News Weird Eco Communism on the Beeb

[rynnor]

BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | A tale of how it turned out right

Anyone who talks about re-distributing wealth is a commie in my book - its never proved sucessfull or popular in the past why try again?

I find the ultra-eco lot a bunch of nauseating hypocrits tbh - they whinge on about how wrong capitalism is whilst simultaneously enjoying all its benefits.

They see the current popularity of global warming as an opportunity to try and foist their unworkable ideas on the rest of us

 

[Chilly]

wealth redistribution happens all the time. what do you think inheritance tax is?

 

[Mabs]

what do you think inheritance tax is?

fucking outrageous ?

 

[rynnor]

wealth redistribution happens all the time. what do you think inheritance tax is?

Easily avoidable?

People with the most dont pay it so its tough to see that as wealth re-distribution

 

[dub]

your book is wrong , re-distributing wealth is obviously not the same as collective ownership of property and production facilities.

 

[DaGaffer]

There's nothing surprising in this; when "red" was discredited, the same people simply painted themselves green. Two things about the article raise alarm bells; first of all, there's no actual link to the original paper; never a good sign, especially as it mentions unpalateble things like 67% inheritance tax, and compulsory land purchase. Second, is this phrase:

"It provides a blueprint - or rather, a greenprint - for how the UK can make a step-change in delivering quality of life for all, whilst living within our collective environmental means."

What's the word missing from this sentence? Clue, it goes between "delivering" and "quality".

 

[rynnor]

Heres the highlights from that paper - it does actually mention transferring land and property to the state:

"Creating a universal Citizen’s Endowment of between £40,000 and £50,000 to give every adult an equal chance in life and the opportunity to invest in education, a business or local productive assets. This would be funded by a phased rise in inheritance tax on all estates up to 67% and go a major way to reducing the massive inequalities of inherited wealth in the UK.

Land and property transferred to state and then redistributed to communities, forming community land trusts, where land is commonly owned and managed on a stewardship basis by communities, underpinning the provision of affordable or social housing.

Redistributing working time by instituting a four day working week for all that would enable the 1/3rd reduction in GDP without major loss of jobs

A major reorganisation of business, with publicly listed companies progressively transferring shares to their staff, giving them a real stake in and control over the companies where they work. This would lead to the creation of a series of co-operatives, operating in regulated markets, and subject to competition from new companies. Such a process would fundamentally change power relations within workplaces, creating a form of ‘economic democracy’.

New variable consumption taxes, replacing income tax, reflecting the social and environmental costs of goods. A windfall tax on the profits of fossil fuel companies, for example, could channel funds into clean energy projects.

Direct government created credit for large-scale green energy and transport projects, channelled through a national Green Investment Bank

A new national Housing Bank, offering people the opportunity to transfer a portion of their mortgage debt into equity and paying social rent on the balance.

New regulations on private banks’ reserve requirements directly related to the social and environmental value of investments, creating a ‘race to the top’ and reducing speculation and ‘credit bubbles’ "

 

[Chilly]

fucking outrageous ?

Frankly I think it's sensible. It stops money becoming stagnant and drives the next generation to work hard for their own fat stack of loot.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I find the ultra-eco lot a bunch of nauseating hypocrits tbh - they whinge on about how wrong capitalism is whilst simultaneously enjoying all its benefits

Same goes for other eco-lots, world savers who say nuclear etc are bad and still enjoy electricity

Or how about the pinnacle? Save the trees signs at protests?

 

[rynnor]

Hah - I just noticed that nef are part funded by National Lottery money - there's wealth redistribution for you

 

[Tom]

So basically this bloke wants to remove all incentives for people to work hard and improve their lot. Instead, the state will do that for you.

Except it won't, and historically, it never has. The man is a fool.

 

[Jeros]

Such fear of communism

 

[ECA]

Anyone who talks about re-distributing wealth is a commie in my book - its never proved sucessfull or popular in the past why try again?

I find the ultra-eco lot a bunch of nauseating hypocrits tbh - they whinge on about how wrong capitalism is whilst simultaneously enjoying all its benefits.

They see the current popularity of global warming as an opportunity to try and foist their unworkable ideas on the rest of us

Actually America went through it's biggest longterm growth when income tax on the rich was at it's highest.

The fuck you talking about?

But +1 on telling the eco whacks to fuck off.

 

[Zenith]

wealthredistribution is communism? Wow, Sweden have been a communistnation without my knowledge for as long as I can remember, and still is in some sense!

 

[rynnor]

wealthredistribution is communism? Wow, Sweden have been a communistnation without my knowledge for as long as I can remember, and still is in some sense!

No- true wealth re-distribution would mean everyone loses everything then the state assigns you what it wants - I'm pretty sure that doesnt happen in Sweden

 

[Mabs]

Frankly I think it's sensible. It stops money becoming stagnant and drives the next generation to work hard for their own fat stack of loot.

up to a certain point and then NO MORE, cos you get nobbled

me? bitter? pffft

 

[rynnor]

Such fear of communism

Not fear I just find it ridiculous that anyone could seriously suggest it again after its great failures.

 

[Jeros]

Not fear I just find it ridiculous that anyone could seriously suggest it again after its great failures.

Im sure it could be re-worked, alter and mashed up into something that works, as it seems no one wants to fix capitalism

 

[Tom]

Im sure it could be re-worked, alter and mashed up into something that works, as it seems no one wants to fix capitalism

The state has just decreed that you do not need your computer, and that your house is too large.

Also, your chosen career is ill-suited to the requirements of society, therefore you shall be a coal miner.


Happy now?

 

[DaGaffer]

wealthredistribution is communism? Wow, Sweden have been a communistnation without my knowledge for as long as I can remember, and still is in some sense!

I'm very cynical about Sweden as a model; low population density makes for irrelevant comparisons with the more populous European countries, and no offence, but having dealt with the Swedish arm of two companies, there's no incentive to work hard and foreign workers are valued because they're far less lazy, provided they don't stay too long. (Back in the day an English mate of mine worked for Saab Aircraft; this was before Sweden joined the EU, and English and German workers were brought in, immediately became team leaders over the Swedes because the Swedes couldn't be arsed working, and then the foreigners were kicked out after a year - why did the foreigners work hard? Tax free earnings).

As for giving everybody 50 grand to get an education or whatever; that model never works because that figure simply becomes the baseline and costs rise up to meet it.

 

[Chilly]

up to a certain point and then NO MORE, cos you get nobbled

me? bitter? pffft

Who gets nobbled? You got less free money than you wanted? You had to sell the free house, or get amortgage on it, to pay the tax?

boo hoo.

 

[Scouse]

Anyone who talks about re-distributing wealth is a commie in my book

A ridiculously simple argument. So blinkered.

I find the ultra-eco lot a bunch of nauseating hypocrits tbh - they whinge on about how wrong capitalism is whilst simultaneously enjoying all its benefits

They can't help the world they live in?

What are they supposed to do? I'm betting your viewpoint is they should go and live in mud huts and just watch enviously from afar? After all, if they think differently from you they deserve a shit standard of life eh?

They're human beings, just like the rest of us. They feel the same feelings we do. They have kids that they want the best for, just like anyone else. You think they should lower their children's standard of living relative to everyone elses? Humans don't work like that - and it doesn't make their political viewpoints any less valid.

I'm strongly anti-capitalist (anyone with half a brain and a critical mind can see that it's failings are just as bad as communism's was - and in many cases worse). I'm not a dirty red "commie" either.

I live in Britain, which has capitalist rules that I must live by. Partly because I'm anti-capitalist I formed my own company so I could benefit from not having to feel like a slave of the capitalist corporate model. But that's about all I can do.

How else am I supposed to live Rynnor? Them's the rules of the land, no matter how much I disagree with them...

And give me a *real* choice. Not one which says I have to live a much more shit life than everyone else around me. (Arguments along that line are the refuge of the weak minded).

 

[Scouse]

Easily avoidable?

People with the most dont pay it so its tough to see that as wealth re-distribution

You're right!

It's a tool used under the capitalist model that keeps rich people rich whilst limiting the ability of the masses to pass on accumulated wealth to their children.

You LOVE that, don't you? Being capitalist and all...

 

[Scouse]

Such fear of communism

Quite rightly so.

What you're seeing here, though, is more than that. As they guy in the article calls it: a fatal failure of imagination.

 

[Bodhi]

Hmmm. An anti-capatalist who

a) started his own company
b) is more than happy to use the products of capitalism, such as computers or t'internet
c) follows one of the most capitalist things of them all, the Premier League.


I really have heard it all. I honestly didn't realise just how hypocritical the leftie hippies had got.

They're wasting all our good oxygen if you ask me....

 

[rynnor]

You're right!

It's a tool used under the capitalist model that keeps rich people rich whilst limiting the ability of the masses to pass on accumulated wealth to their children.

You LOVE that, don't you? Being capitalist and all...

Fine by me - nothing I couldnt work around like the rest

 

[rynnor]

They can't help the world they live in?

What are they supposed to do? I'm betting your viewpoint is they should go and live in mud huts and just watch enviously from afar? After all, if they think differently from you they deserve a shit standard of life eh?

Sure - why not? Thats effectively the logical progression of Eco complainers that they want everyone to go back to - why should anyone listen if the lack the courage of their convictions?

They're human beings, just like the rest of us. They feel the same feelings we do. They have kids that they want the best for, just like anyone else. You think they should lower their children's standard of living relative to everyone elses?

Your saying its ok to live like that as long as they can force everyone to do so - seriously lol

Humans don't work like that - and it doesn't make their political viewpoints any less valid

Of course it does - its like a green campaigner who owns a private jet - it pretty much destroys their position.

I live in Britain, which has capitalist rules that I must live by. Partly because I'm anti-capitalist I formed my own company so I could benefit from not having to feel like a slave of the capitalist corporate model. But that's about all I can do.

How else am I supposed to live Rynnor? Them's the rules of the land, no matter how much I disagree with them...

Move to another country then - if you hate it that much then why do you stay here complaining?

And give me a *real* choice. Not one which says I have to live a much more shit life than everyone else around me. (Arguments along that line are the refuge of the weak minded).

North Korea sounds your kind of place - you can enjoy the same standard of living as everybody else there - should be heaven for you

 

[Scouse]

Hmmm. An anti-capatalist who

a) started his own company

To the best of my knowledge people had companies before we went down the capitalist route? Like, for hundreds if not thousands of years?

Methinks you don't really understand what capitalism is?

b) is more than happy to use the products of capitalism, such as computers or t'internet

So we couldn't have developed these things without capitalism? IIRC the development of most of these technological advances (and specifically these two) have been mostly due to war (or the threat thereof) anyway...

Nice of you to ignore my points in the previous post about humans not acting in a way that harms themselves as well.

Maybe I should live in a mud hut and get rid of electricity too? How about the air in England? It's capitalist air. Can I breathe it?

They're wasting all our good oxygen if you ask me...

Ah....

c) follows one of the most capitalist things of them all, the Premier League.

Guilty.

However, since the inception of the "Premier" league Footie's been SHIT for most fans. If you're not in the top 3/don't have a middle eastern oil baron sugar daddy you're never going to win anything. And everyone seems OK with it! Strange that - as they've got no other choice.

Ah, poor poor Norwich...

I'd gladly give up Liverpool's financial superiority for a level, competitive, playing field. Imagine a league that could be won on sporting prowess alone eh?!

I really have heard it all. I honestly didn't realise just how hypocritical the leftie hippies had got.

And I've fessed up to my hypocracy - and asked directly for useful suggestions for a different way to live?

But that's a bit hard to come by eh Bods? Got a better suggestion on how I can live my life in capitalist Britain?

:kissit:

 

[Bodhi]

I'm sorry Scouse, but do you actually read your inane drivel before you press submit?

Companies before we went Capatalist? No, companies were the beginning of capitalism. Where do you think they got the idea from? Capitalism existed long before commie pinko leftie hippy time wasting shit, that was the alternative. The alternative which the Russians proved, didn't work.

Can we develop technology without war? Well yeah quite easily. Especially considering when "IT" was invented we weren't actually at war with anyone? I mean the "Cold War" was going on at the time, but that was mainly smoke and mirrors. The cold war was mainly fabricated to keep the peons in line (much like climate change in fact), so calling that war time? No, not really.

Liverpool's financial superiority? Are you taking the piss? They can;t even afford to sack their useless manager at the moment, and won't dip their hands in their pockets to sign the players they need to go from eternal also rans, to a team that can actually challenge the Chelseas and Man U's of the world. If Rooney/Ferdinand can;t play Utd can cope. If Chelsea are without Lampard and Terry they can cope. If Liverfool don't have Gerrard/Torres they are fucked.

And to dig your own grave, you ask for better ways to live your life. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but you're one of the few unhappy with how things work, the rest of us don;t have an issue. So maybe, it comes down to you to figure out how to improve things? Criticism is great when it's constructive, however with your complete absence of ideas about how we can fix things, it just seems like cynicism. Which does your cause as much good as finding out Mugabe is on your side.

In short, shush.

 

[Zenith]

I'm very cynical about Sweden as a model; low population density makes for irrelevant comparisons with the more populous European countries, and no offence, but having dealt with the Swedish arm of two companies, there's no incentive to work hard and foreign workers are valued because they're far less lazy, provided they don't stay too long. (Back in the day an English mate of mine worked for Saab Aircraft; this was before Sweden joined the EU, and English and German workers were brought in, immediately became team leaders over the Swedes because the Swedes couldn't be arsed working, and then the foreigners were kicked out after a year - why did the foreigners work hard? Tax free earnings).

As for giving everybody 50 grand to get an education or whatever; that model never works because that figure simply becomes the baseline and costs rise up to meet it.

Thats possible the most rubbish post I have read. Foreigners kicked out? That havent happened in ages afaik, dont even know where you ground that idea from, if you dont count asylumimmigration, which is a bit of a problem but doesnt have anything to do with workers.

Tax free earnings? Sweden is a country with a reasonable high tax on its citizens, and with a skyhigh welfare. ( Was the case until rightwing got into power, we'll see just how they will change things here ). I think you have somehow shaped your view of Sweden BEFORE we joined the EU, which was ages ago.

Foreigners might become teamleaders, but its in no way something spectacular, good for them. Actually, the case in Sweden now a days is that foreigners come here and get to take the shit jobs cus of a kind of racist view from the managers. Something being proven in and out again.

We are one of the leading countries of knowledge workers, I dont know where you got the idea that we got no incentive to work from.