What would YOU class as grief play?

[old.Whoodoo]

Question. Is this problem as common on the US servers? Or is it isolated to the English GOA realms? If so, that might explain why they don't understand the problem and haven't done anything about it.

So far the only people on my cluster to pm abuse towards me or my guild, oddly enough, have been ex-eu players, and yes the yanks notice it too. But they dont take the hard line about the solo/zerg/adding thing that people do on here, most adding posts end with "well I did step into RvR, guess I was taking my chances", something people here dont seem to accept.

Personally I have had the odd person relog to mid and PM me for adding etc, and generally they are quite nice about it, and usually it ends up being a sorta freindly challenge to avoid each other afterwards

 

[Esselinithia]

Good post Wyst.
Question. Is this problem as common on the US servers? Or is it isolated to the English GOA realms? If so, that might explain why they don't understand the problem and haven't done anything about it.

While the problems we speak about were the most visible on dyvet even before, I think now the difference is even bigger.

Since dyvet has almost constant iRvR and majority of people staying there, and the cluster is underpopulated you can see one thing:

The frontier is almost empty, that makes finding enemies while roaming hard. So many would look for a small place to fight. And most of these places are at keeps. And since not all keeps see such activity, many people gather at same area with different playstyle.

Instanced RvR would solve most problems.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Instanced RvR would solve most problems.

Personally I disagree, instanced RvR will leave the casual players lonely, while the l33t and high RR will have constant groups. Instancing only works with players with even abilities, for example in Guild Wars, even here where everyone starts the same level with similar items, a decent guild group (mostly Koreans) will wipe the floor with all others. Now imagine in DAoC, an FG of RR10s, get pitted against an FG of PUGs, instead of adding whines, you end up with l33t whines.

One thing that has occured to me lately and indeed in reading this thread, people these days seem more intent on making freinds with enemy players and getting an honour status with them, than they do trying to become heroes and saviours in their own realm. Odd.

 

[Gahn]

Personally I disagree, instanced RvR will leave the casual players lonely, while the l33t and high RR will have constant groups. Instancing only works with players with even abilities, for example in Guild Wars, even here where everyone starts the same level with similar items, a decent guild group (mostly Koreans) will wipe the floor with all others. Now imagine in DAoC, an FG of RR10s, get pitted against an FG of PUGs, instead of adding whines, you end up with l33t whines.

One thing that has occured to me lately and indeed in reading this thread, people these days seem more intent on making freinds with enemy players and getting an honour status with them, than they do trying to become heroes and saviours in their own realm. Odd.

Uhm instancing with similar rrs (let's say rr1-4 arena, rr5-9, rr10-13) would even out things and ofc there would be always the Wide Open RvR Zones.

 

[prodical]

i posted in this thread about 2 days ago and i got edited out of it. if the mods dont wanna have an open and honest discussion about the game itself then they shouldnt be on the forums. go do some work and stop policing forums.

 

[Thorwyn]

Differences:

1st: The amount of RPs you can earn in any given time so RP/Hour and RP for effort ratio. In the case of missions it is as designed.
2nd: The Missions are designed as an in game way to give PVE people a chance to get RP without fighting enemies. (same as getting TOA credits in RvR) You can't say the same for dueling rings.
3rd: PVE people try to work harder in PVE, since that is their challenge, they won't be proud of Realm Ranks, etc. and the RAs will support other people. For Solo people the advantage will be used where you compete with others, and will reduce the fair chances of others

3 quite significant differences, there are many smaller ones

I don´t want to discuss this in detail now (since it seems to be futile), but let me just say that I think that all your points are either completely invalid or wrong. In fact, there IS no difference between the described scenarios, no matter how you twist and turn it. Both are trying to eliminate one disturbing factor in order to achieve something.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Uhm instancing with similar rrs (let's say rr1-4 arena, rr5-9, rr10-13) would even out things and ofc there would be always the Wide Open RvR Zones.

I see where you are coming from, but emptying the already barren RvR zones in favour of instancing is not going to improve RvR is it? The FGs go off and instance, the soloers all go instances leaving...well nothing, besides spoiling the whole point of the DAoC RvR system.

 

[Gahn]

I see where you are coming from, but emptying the already barren RvR zones in favour of instancing is not going to improve RvR is it? The FGs go off and instance, the soloers all go instances leaving...well nothing, besides spoiling the whole point of the DAoC RvR system.

But Soloers and Fgs Crew are getting driven away anyway. So it's not that u looking in emptying an RvR zone, it's rather hinting at letting the PvE or not so RvR hardcore ppl to head out in RvR zones and have their fine without the fear of min maxed groups wiping the floor with their asses.
It's merely a way to give people another chance wheter it stays on one side or the other of the fence imo.

 

[Thorwyn]

The problem with instances is, that they can easily be abused for RP powerlevelling. If there are no rp restrictions or other systems of avoiding this exploit, people will use them to safely rocket their ways up the RA ladder.
Whether that´s neccessarily a bad thing or not is another topic.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Wyst - repped for many many good points sounds as always even if my eyes bled when I first saw it.

ive booked monday off so i can read through it ...

 

[Cromcruaich]

...

Yup, not having buffs is a problem. Are you not able to just try and get pally with a few people with buff bots. I never minded giving people buffs if I had conc left.

In your initial reply, you were still pushing quite a narrow view of rvr. And essentially the problems are their because of the smaller population. But, you still should be able to run with the zerg, go and do some siege that albs are so fond of, or try a bit of solo yourself - a rr3 theurg has a reasonable chance at killing stuff, and you can do it quickly if you get the drop. But yes, unbuffed, I do sympathise.

The thing is, just because you cant get the action you want to (though im sure you could) why then turn your dissappointment and ruin a solo scrap? Doesnt make sense to me - at the very least, like ive said, just back off and let them finish, then hunt the winner - people wont exactly thank you for it, but its much better than just adding. Also, most scraps arnt solo toe to toe one on ones, just pile in on them.

Overall though, other soloers I dont think are the big frustration for the fair numbered brigade, its when you get other full groups rolling everything in sight that they get frustrated, or when some E&E abuses their position to get petty minded revenge on people, even if they were still acting ostensibly within the CoC and their role description.

Perhaps you can get a friend who would give you account details for buff bot?

Oh, and what shark said as well.

 

[Cromcruaich]

And hereyou are thrusting your opinion again, and this is exactly my point, if you dont like what others think of the game, this is the result, abuse. Its no vendetta to have my say in how the game is intended, its my point of view, some debate it is reading the inane drivel you post everywhere in every thread you can find to post your beleifs, then shoot people like me and Ess down in flames. Even when its pointed out to you, you do it more!

If this debate had happened 3-4 years ago the result would have been the opposite, and the majority would have said red n dead, the fun was in killing enemies, not just gaining RPs, that was a bonus. With the dwindling population many have looked at things differently, but the basic premise of the game remains that an enemy is an enemy.

Ive said what griefing is to me, not allowing people to have their ways to play and be left in peace, and having their own opinions without insults or abuse from players who think they know better. You it seems fit my bill of a greifer down to a T.

If I shoot you and Ess down in flames its because you are flammable. You failed to read my drivel and respond to it in any meaningfull way, other than just regurgitating the same drivel you always do on this subject - you made no attempt whatsoever to engage directly with any of the points made, and thats why I thrust my opinion on you.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Overall though, other soloers I dont think are the big frustration for the fair numbered brigade, its when you get other full groups rolling everything in sight that they get frustrated, or when some E&E abuses their position to get petty minded revenge on people, even if they were still acting ostensibly within the CoC and their role description.

I dont know the full ins and outs of this, but I will say that the problem was made worse not by the FG that steamrollered through the dueling ring, but by the abuse from fellow realm m8s and even some enemies who logged alts to PM abuse to them, which was from what I know quite extensive. The E&E didnt really report the dueling until the abuse began. So who is in the wrong here, an FG for killing enemies in the frontiers, or the abusive players who then ruined it for everyone else? Perhaps if the abuse hadnt taken place, it might have been left alone?

Both sides of the coin here, just my tuppence worth, i might not have the full facts tho.

 

[Cromcruaich]

So far the only people on my cluster to pm abuse towards me or my guild, oddly enough, have been ex-eu players, and yes the yanks notice it too. But they dont take the hard line about the solo/zerg/adding thing that people do on here, most adding posts end with "well I did step into RvR, guess I was taking my chances", something people here dont seem to accept.

Personally I have had the odd person relog to mid and PM me for adding etc, and generally they are quite nice about it, and usually it ends up being a sorta freindly challenge to avoid each other afterwards

I think the difference with the US servers is simply numbers - it isnt possible to have solo scraps, unless there is an area that is generally accepted as such by the majority of players. In a way I do have a tiny bit of sympathy with the argument that the game was not intended when made to be anything other than this huge all out realm warfare with no space for 1v1 fights, but its where we are at on Duvet, and within the subslice of the community that has formed around fair numbered fights, I think its important that its recognised as part of server life on the UK cluster, and consideration given, in the interests of server and community health.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I dont know the full ins and outs of this, but I will say that the problem was made worse not by the FG that steamrollered through the dueling ring, but by the abuse from fellow realm m8s and even some enemies who logged alts to PM abuse to them, which was from what I know quite extensive. The E&E didnt really report the dueling until the abuse began. So who is in the wrong here, an FG for killing enemies in the frontiers, or the abusive players who then ruined it for everyone else? Perhaps if the abuse hadnt taken place, it might have been left alone?

Both sides of the coin here, just my tuppence worth, i might not have the full facts tho.

If there is abuse, it should be reported, no one can tolerate that. However, it would be very interesting to see what the 'abuse' was, as one mans abuse is another mans polite request. It was a fit of pique because they failed to farm rps. The issue of abuse is entirely seperate and should be treated as such., if such an issue even existed.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

I think the difference with the US servers is simply numbers - it isnt possible to have solo scraps, unless there is an area that is generally accepted as such by the majority of players. In a way I do have a tiny bit of sympathy with the argument that the game was not intended when made to be anything other than this huge all out realm warfare with no space for 1v1 fights, but its where we are at on Duvet, and within the subslice of the community that has formed around fair numbered fights, I think its important that its recognised as part of server life on the UK cluster, and consideration given, in the interests of server and community health.

I do sympathise with the Dyvet situation, dont get me wrong there. The original question has gone from "Waht do you find greifing" to "Define your playstyle and how you think other should play" here, I think thats where this is going wrong.

Respecting people in this game for their playstyle is impossible, my rules in RvR are "Red n Dead", I will add because from experince, most others have done so on me, and Im not going to make a list of those who dont, and when I have respected many 1v1, I have experienced also that the 1v1 I leave turned into a 2v1 and my realm m8 is creamed by someone else that adds as I walk away, then I too have 2 to deal with. Its chickens and eggs all the time.

On US, they do have areas they say for dueling, normally a spot in agramon. But they are also the first to say "at your own risk", so no one is dissapointed when they get steamrollered upon arrival, or getting added on by a passing player. Yet they maintain their "solo" status respect, /release and repeat without complaint, well 95% do, they others are ex-EU.

Back on topic, my statement about greifing is what I beleive has driven a lot of lower ranking new players as well as old players out. Take a step back and actually read the debates on FH, prydwen.net of any EU forum, its all doom and gloom whines and acusations about not playing right, hardly a great advocate for the game we know and love.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I do sympathise with the Dyvet situation, dont get me wrong there. The original question has gone from "Waht do you find greifing" to "Define your playstyle and how you think other should play" here, I think thats where this is going wrong.

Respecting people in this game for their playstyle is impossible, my rules in RvR are "Red n Dead", I will add because from experince, most others have done so on me, and Im not going to make a list of those who dont, and when I have respected many 1v1, I have experienced also that the 1v1 I leave turned into a 2v1 and my realm m8 is creamed by someone else that adds as I walk away, then I too have 2 to deal with. Its chickens and eggs all the time.

On US, they do have areas they say for dueling, normally a spot in agramon. But they are also the first to say "at your own risk", so no one is dissapointed when they get steamrollered upon arrival, or getting added on by a passing player. Yet they maintain their "solo" status respect, /release and repeat without complaint, well 95% do, they others are ex-EU.

Back on topic, my statement about greifing is what I beleive has driven a lot of lower ranking new players as well as old players out. Take a step back and actually read the debates on FH, prydwen.net of any EU forum, its all doom and gloom whines and acusations about not playing right, hardly a great advocate for the game we know and love.

Well for me, the reason ive helped run this thread off its tracks is because I do think that the work shark did on the griefing definition was pretty definitive.

I also agree that there is no black and white on this issue, but if you look back through my recent posts on these too threads (drivel as they are!) i'm not approaching it from a position of black and white, but rather trying to argue for the general principle that people should have a bit of room within how they play, to at least at times (even if just for the duration of one toe2toe) respect that those two players just want to test each other in an ostensibly fair scrap. Even if the winner gets rolled, then thats a start. Its this idea of giving each other a bit of cross realm respect (or at least including that possibility in your approach to the game) that ive been arguing for.

This is why (as far as I could decode) though I seemed to be arguing with Ess, I think he already accepted that ideal, even though he often in reality didnt perhaps ever practice it.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

This is why (as far as I could decode) though I seemed to be arguing with Ess, I think he already accepted that ideal, even though he often in reality didnt perhaps ever practice it.

I think I fall into the same category then, I would like to show respect for certain players, both EU and US, but more often that not, I give an inch and either they or someone else, took the mile. Call it once bitten, twice "screw this, kill on sight".

 

[Levin]

Cromcruaich, just for the record, I don't play anymore. I quit about a year and a half ago. I'm just someone who still cares a lot for the game... but I should indeed have mentioned the fact that I no longer play.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I think I fall into the same category then, I would like to show respect for certain players, both EU and US, but more often that not, I give an inch and either they or someone else, took the mile. Call it once bitten, twice "screw this, kill on sight".

Mmm fair enuff, I think a majority do, whereas a minority dont. And it does follow on to a seperate point about giving people chances some times - 3 strikes and your out mentality, starting off with a benefit of the doubt thing as well. But thats me. It is important for the fg lot to have a bit more tolerance and acceptance that mistakes happen, but thats for information only.

The other thing ofc is that on duvet, 1 week of playing 2 hours a night, and you know pretty much the entire population by name.

 

[Esselinithia]

Cromcruaich: Let me ask you a question.

You say: I should see who are soloers who just get attacked on mission like me, and give you many benefits of doubt, and go out of my way to avoid adding on you, and we do it based on mutual respect. Fine.

But the point is: Mutual respect works when you are willing to go out of your way to help me, and the others with similar interests. But so far you were unwilling to do so. Why?

And how do you consider yourself as honest about this issue?

 

[censi]

you can summarise everything the lemons are saying in this thread with the statement...

I sux so I add

Leetist suxed at one point, but the difference is they aspired to get better and play better...

Thats the key difference between lemons and leetist... Lemons played daoc, suxed and got pwned, added for RP, and were content suxing and adding for the rest of their daoc days... leetist played daoc, got pwned, got more motivated to improve and stuck at it till slowly bit by bit they started to win more fights progressivly to the point where they were a real consistently strong opponents.

Leetists understand the game better, leetists are the ones breaking boundaries, trying things moving the game forward....

Lemons are Lemons... They appreciate that the leetists are better than them but are convinced their approach (which ruins the game for all and results in a dead server) is acceptable... (some lemons even site the leetist as the reason the server is dead.. So lame to no add, its ruining the gaming experience!)

 

[Cromcruaich]

Cromcruaich: Let me ask you a question.

You say: I should see who are soloers who just get attacked on mission like me, and give you many benefits of doubt, and go out of my way to avoid adding on you, and we do it based on mutual respect. Fine.

But the point is: Mutual respect works when you are willing to go out of your way to help me, and the others with similar interests. But so far you were unwilling to do so. Why?

And how do you consider yourself as honest about this issue?

I think you really need to rephrase this, as, as far as i'm aware, ive never encountered you in game.

But presuming you werent referring to me directly:

Regarding the point about benefit of the doubt, like I said - that was just me, was just being conversational. Each person has in their own heads what they will and wont let people get away with, its why ive being talking in general terms rather than specifics.

Also I have never said (or meant to imply) go out of my way to avoid adding on you and thats because, you certainly don't in most cases have to go out of the way to avoid adding on someone.

I don't think mutual respect particularly involves going out of your way to help me Though I certainly have helped people from enemy realms in the past, for example by leaving em alone, by pulling off fights when they have been added on, by stunning assasins when they have run into difficulty and probably a few other ways I cant remember. Oh and by just giving them a hug to brighten their day.

I am a little bemused by you wanting to do rvr missions rather than get stuck into some group action - or was that just an example youve being using through the thread?

 

[Xmi]

you can summarise everything the lemons are saying in this thread with the statement...

I sux so I add

Leetist suxed at one point, but the difference is they aspired to get better and play better...

Thats the key difference between lemons and leetist... Lemons played daoc, suxed and got pwned, added for RP, and were content suxing and adding for the rest of their daoc days... leetist played daoc, got pwned, got more motivated to improve and stuck at it till slowly bit by bit they started to win more fights progressivly to the point where they were a real consistently strong opponents.

Leetists understand the game better, leetists are the ones breaking boundaries, trying things moving the game forward....

Lemons are Lemons... They appreciate that the leetists are better than them but are convinced their approach (which ruins the game for all and results in a dead server) is acceptable... (some lemons even site the leetist as the reason the server is dead.. So lame to no add, its ruining the gaming experience!)

Pffft that's just another slant on the low/high RR argument, with a bit of controversial labelling thrown in for a reaction. I am just surprised you didn't tell us which camp you sat in, lemon or leet?

 

[Cromcruaich]

you can summarise everything the lemons are saying in this thread with the statement...

I sux so I add

Leetist suxed at one point, but the difference is they aspired to get better and play better...

Thats the key difference between lemons and leetist... Lemons played daoc, suxed and got pwned, added for RP, and were content suxing and adding for the rest of their daoc days... leetist played daoc, got pwned, got more motivated to improve and stuck at it till slowly bit by bit they started to win more fights progressivly to the point where they were a real consistently strong opponents.

Leetists understand the game better, leetists are the ones breaking boundaries, trying things moving the game forward....

Lemons are Lemons... They appreciate that the leetists are better than them but are convinced their approach (which ruins the game for all and results in a dead server) is acceptable... (some lemons even site the leetist as the reason the server is dead.. So lame to no add, its ruining the gaming experience!)

Way to go to enforce the stereotypes we're trying to move away from.

 

[Xmi]

Way to go to enforce the stereotypes we're trying to move away from.

Totally agree, unfortunately I don't think Censi really gives a fig about either side of the argument, I have rarely seen a post from him that isn't designed to taunt... I guess that's his play-style in life ;-)

 

[censi]

haha hook line and sinker......

you lemons!

(what im saying is said a little tongue in cheek... But to be honest I could have worded it more intelligently to make the same point which is essentially true. What you peeps dont appreciate is that im actually more intelligent than you and even though you have your opinions they are founded on insight that is generally inferior to my gaming experience... In short im right and your ignorent ((ignorent actually means "not knowning"))....

 

[Levin]

ignorent actually means "not knowning....

I'm sorry to have to do this, but you deserve it.

It's IGNORANT and KNOWING!

Fool.

 

[Xmi]

I'm sorry to have to do this, but you deserve it.

It's IGNORANT and KNOWING!

Fool.

That was class /salute

 

[Shike]

rofl Censi stop baiting imo ^^