We Need Mythic's POV

[chretien]

i would also love to know where you are getting your information from, how would you know people haven't cancelled their auto renew/accounts, how would you know Mythic don't read these boards? it will take a few weeks to see what the true damage of GOA's latest balls up is but on a server with such a low population even the loss of 100 prime time players is a disaster. (see SH "ZOMG i quit" thread, also Celtic Llaw are 50+ strong now)

I obviously don't know that people aren't cancelling their auto-renew. I'm just looking at the server numbers and they really aren't dropping all that much. I'll keep an eye on them this weekend to be sure but we're still getting ~700-1000 players primetime which is roughly what we've had for the last couple of months. You're assuming that 100 players leaving = 100 less people on the daily numbers. That's not the case, it just means that 100 out of the couple of thousand or so people playing on the cluster have moved on.

I just left because of it, there are at least a couple of posts on the hib section that suggest the same. Keep to facts pelase

Generalising is bad. I'm not suggesting that not a single person has left because of it I'm just saying that the majority haven't. I still think it's a weak reason because as I said earlier, there's not a single DAoC server where there's no AC raiding. Leaving the game due to AC raiding is one thing, switching servers because of it is like moving to a different part of the sea to avoid getting wet.

well, this is wrong, here have been atleast 1 post from sanya.
they read, how often? different question.

Has there? I just searched and couldn't find anything like that. If you know different please link it. I can't see why they would read here, keeping up with the VN boards is a full time job and those people pay them directly unlike us Euros.

Sharkith: I still maintain that your previous poll and campaign was divisive because all it served to do was highlight the stark differences in opinion on the server and invite people on both sides to start flinging crap around. Dealing with it in this way is much more constructive as it's not pitting the community against itself but is attempting to reconcile the two sides through dialogue with Goa.

I suspect I am probably one of the people you're talking about in your post above, but I don't see that our differences are so great. I don't enforce my playstyle on others, I don't set out to decry the choices other people make. I play to have fun, I play with my friends and I just want to get on and play the game. I have a job and a life so I only play primetime mostly and at weekends. I don't care if you get your jollies running a perfectly opted group against other opted groups, whether you like surfing the zerg, running solo, keep raiding at 5am or whatever floats your boat. All I ask is that you don't begrudge me my playstyle either. A lot of what I've seen in the game and on FH is increasingly a minority of players (and I'm not including you in this, as I said in a different thread, I really don't know you or how you play) trying to enforce their very rigid 'honour codes' (read: advantageous terms to them) on everyone and loudly declaiming anyone who doesn't sign up to it. These are the people that I will be glad to see leave. There's room on the server for many different styles of play but for a couple of years now we casual players have been on the sharp end of a vicious campaign of whine and toy-throwing. Now those same people are saying they'll quit and you can't see why a good number of people are happy about that?

 

[Gahn]

I obviously don't know that people aren't cancelling their auto-renew. I'm just looking at the server numbers and they really aren't dropping all that much. I'll keep an eye on them this weekend to be sure but we're still getting ~700-1000 players primetime which is roughly what we've had for the last couple of months. You're assuming that 100 players leaving = 100 less people on the daily numbers. That's not the case, it just means that 100 out of the couple of thousand or so people playing on the cluster have moved on.


Generalising is bad. I'm not suggesting that not a single person has left because of it I'm just saying that the majority haven't. I still think it's a weak reason because as I said earlier, there's not a single DAoC server where there's no AC raiding. Leaving the game due to AC raiding is one thing, switching servers because of it is like moving to a different part of the sea to avoid getting wet.


Has there? I just searched and couldn't find anything like that. If you know different please link it. I can't see why they would read here, keeping up with the VN boards is a full time job and those people pay them directly unlike us Euros.

Sharkith: I suspect I am probably one of the people you're talking about in your post above, but I don't see that our differences are so great. I don't enforce my playstyle on others, I don't set out to decry the choices other people make. I play to have fun, I play with my friends and I just want to get on and play the game. I have a job and a life so I only play primetime mostly and at weekends. I don't care if you get your jollies running a perfectly opted group against other opted groups, whether you like surfing the zerg, running solo, keep raiding at 5am or whatever floats your boat. All I ask is that you don't begrudge me my playstyle either. A lot of what I've seen in the game and on FH is increasingly a minority of players (and I'm not including you in this, as I said in a different thread, I really don't know you or how you play) trying to enforce their very rigid 'honour codes' (read: advantageous terms to them) on everyone and loudly declaiming anyone who doesn't sign up to it. These are the people that I will be glad to see leave. There's room on the server for many different styles of play but for a couple of years now we casual players have been on the sharp end of a vicious campaign of whine and toy-throwing. Now those same people are saying they'll quit and you can't see why a good number of people are happy about that?

Now i got ya, u are Chanticleer on warhammeralliance forums ain't u?
That explains most of things xD
And be aware, claiming to know why people took decisions is, to say the least, pretentious.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

I had no clue you had been in that game for so long! It tells me a lot about your attitude though because you are very uncompromising when you post and that fits Eve better than DaoC in my book. Explains you a lot - I often wondered what people here would make of the nutcases over there on the Eve forums?

Hehe, beta 6 I started and then on release from day one. Was really great. I am (not) (un)compromising, I like to see things black and white while I know that the truth is most of the time somewhere in the middle .

EVE has/had it's own nutcases on the forums, e.g. Molly - Forum personality, pirate-hater and then a very high-profile pirate. - Joshua and Jade I'd say were the biggest ones.

Here is a funny auto-pilot-accident (http://files.filefront.com/Sally_meets_CELES_DivXavi/;6314103;;/fileinfo.html) movie from the old times, it is a bit long winded, but if you like Orbital you should be okay. Note, that there haven't been any cap drainers, cap rechargers or armor repairers back then that were worth fitting and I couldn't fight back, jammed.

Lot's of off topic by us, should prolly move this to FH EVE forum.

 

[Darzil]

There's room on the server for many different styles of play but for a couple of years now we casual players have been on the sharp end of a vicious campaign of whine and toy-throwing. Now those same people are saying they'll quit and you can't see why a good number of people are happy about that?

I can see why a good number of people wouldn't be sorry about that.

However, there is a big difference between being happy, and posting on a board that they are happy, thus rubbing salt in open wounds. There is far too much of that in this section of FH, and it just drives the community apart and escalates the migration away from the Cluster.

I wonder how many people we'd have on the Cluster without all the intolerance and hate posts.

Darzil

 

[Eeben]

Link?

im pretty sure i have seen her post to here once in general but cant remember what it was about

 

[chretien]

Now i got ya, u are Chanticleer on warhammeralliance forums ain't u?
That explains most of things xD
And be aware, claiming to know why people took decisions is, to say the least, pretentious.

Might be
I'm not claiming to know why individuals took decisions, that's clearly up to them. I'm talking about generalities, why 'people' as a whole rather than 'this person specifically' are moving. There have always been server migrations, a certain slice of the community has always looked to the next green pasture, this episode is nothing new. Ever since it stopped being utterly horrible to level, people looking primarily for competitive FG action have been rerolling and moving around different servers. Some people have always followed in their wake when they read the 'it's so cool over here' threads. The only thing different about this particular cycle of musical servers is that the population is lower than it was for previous ones so the perception is that it's a much bigger movement.

 

[Jupiter]

Might be
I'm not claiming to know why individuals took decisions, that's clearly up to them. I'm talking about generalities, why 'people' as a whole rather than 'this person specifically' are moving. There have always been server migrations, a certain slice of the community has always looked to the next green pasture, this episode is nothing new. Ever since it stopped being utterly horrible to level, people looking primarily for competitive FG action have been rerolling and moving around different servers. Some people have always followed in their wake when they read the 'it's so cool over here' threads. The only thing different about this particular cycle of musical servers is that the population is lower than it was for previous ones so the perception is that it's a much bigger movement.

Ya see thats where u are wrong, NFD as a guild always frowned upon the idea of starting anew on some other server. We mocked the classic server idea, the shards, the pvp server all these ideas that people came up with. We were Hib/Prydwen till it died. We are/were one of the biggest guilds on the Hib prydwen/excal cluster, we never viewed ourselves are elitist and accommadated all types of playstyles and play hours. For us to move to Avalon was a big step, especially for me (I've invested 4 years into my char and a few months ago dinged rr11), but it was made easy and i just have to sit back and ask why. I used to log on frustrated after we spent the night before tryiing to do a primtime rr with mastade/aran/others only for some wankers to undo the effort at 5am

I cant speak german, but we have 37+ members on avalon atm and enjoying it............

 

[Sharkith]

I suspect I am probably one of the people you're talking about in your post above, but I don't see that our differences are so great. I don't enforce my playstyle on others, I don't set out to decry the choices other people make. I play to have fun, I play with my friends and I just want to get on and play the game. I have a job and a life so I only play primetime mostly and at weekends. I don't care if you get your jollies running a perfectly opted group against other opted groups, whether you like surfing the zerg, running solo, keep raiding at 5am or whatever floats your boat. All I ask is that you don't begrudge me my playstyle either. A lot of what I've seen in the game and on FH is increasingly a minority of players (and I'm not including you in this, as I said in a different thread, I really don't know you or how you play) trying to enforce their very rigid 'honour codes' (read: advantageous terms to them) on everyone and loudly declaiming anyone who doesn't sign up to it. These are the people that I will be glad to see leave. There's room on the server for many different styles of play but for a couple of years now we casual players have been on the sharp end of a vicious campaign of whine and toy-throwing. Now those same people are saying they'll quit and you can't see why a good number of people are happy about that?

Chretien,

your not one of the people I am talking about in my post because what you say you do is exactly what I have always argued for in game. I did find your posts insensitive but hey - we are adults and can get over that.

The only real difference between our perspectives is that for me it is not simply a case of it being a zero sum game (read this if you leave me alone I will leave you alone). The decision by GOA whilst totally understandable generates a bias in favour of a certain playstyle. Thats why many people are unhappy. I am unhappy but like I said to SoulJA you need to understand the terms of reference being given to you and move on. To remain in a state clinging to old beliefs about how things are will only eventually end in self delusion.

On that point it is deeply unsettling and sad that many people are forced to leave the game because the game itself is not well structured to accommodate an evolution of perspectives (read Darzil's post here). Nothing has been done by Mythic to accomodate or even find ways to unite playstyles. That is sad and it is contributing to the fall in population in the game (I do think the statistics show a down turn certainly in Europe). It is almost as though a 3 way realm war is the last thing to be said.

Why couldn't they think about allowing player led rebellions against the realms? Why not incorporate 24/7 players by making them essential to keeping territory for a player led alliances of Mids, Hibs and Albs in a new zone where even economic management of say villages becomes vital to an alliances survival.

Like I said I think this particualr incident tells us a lot about the limitations of Daoc. Now you can decide you no longer like it or just live with it. You are happy to live with it. I am getting an attack of claustrophobia. Hence why I feel kind of glad to have escaped the deep set problems for a little while longer.

 

[Darzil]

One thing I must say in defence of 3 way war is that it has led to far, far more balance in rvr than the 2 way war of WoW.

3 sides will always tend to stop one having total domination, which is good for the game.

Darzil

 

[Moaning Myrtle]

I cant speak german, but we have 37+ members on avalon atm and enjoying it............

May I ask, if you can't speak German, how do you interact with the rest of the server? Isn't it hard?

 

[Gahn]

May I ask, if you can't speak German, how do you interact with the rest of the server? Isn't it hard?

Most of em understands english and we setting up an English speaking alliance over there.

 

[Moaning Myrtle]

Most of em understands english and we setting up an English speaking alliance over there.

On Hibernia Avalon?

 

[chretien]

..stuff..

In my eyes Darzil nailed it in the post that you linked to, but then I've played alongside Darzil for a long time (we co-led a guild together at one point) and known him for longer than we've been playing DAoC. When it comes to playing the game his views have always been very close to my own.

Your points are good ones but addressing them to anyone but Mythic is pretty futile. You'll get feedback here but nothing more concrete than agreement or disagreement. For me the game doesn't need to change. I still play the way I played four years ago when my level 13 Paladin ran the gauntlet of Blood and all the other stealthers on the old Excalibur road to help my realm. Some players wanted the game to change and tried to mould it to their vision with varying degrees of success. Those of us who take the game for what it is and let it shape us rather than the other way around are still having fun.

 

[Cromcruaich]

lets keep a rolling count next year... ha

you'll be lucky if there is a next year for cluster.

 

[Sharkith]

Those of us who take the game for what it is and let it shape us rather than the other way around are still having fun.

A company that wants to survive and make a profit needs to consider a product that evolves rather than remains static and fixed. You might be having fun the evidence is that a lot of people seem to become more and more disatisfied over time.

 

[Cromcruaich]

I am getting an attack of claustrophobia. Hence why I feel kind of glad to have escaped the deep set problems for a little while longer.

Ahh very succinctly put, that sums it up exactly for me as well.

 

[Cromcruaich]

On Hibernia Avalon?

Naw, mid/ava. 40+ on lastnight. Really good buzz going on, and all getting along. Kinda fun levelling and starting a fresh, and though I initially thought it would be a big wrench to move, leaving behind all those months of real time gameplay, its actually not too bad.

I think the biggest thing is that youve got a whole new set of goals to aim for - which is what every mmorpg is about.

Anyway, think this is the last chance for daoc for a lot of us, so we gotta make the best of it, or ship out.

Only thing I do miss is messing about solo for short bursts on the eldie.

 

[Gahn]

On Hibernia Avalon?

Midgard Avalon.

 

[Ctuchik]

I didn't say everyone agreed, I said a lot of people agreed.

no, a few ppl agreed with goa while the majority didnt. u cant say its "alot" if even more disagree with those ppl.

 

[chretien]

A company that wants to survive and make a profit needs to consider a product that evolves rather than remains static and fixed. You might be having fun the evidence is that a lot of people seem to become more and more disatisfied over time.

Fair point but how should the game evolve? According to your views? According to mine? According to the ideas of randomly picked person in the game? According to a login poll? Mythic can change it unilaterally but there is no real incentive for them to do that and a big disincentive (in the forms of massive amounts of inevitable whine). We could go with majority rule where players are constantly polled on login about how they view the game. I suspect though that the vocal minority (which includes me) would find that the majority of players (who don't go near forums) have a very different view of the game to that espoused on forums - by either side.
Either they leave it as it is, and remain true to their original design concept presented 'as is' or they change it as they go and risk alienating the people who brought them to where they are now.

 

[Ctuchik]

i love it how all the US renegades ignore the fact that they are the biggest problem why the EU servers are going down the drain...

you moving to US servers ARE the problem, u do realise that right?

and still i see many of those same ppl comming here blaming GOA for the low pop when they themself are the reason to it...

 

[Asha]

Fair point but how should the game evolve? According to your views? According to mine? According to the ideas of randomly picked person in the game? According to a login poll? Mythic can change it unilaterally but there is no real incentive for them to do that and a big disincentive (in the forms of massive amounts of inevitable whine). We could go with majority rule where players are constantly polled on login about how they view the game. I suspect though that the vocal minority (which includes me) would find that the majority of players (who don't go near forums) have a very different view of the game to that espoused on forums - by either side.
Either they leave it as it is, and remain true to their original design concept presented 'as is' or they change it as they go and risk alienating the people who brought them to where they are now.

according to whoever whines first and hardest, apparently.

 

[Gahn]

i love it how all the US renegades ignore the fact that they are the biggest problem why the EU servers are going down the drain...

you moving to US servers ARE the problem, u do realise that right?

and still i see many of those same ppl comming here blaming GOA for the low pop when they themself are the reason to it...

Never grazed your mind that some left BECAUSE of Goa? ^^

 

[klasa]

i love it how all the US renegades ignore the fact that they are the biggest problem why the EU servers are going down the drain...

you moving to US servers ARE the problem, u do realise that right?

and still i see many of those same ppl comming here blaming GOA for the low pop when they themself are the reason to it...

Hmmm, what's your IQ again?

 

[Sharkith]

Fair point but how should the game evolve? According to your views? According to mine? According to the ideas of randomly picked person in the game? According to a login poll? Mythic can change it unilaterally but there is no real incentive for them to do that and a big disincentive (in the forms of massive amounts of inevitable whine). We could go with majority rule where players are constantly polled on login about how they view the game. I suspect though that the vocal minority (which includes me) would find that the majority of players (who don't go near forums) have a very different view of the game to that espoused on forums - by either side.
Either they leave it as it is, and remain true to their original design concept presented 'as is' or they change it as they go and risk alienating the people who brought them to where they are now.

Quite easy to do. Look at the current problems - 3 Realms of disharmony. Start by thinking along the lines of keeping the existing structure because it works fairly well and then allowing something like a player led rebellion where alliances fight for their own autonomous parts of a zone.

So you have the current thing but then players can elect to become exiles of their home realm but they are cut off from income in the form of money from RvR kills and in order to survive they have to protect a territory or watch their income be starved.

Like fusing Camlann with the current frontier zone. What do you fight for - the realm of Midgard, Hibernia, Albion or do you attempt to become the leader or a part of a rogue faction that claims some part of an autonomous zone for its own? It could be called "Dark Age of Calemot: 'The Rebellion'!" or "Dark Age of Calemot Fusion."

The dynamic totally shifts. Big RvR guilds no longer score prestige from being good at 8vs8 rvr they are forced to play the game 24/7 they need sleepless people. They need zergs to defend their territory.

You leave your home realm become and exile and your cast out into a world like Camlann totally PvP at all times no free zones no security. To get back you have to perform a rite of passage a quest in the forntier zones faced by attacks on all sides. Make it tough but make it interesting and allow room for big Alliances to fight for their own zones....

Chretien the possibilities are easy to envisage to be honest. But you simply have to look at what people are telling you and stop thinking that they should just see it the way you do.

 

[Cromcruaich]

i love it how all the US renegades ignore the fact that they are the biggest problem why the EU servers are going down the drain...

you moving to US servers ARE the problem, u do realise that right?

and still i see many of those same ppl comming here blaming GOA for the low pop when they themself are the reason to it...

How about this for an analogy.

I hold a party and invite 20 people. Once the party is in full swing, I kick 10 of them in the nuts repeatedly, whereupon they leave, thereby ruining the party (now admittedly i'm now like a pig in shit, coz all im left with is people who aint got nuts to be kicked in).

Who is to blame for ruining the party, the people who i kicked in the nuts who subsequently left, or me for kicking them in the nuts in the first place?

 

[tierk]

How about this for an analogy.

I hold a party and invite 20 people. Once the party is in full swing, I kick 10 of them in the nuts repeatedly, whereupon they leave, thereby ruining the party (now admittedly i'm now like a pig in shit, coz all im left with is people who aint got nuts to be kicked in).

Who is to blame for ruining the party, the people who i kicked in the nuts who subsequently left, or me for kicking them in the nuts in the first place?

lol nice analogy that about sums it up mate, very nicely put

 

[Imon]

peeps get bored, they hear someone say US server rox. the RVR is pure pwn the yanks rox... we going US. They post on how great it is and they are lvl 29 already after 2 days play, and how theres 65943432 people on mid last night...

They get their toon ready. Go rvr. Oh its exactly the same but more people.

The problem with daoc is not the amount of people. Its the mentality of the people and the dynamics of the end game itself. (end game doesnt promote good play, and demote bad play. In fact its the other way around)

tbh 500 players primetime would suite me to a tee. no FG's prolly almost exclusivly soloers and small gimped mini groups with squidgy casters.

This is very hard for me...... but.... for..... the first..... time..... I.................agree with you:eek2:

 

[Sparx]

How about this for an analogy.

I hold a party and invite 20 people. Once the party is in full swing, I kick 10 of them in the nuts repeatedly, whereupon they leave, thereby ruining the party (now admittedly i'm now like a pig in shit, coz all im left with is people who aint got nuts to be kicked in).

Who is to blame for ruining the party, the people who i kicked in the nuts who subsequently left, or me for kicking them in the nuts in the first place?

Does mean tho all the blokes have left so its just you and the girls.

That analogy works on so many levels

 

[Tallen]

well, this is wrong, here have been atleast 1 post from sanya.
they read, how often? different question.

Highly unlikely. If there was a post, chances are it was someone playing silly-buggers