequences outside of the game filter back into the game and peoples reputations are slurred even in their own realm, and all because the sad person at the beginning of the chain got killed while playing a multiplayer game he wants to play on his own without consideration for how others find fun in the game.

The biggest problem is, that people like Vlad and many others like him, dont realise that their small amounts of bullying and sarcasm eventually hurt the way people feel about playing, and eventually this contributes to some leaving feeling harrased and downtrodden, and as we can all see now, only the bullys are left, picking at the carcass of whats left until the servers are devoid of regular players, leaving only like minded people, and then they complain theres nothing left to do but duel each other. Even then they continue to greif each other and so GOA step in and say "stop being nasty to each other" and kill the dueling, then they too get flamed and bullied.

While most have too much pride to admit they feel bullied in game and on here, its the truth, it goes the same way in real life, but on here the bullies the other end of the net connection are small, frail and have no one else to pick on, so cyber is their way of payback.

If you step out into RvR, expect to die, dont expect anything else and you wont be dissapointed. If you die, get over it, move on and try again.

If a Jahova(sp) tried to ram Christianity down your neck, youd tell him to p*ss off, if a daoc player does it, his m8s join the band wagon and try to humiliate you into it. Greifing in this game, its not being left to play how you want to.

/end rant

 

[Cromcruaich]

Ive heard that said again and again - emotes and bullying - its bandied around is appears to be taken on face value - however what are the figures for how often it happens, and to what extent? I'm getting a little tired of it often been used in arguments, ostensibly against people who are known predominantly as 8v8 and solo players without any actual evidence to backup the claim.

Ive never experienced it from either side. Well once in 5 years ive been basically told to piss off and not add, but once only, thankfully my poor little mind was able to cope with the trauma and I had another beer and carried on playing.

 

[Phantomby]

Ive heard that said again and again - emotes and bullying - its bandied around is appears to be taken on face value - however what are the figures for how often it happens, and to what extent? I'm getting a little tired of it often been used in arguments, ostensibly against people who are known predominantly as 8v8 and solo players without any actual evidence to backup the claim.
.

It happened a lot back when i used to play and many many people from my guild felt the same way about these self proclaimed play style fascists.

in the end it didnt feel like a realm it felt like the l33t and the casuals and they should not mix.

Casuals all left and the l33t farm each other.

Well done now turn the fucking lights off on your way out.

 

[Dard]

Ive heard that said again and again - emotes and bullying - its bandied around is appears to be taken on face value - however what are the figures for how often it happens, and to what extent? I'm getting a little tired of it often been used in arguments, ostensibly against people who are known predominantly as 8v8 and solo players without any actual evidence to backup the claim.

Ive never experienced it from either side. Well once in 5 years ive been basically told to piss off and not add, but once only, thankfully my poor little mind was able to cope with the trauma and I had another beer and carried on playing.

Same here, i think i've been swore at once by a realm mate for letting him die (or not adding) in a keep take, i was eating spagetti bolognaise at the time & no way was i putting my fork down to climb up a ladder, & i think i was asked once or maybe twice in OF not to add on FG fights (both times politely).

Surely if this bullying & abuse was so prevelant then /ignore sorts the problem ?

& you can turn emote's off.

& also .. how do you bully someone in a virtual world ?

 

[Conway]

Ive heard that said again and again - emotes and bullying - its bandied around is appears to be taken on face value - however what are the figures for how often it happens, and to what extent?

Sadly, I think it happened a lot more to unknown characters who weren't in important guilds. So, if your new alt was in NFD they might not meet it. Sorry, but usually people bullied the casuals, not someone they knew was GM of an rvr guild.

 

[Cromcruaich]

It happened a lot back when i used to play and many many people from my guild felt the same way about these self proclaimed play style fascists.

in the end it didnt feel like a realm it felt like the l33t and the casuals and they should not mix.

Casuals all left and the l33t farm each other.

Well done now turn the fucking lights off on your way out.

Other way around, l33t left and casuals left to farm each other m8y! Actually l33t left and casuals left is ofc the truly accurate description.

A lot? How often did it happen to you and do you have screenies, and also did you report them? Who was it?

In my older days the people in the rvr guilds were never abusive - they just ignored you completely. But that was gonig back 3 years now. Ee when i were a lad.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Sadly, I think it happened a lot more to unknown characters who weren't in important guilds. So, if your new alt was in NFD they might not meet it. Sorry, but usually people bullied the casuals, not someone they knew was GM of an rvr guild.

Mmm, NFD was never an rvr guild, we were just a guild that rvr'd, and for a long long time NFD was a bit of a pariah fg wise, as some of the older FH peeps may remember, and during that time I still never received any abuse whatsoever.

Granted ive been sent a number of times by people - but you know conversations never got abusive because I wasnt abusive back but responded in a reasonable and level headed way myself. I really really doubt that in any such cases (no matter what frequency) that things are anywhere near as clear cut as people like to make out.

Anyhow, I still havent seen any evidence of this widespread systematic abuse and bullying - it looks like a rumour based on a few events that has taken root in the psyche of some people on FH who perpetually use it and state it as a truism in these debates when ive seen no figures or nothing to support it.

 

[Phantomby]

Other way around, l33t left and casuals left to farm each other m8y! Actually l33t left and casuals left is ofc the truly accurate description.

A lot? How often did it happen to you and do you have screenies, and also did you report them? Who was it?

In my older days the people in the rvr guilds were never abusive - they just ignored you completely. But that was gonig back 3 years now. Ee when i were a lad.

a fair amount. seemed a week wouldnt pass without an incident to a guildie at one point. so it kept up the ill feeling.

screenies...possibly. nope didnt report, cant remember names tho one of the best known hib guilds was guilty of one infraction i can remember off the top of my head.

greed overtook any sense of community, for me it was all downhill when toa arrived, rvr impoliteness was just a knock on effect (and possibly realm timers being removed).

least on US servers y

 

[Dard]

a fair amount. seemed a week wouldnt pass without an incident to a guildie at one point. so it kept up the ill feeling.

screenies...possibly. nope didnt report, cant remember names tho one of the best known hib guilds was guilty of one infraction i can remember off the top of my head.

greed overtook any sense of community, for me it was all downhill when toa arrived, rvr impoliteness was just a knock on effect (and possibly realm timers being removed).

least on US servers y

So mainly your talking about ToA & arti camping / stealing nastiness n stuff as opposed to add / leech / zerg rvr abuse ?

 

[Conway]

Mmm, NFD was never an rvr guild, we were just a guild that rvr'd, and for a long long time NFD was a bit of a pariah fg wise, as some of the older FH peeps may remember, and during that time I still never received any abuse whatsoever.

Granted ive been sent a number of times by people - but you know conversations never got abusive because I wasnt abusive back but responded in a reasonable and level headed way myself. I really really doubt that in any such cases (no matter what frequency) that things are anywhere near as clear cut as people like to make out.

Anyhow, I still havent seen any evidence of this widespread systematic abuse and bullying - it looks like a rumour based on a few events that has taken root in the psyche of some people on FH who perpetually use it and state it as a truism in these debates when ive seen no figures or nothing to support it.

Alright, we imagined it. We left a game we enjoyed because of something that we imagined happened. We quit doing more and more of the game to avoid aggro and intimidation we imagined. Some of it was rude, some of it was like someone in a supermarket queue who keeps banging you in the back with their trolley. Not exactly GBH, but intended to annoy.

But we imagined it. We imagined that a friendly community changed at the end into one that was about trying to force people to play by rules set by a clique of players. You only have to look at the rvr section of this forum to see that no one would ever dream of being rude to another player. There are no rude posts there at all.

I'm afraid not many of the more casual players still bother to post on this forum six months after they have left, so you will only get information from a few of us. I'm only looking at it myself to pass the time while ill, and to assess the future for WAR. In fact, of our guild I think only I and one other ever posted here. A couple of others looked at it but never posted. The other one won't even look here any more because he got so fed up over the stuff we 'imagined'. So, its down to me, and I can't be bothered much.

As for how often. Once a week is about right. I quit six months ago, maybe I still have screenies to show the stuff I imagined. Is it really sane to find it and post it at this point?

 

[Esselinithia]

Conway: Sadly there are many people who think they know why the causal people who left were unhappy. They think they know it so well that they can flame people with other oppinions. And they can flame casual players who left even more.

Saying fg and solo knew know this better.

We seen the bullying and we see the ignorance. I think only a few of us had / still have any "illusions" about these people have enough intelligence to understand: casual people who left know why they left better than a few bullying morons.

I lost most of my illusions and I think GOA has every right to make these bullying people realy realy unhappy. Since scaring away these people might be the only chance to make the game better for the rest of players.

 

[Shike]

Anyhow, I still havent seen any evidence of this widespread systematic abuse and bullying - it looks like a rumour based on a few events that has taken root in the psyche of some people on FH who perpetually use it and state it as a truism in these debates when ive seen no figures or nothing to support it.

thats pretty much it.. At least on hib/pryd. Never has there been any large debates or anything particular like it inside the realm about this subject, I do however know that albs had more problems with this (at least when I've played there for nearly a year totals), alb was for some reason crowded with alot of assholes but.. thats alb, mid was pretty oke too overall i think, not many assholes at all. Alb was always a far more random casual realm though on prydwen. That shows what, that there are more assholes among randoms? I dont think thats an unreasonable theory.

All these sad fucks whining about elite rvrfreaks just lacks clues, totally.. those abusive fkin dimwits you have argued with are either very very rare, or simply not elite rvrfreaks at all, they are just complete wankers or idiots. Get that fact into your sorry little head. Once! One time have I ever encountered a complete idiot in DAoC that actually was connected to a RVRguild, once! Guess where Ive seen the most arguements and proper abuse? In fucking PVE, at PLspots and camped dropspots since TOA came out.. Guess who hangs out usually at those spots?? Well here's a hint, it aint fucking hardcore RVRfreaks.

Fucking idiots.. (not you crom ofc)

 

[Esselinithia]

Fucking idiots..

And more abusive comments, from someone who say it doesn't happen on his side.

 

[Shike]

And more abusive comments, from someone who say it doesn't happen on his side.

how about, prove me wrong instead. Or argue for your idiocy.. Your oneliner said absolutely nothing, I take it you agree with me and realise the logic in the points i make between all the cursing?

 

[Conway]

If someone posts he left because he was upset over the TT incident I believe and accept that. I think the person leaving is the best judge of why he left.

I left, and some others left, because we found things became unpleasant. Believe and accept that. We have chosen not to apply for WAR beta in case all the divisions and grievances move there.

I could post an unpleasant screenie from the frontier. That one was in a way the last straw. It wouldn't be fair to the character involved to do so given it was over six months ago now. I am no expert in who counts as a heavy rvr person. The character was a guildmaster of a guild with a lot of realm points.

Reading Shike's post, perhaps there is an explanation of the widely differing views on whether there was abuse/intimidation of fellow players or not. That explanation is that some people think a message is polite and reasonable, but someone (especially one not used to the style of debate on this forum) getting that message out of the blue from a stranger may feel it is annoying. For example Shike might think a message polite that a casual player might find unfriendly.

 

[Shike]

If someone posts he left because he was upset over the TT incident I believe and accept that. I think the person leaving is the best judge of why he left.

Some left Dyvet over it, and I understand them 100%. Each to their own in this matter as you say.

I left, and some others left, because we found things became unpleasant. Believe and accept that. We have chosen not to apply for WAR beta in case all the divisions and grievances move there.

Muuh? I dont know who you are so.. /shrug, I wont comment that you said since you dont say the mainreason for why you left.

I could post an unpleasant screenie from the frontier. That one was in a way the last straw. It wouldn't be fair to the character involved to do so given it was over six months ago now. I am no expert in who counts as a heavy rvr person. The character was a guildmaster of a guild with a lot of realm points.

The right thing to do if you get some form of abuse from someone is, report the fecker. Nobody has the right to step over anyone else ingame aslong as people stay within the boundaries of the CoC which GOA has given us, nobody. Guild with lots of realmpoints isnt a synonym to a guild that aspire to become a name on the FGscene btw, has nothing with each other to do at all in any way. Doesnt matter how much of a RVRgod someone is, they are still people and ingame they communicate with other people and have to respect ordinary social rules. Got to say though, sometimes I wonder about some people, they whine about alot of people that throw abuse around etc and yet I, who have played since beta and I have nearly 2 years ingame totals have met so incredibly few of them? Im starting to think that perhaps its about poor social skills from some people.. I dont know what other conclusion to draw other than that. If I act like an idiot, people will mirror me and be idiots back, thats just how it is, thats what I think sometimes is a reason for why some people cry alot over others that has been mean to them, note the sometimes..

Reading Shike's post, perhaps there is an explanation of the widely differing views on whether there was abuse/intimidation of fellow players or not. That explanation is that some people think a message is polite and reasonable, but someone (especially one not used to the style of debate on this forum) getting that message out of the blue from a stranger may feel it is annoying. For example Shike might think a message polite that a casual player might find unfriendly.

The key in my post was that not all people fond of RVR, more so than casuals are monsters, nor are they people that act in abusive ways by the norm. On the contrary, the abusive idiots out there are thankfully very low in numbers but I also, 100% seriously claim that the percentage of idiots actually is higher among the randoms and in particular in PvE. I base that solely on my own personal experience though and someone else might perceive it in another way. Ive played.. quite frankly, I've played this game more than most and I've been pretty much everywhere aswell and I think its the very same in most realms on most clusters and also in US aswell. PvE brings out the worst devil in people for some reason and its usually randoms that starts using foul language and namecallings etc.. Same thing on big raids aswell, its always randoms that fuck things up and dont listen and spam etc.. they do the same thing in smaller XPgrps aswell as on MLgroupsteps. Its very seldom I see some known RVRoracle starting to call people idiots and such in /BGs or in RVR either for that matter. There is something to learn here..

Regarding my language etc here on FH and ingame, I've said this 100 times before but I guess I'll have to repeat myself once again. I am not using the same style of language ingame nor am I as pushy and keen to argue and flame and debate ingame either.. I never was. Ask anyone who knows me ingame if I'm anything like I show you here on FH. I am very aware of how diplomacy works both in and out of the game and here I simply choose to skip diplomacy fullstop sometimes, sometimes I'm just as anyone else too though, whenever I feel like it! Thats the beauty with this forum, since thats exactly what it is, its just a forum, no more and no less. If someone is abusive or anything remotely close to it ingame I would react just as anyone else would. Ofc I've put people on /ignore ingame because of how they have acted so I think you are wrong in your theory that I would perceive something different from someone else ingame.

Why I choose to use foul language in my previous post is because, Im so goddamn tired of people assuming people who like RvR alot are asshats and responsible for casuals crying, this just isnt true at all. Its also often totally clueless theorists who think they know it all who yapps the most too.. Often they type down an essae about shit they know nothing about and fine, but I cba to answer much else than: Fucking fucker fuck the fucking off for fucks sake.. Ive seen it all before, 100 times, its nothing new, same old debate and same old arguments and same old bullshit from the same type of people.

 

[Thadius]

Dont start arguing with Essse, he/she never shuts up and makes post after post of the same shite, each time seemingly getting longer and longer.

 

[Shike]

Dont start arguing with Essse, he/she never shuts up and makes post after post of the same shite, each time seemingly getting longer and longer.

tehe, you aint ever seen my essaes I take it? :< They tend to be so damn boring so not even I cba to read em lol

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Ive heard that said again and again - emotes and bullying - its bandied around is appears to be taken on face value - however what are the figures for how often it happens, and to what extent?

If you ask teachers at any school what the figures are for bullying, they will all say "Theres so little we loose count!", which is utter bullshit, it only takes 1 child to take their own life in order for them to realise the problem is a lot worse than they beleived, but then its too little too late.

Anyhow, I still havent seen any evidence of this widespread systematic abuse and bullying - it looks like a rumour based on a few events that has taken root in the psyche of some people on FH who perpetually use it and state it as a truism in these debates when ive seen no figures or nothing to support it.

Again, you really think the victims are going to come here to the least sympathetic place of all and tell people like you who look through rose tinted glasses that this doesnt happen, not likely, wake up and smell the mire! You want evidence, ask GOA to tell you the real reason the dueling ring was broken up, or better still ask the players who reported the problems, sorry, they aint gonna come here to be flame bait especially after reading your heartless drivel. Your post shows you share a common trait with the bullies, with your "its all in your mind" crap. Bullying both in schools, RL and now in the cyber world exists, some people take offence easier than others to things said / done, in many situations, you are blind if you cant see it.

You want a statistic, 10% of all statistics are made up, 90% we just couldnt be bothered with. Hows that?

I will also add, that over the TT thing, this could also be seen as a form of bullying, this time by GOA too. But thats another discussion.

 

[Phantomby]

So mainly your talking about ToA & arti camping / stealing nastiness n stuff as opposed to add / leech / zerg rvr abuse ?

actually no, i was offering a supposition as to why it spilt out into RVR, with TOA came a very noticable shift in play attitudes.

The incident i remember clearly was in agramon. Now there are only so many routes through agr and playing the bard i was driving. When our 4 man grp out for a bit of a laugh ran past the "8 man hib grp" 3-4 times within 10 mins we got called everything under the sun for "following and leeching".

The fact was we approached a mid grp on a hill top, mezzed rear ranks and as we got closer saw they were engaged so we pulled away immediately. This happened a couple of times and we caught enough grief to not bother going there again for a few months.
The l33t had their playground and woe betide anyone who didnt have the right pass.

Same happened in the stealth arena, ran a grp of 2-3 (as well as soloing i might add) and the l33tness reared its ugly head again. How dare you play with a couple of friends and kill other stealthers in RVR. Never mind the fact that mostly we ran into 2+ opposition.

So bollox to that, im very sad for those players that are left to understand that different play styles exist and you cant enforce your style on everyone else for your OWN enjoyment.

Anyway, had enough of dyvet. It was that attitude that made us leave. US and red = dead means everyone knows where they stand.


All 50 and dead to me...
Phantomby NS
Blinx Ranger
Grommit Bard
Therra Hero
TherraVoid Eld
Maoix SM

 

[Esselinithia]

how about, prove me wrong instead. Or argue for your idiocy.. Your oneliner said absolutely nothing, I take it you agree with me and realise the logic in the points i make between all the cursing?

No
I say, if you base your argument on the fact that you claim you are never rude.

But you are rude in that post.

That says: you lied and made a flawed argument in the same time. No need to discuss it in detail.

 

[Esselinithia]

actually no, i was offering a supposition as to why it spilt out into RVR, with TOA came a very noticable shift in play attitudes.
...
Anyway, had enough of dyvet. It was that attitude that made us leave. US and red = dead means everyone knows where they stand.

Phantomby: nice and good points in most of your post, but I don't agree with the TOA post. Let me tell you why.

When I started playing DAOC, I followed friends, when all hungarian players tried to recruit. They pretty much told us which guild we should join for all the help.

The first line of my friends got the help they offered, and the guild was even more helpful.
The next batch of people got far less help when they started the game.
I started a bit later, when most hungarian stores had no copies of daoc (got my copy from germany) and when I asked for advice I often got flamed and told they explained it to newbies already and why I don't notice they are RvRing, trying to farm oily rag, etc.

The problem: I haven't played for months, but only for a few weeks. Soon I seen similar problems elsewhere, and people who wanted the "top spot" and didn't care to help anyone.

These people were greedy and abusive way before TOA, but you simply didn't need oily rag or other expensive items at that time that much, you had your SC, and didn't notice, didn't care.

TOA just made you make new SC, and compete for the same items, and notice these greedy and arrogant asses.

Of course people who came from CS, UT, and other highly competitive games without community ascept seen this example as something to follow. Most of them who ended up following suit would have end up this way anyway, but it accelerated this trend a bit.

But TOA isn't the start and isn't the source of this problem.