votes for prisoners?

[Ezteq]

just seen on the lunchtime news that due to intervention by the european court of human rights prisoners will now be allowed to vote, because it is against their freedom of speech or some thing if they are prevented from doing so.

now, i could be wrong here but isnt the whole idea of punishment to actually take away certain privalidges? and yes i know prison isnt a walk in the park but come on, if some one breaks the law they should expect to pay the consequences.

one more thing. i wish that europe would bugger off and keep its nose out of our business, i really wish the uk had never joined europe we're perfectly capable of screwing our country up all on our own we do not need additional help.

me---> <---europe

p.s dont take this the wrong way this isn't aimed at people from europe, unless they're the one's that made these laws... straight bananas etc

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well i find it a right that has to be respected.

Since criminals arn't lockered by the law in these matters, taking away their right to vote, would mean that somone who has been thrown in the jail for a week, or however long voting takes, would loose their right for some minor incident.

And anyway, everyone should beable to choose who f*cks their country up, a bit like you said.

One thing more, as you put it, europe and EU arn't the same thing.

 

[Libertine]

I wish Britain was taken out of the EU, all the bullshit laws really screw up our country (asylum seekers anyone?).

As for prisoners, they should be sleeping on slabs of rock with 2 sheets and 1 pillow eating wheat and drinking water, instead half of the people go out and commit crimes on fridays so they can be in their cell for soccer AM on sky sports 2 on a saturday morning

 

[Chronictank]

I wish Britain was taken out of the EU, all the bullshit laws really screw up our country (asylum seekers anyone?).

are you really that ignorant?
or is this some strange joke thats not funny

 

[Job]

It's an interesting road to go down, freedom itself is a basic human right, we decide to take it away as punishment when laws are broken, not letting prisoners vote is a UK law, it has been overidden..
Could you not argue that restricting freedom is against the law?

A future Europe could have criminals just 'thought badly of', for fear of violating their rights, just giving a mass murderer a bad look could land you in trouble, which of course would make you a criminal for breaking the human rights laws, you would be arrested and of course immediately released.

Does anyone think the European court of Human rights is legislating itself to the Guillotine?

 

[Libertine]

are you really that ignorant?
or is this some strange joke thats not funny

No it's not a joke, while i totally accept there are legitimate people who have suffered horendous acts (that i could never fathom) seek asylum here there are hundreds of thousands of others who come here simply because we have free benefits and free health treatment, those need to go, unless there is a huge civil war in France or Denmark there is no reason to have that many asylum seekers here.

There are many things i don't like about being in the EU, such as the trouble we have deporting Islamic preachers who sing and dance about 9/11 and the London bombings, slowly but surely Britain is losing its independance and part of that is down to some of the laws we agreed to when joining the EU.

On the topic of prisoners, none should get a vote, why should criminals and people who broke the law deserve a vote, it bewilders me, like the fact they get sky television in most of the prisons does.

 

[Thorwyn]

It´s a matter of definition. Is taking away certain privileges really a punishment? Or in other words: does the idea of "I might lose my right to vote if I rob the bank" really keep someone from commiting the crime? I doubt that. Instead, I got a different approach. People in prison are still part of our society. They may be locked away, the might have lost their freedom, but they are in fact still people, citizens of our society and I can´t see a reason why they shouldn´t be allowed to vote.

As for EU... you´re certainly correct that a lot of the laws made in Bruxelles are utter nonsense. However, a shared currency is the best thing that EVER happened to Europe. One can now travel through entire Europe and pay with the money that´s in your pockes instead of having to exchange money and pay dubious exchange rates etc.etc. EU has lots of cons, but I think we also need to take a look at the pros.

just my 2 (euro)Cents

 

[Cozak]

I would like to see Britain out of the EU also, having our national laws changed by some foreign court is just stupid, it has no effect on them what so ever if prisoners in our country can vote or not.

 

[Ezteq]

lots of really good views and i suspect that i was feeling especially pissy earlier because the man on tv who had fought for prisoners right to vote was inside on a manslaughter charge and HE was preaching about how unfair it was that he couldnt vote (i got really fumed and thought how unfair that his vistim didnt have a right to live).

The point about imprisioning some one thus totally denying them freedom being far worse than denying them the right to vote was scary as i can actually imagine that one day some boffin will actually implement a "no jail" rule.

And no, the thought that "oh hay if i do this i'll lose my voting rights" doesnt prevent anyone from commiting a crime, hell even in places where they have the death scentance they still have crime and that would be the ultimate deterrant for me.

I'm sure a fair ammount of the people in prison have probably never voted, but suddenly having something taken away makes you fiercely defend it.

Anyway i dont care if prisoners want to vote let them, they cant choose anyone worse than we usually choose anyway and this whole country has got so many silly laws as it is a few more will be just a drop in the ocean, im sick of it.

<stalks off huffily to be a hermit>

 

[Bahumat]

I say we just stamp on as many baby kittens as we can...i heard the Anti Stamping rule will be enforced soon, may as well make the most of it.

*see's kitten and runs off*

 

[tris-]

its bollocks shit. apparently people who kill other people (oh look, the killer took the right to vote off the deceased, coincidently) still have rights.

soon, going to prison will be illegal and everyone can do what the fuck they want.

 

[Yeke]

Let them vote IMO then they can be like the rest of us and ponder the clueless idiots we have to choose from and stay at home (in your cell) on voting day.

I agree some inmates dont deserve to lose certain rights, FE the guy who refused to pay a 7.5% increase on his council tax and instead paid them 2.5% (in rate with inflation) and was sent to prison, on the other hand there are obviosly people that dont imo deserve to be treated any better than a rabid dog.

Think that some of the idiots governing the EU should be concentraiting on real issues rather than stupid things as ez said the straight bannana thing.

<edit> Incedently the guy who made a stand against the council shortfall on his bill was £60~ and ended up being £690~ anyone else think thats just obsurd? (sp)

 

[Ezteq]

lol just had an evul thought,

prisoners want to vote so much well then we have to make sure they are fully informed and in posession of all the facts before they cast there vote...

send ALL the candidates round for a 5 hour seminar (each) on what they stand for, what the party's views are (on everything) and a biography on all the leading party members, tbh that would definately be up for review as being against their human rights.

no one should have to listen to a polititian.

 

[Ormorof]

No it's not a joke, while i totally accept there are legitimate people who have suffered horendous acts (that i could never fathom) seek asylum here there are hundreds of thousands of others who come here simply because we have free benefits and free health treatment.

hahaha, have you actually checked how many asylum seekers the UK accepts each year? the rest are locked up in a prison camp or sent to france or germany (or home )

try this webby for you: http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths.aspx

 

[Yeke]

hahaha, have you actually checked how many asylum seekers the UK accepts each year? the rest are locked up in a prison camp or sent to france or germany (or home )

try this webby for you: http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths.aspx

hahaha, do you know how many are here illegally? no, neither does our government.

Something else you may not have concidered is the time and cost of incarcerating and shipping them back home.

It is a massive problem.

 

[Libertine]

the rest are locked up in a prison camp or sent to france or germany (or home )

try this webby for you: http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths.aspx

Aye ive seen that website, can't remember which governemnt official confirmed on sky news that almost a quater of a million asylum seekers have gone missing in the UK in the last year

Guess one of the is the guy in our local kebab shop who couldn't speak english

 

[Thorwyn]

its bollocks shit. apparently people who kill other people (oh look, the killer took the right to vote off the deceased, coincidently) still have rights.

You are aware of the fact that not every prisoner is a killer are you? Or does the stigma of being in jail mean that the person in question is automatically set to the level of murderers? If so, then I´d be very careful how much stuff you´re downloading from the internet. It might make you a murderer-equivalent some sunny day.

Also, the good old "he took the victims right to vote" thing is both, archaical and polemical beyond belief. If that logic would apply, then we´d need to kill all killers, steal from all robbers and rape all rapists and if someone breaks another persons leg in a car accident, the other person would break the guys leg in return... eye for an eye etc., you know the drill. That´s not how our law and ethical system is working. We have to respond to crimes as a society, not as the individual that might be longing for revenge.
And before you come up with "but it would be better if it was that way", take a look at the US and see the impressive impact of a strict law system in combination with death penalty. The effect is zilch.

We´re - as a society - aren´t punishing people to take revenge for what they´ve done. Putting someone to jail is an attempt to a. temporary save ourselves from the criminal and his acts and b. give the criminal a chance to think about what he´s done and change his attitude and his position in the community. And we won´t achieve that last part if we proclaim him an individual that´s no longer part of this society. Because if that happens, he won´t have any reason or motivation to come back.

I`m always amazed how many tough conservative POV´s are showing up each time we´re discussing stuff like that. It appears to me that some people do´nt give a damn about what the person in question has actually done and under what circumstances and with what background. It matters, trust me. It´s not a digital thing like in a computer game... crime commited = guilty, no crime commited = not guilty. Get me right here, I`m in no way trying to defend murder or crime in general. I´m merely trying to say that making generalizations and enforcing the strict-law-policy won´t change anything.

 

[Yeke]

Guess one of the is the guy in our local kebab shop who couldn't speak english

Reminds me of when I went to live in rochdale for a few months, at the time my arm was in plaster and so I had to sign on sick :/

on entering the jobcentre I was amazed to see the ammount of staff that were there soley for the purpose of translating between "job seeker" and advisor and the plethora of leaflets that were translated to various languages, now what puzzles me is if you can not speek the native language HTF are you going to stand any chance of finding employment and so surly that breaks the agreement you make when you sign as a jobseeker!?!?!

Anyway thread hijacked and way off topic so ill stop

 

[Darksword]

gave up reading after 3rd post, ignorance etc.

Go learn then come back, cant even be arsed to argue on this topic, yes prisoners should be given the vote dont be such a conservative fuck, go learn more about europe before making a pointless post such as "asylum seekers".

no i dont fully agree with europe but that doesnt mean i want us to leave it, atleast not just yet, now stfu and learnzor yourselfs

 

[Thadius]

Prisioners shouldnt be allowed to vite

The idea of prison is to take away certain privilages and rights that humans get(like the ability to walk free )

They break the law, suffer the consequences

Maybe then, crime will go down when the government gets a kick up the arse and says no

 

[Ormorof]

Prisioners shouldnt be allowed to vite

The idea of prison is to take away certain privilages and rights that humans get(like the ability to walk free )

They break the law, suffer the consequences

Maybe then, crime will go down when the government gets a kick up the arse and says no

the idea of prison is to stop the person re-commiting crimes, not stopping them from being a citizen

Despite its barbaric origins in the medieval dungeon and torture chamber, since the late 18th century prisons have combined elements of punishment with elements of rehabilitation. As the French philosopher Michel Foucault put it, punishment shifted over time from the disciplining of the body to the disciplining of the "soul".

The rehabilitation of offenders is a key feature of the modern UK criminal justice system, and work to rehabilitate prisoners goes on, in varying degrees, in every prison.

While in the past, rehabilitation may have been directed at 'reforming the character' of prisoners, its focus is now on preventing reoffending.

http://www.politics.co.uk/issues/prison-rehabilitation-$2111783.htm

 

[tris-]

yes ok give ian huntley the right to vote, he really does deserve to keep this part of being a citizen.

really, dont u think it depends how serious the crime is?

 

[Thadius]

yes ok give ian huntley the right to vote, he really does deserve to keep this part of being a citizen.

really, dont u think it depends how serious the crime is?

Nope

You commit a crime and get put in prison, thats you out of the voting system till you return to society, regardless if they killed some or if they just didnt pay there council tax

 

[tris-]

thadius, i dont thinjk they should get any voting rights. im refering to the people who think all prisoners should have this right.

if they really think this then shouldnt it depend on how severe the crime is.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I would want to see the punishment system to change into a system where not only the time served is a punishment, but the level of lost rights would apply.

Then we would have a bit more "right" judging system.

 

[Ezteq]

Oooook,

once again its really sad to see it but it keeps happening, people getting all self ritious and flaming others just because (how-dare-they!!) they have a different opionion than them, and more often than not the ones doing all this flaming are the ones who claim to be libral minded, warriors for fairness and equal opportunities, they chuck around words like "ignorance" and "racist!!!!!" when really what they are doing/how they are reacting is worse.

It's all very well being an advocate of tolerance but you have to actually tolerate other peoples point's of view to be so (funny that eh?) and admit that they may actually have a good point, just because its different from yours doesn't mean it's wrong, you don't have to agree with them but if you slap them down and tell them to shut up just for expressing themselves, start in with the name calling and the holier than thou routine then i'm sorry but in actual fact your the bad guy here.

I'm only speaking for myself here, but i come on these boards to hear different points of view, if everyone thought like me then why bother?
I'm not saying I agree with these different points of view but they are interesting and give me something to think over and discuss, think how damn dull this place would be if all posts were like "hay chocolate's great: yep, yeah, yes, aye, uh huh" think of the saying variety's the spice of life, spice doesn't agree with everyone but quite a few of us out here prefer it to the bland boring stuff of conformity just for the sake of it.


/sick of good discussions being ruined by biggots.


p.s Not aimed at anyone for just disagreeing with someone, on the whole an enjoyable and informed thread.

 

[Thorwyn]

hm... except for some occasional posts, I think this discussion has been quite moderate and objective so far, not?

 

[Ezteq]

tbh one post like that is one too many imo, sick of seeing it had to vent rage before i split out of my pyjamas and turned green (really would clash with my hair)

 

[old.Tohtori]

/sick of good discussions being ruined by biggots.

I don't really agree with your view's on biggots as they generalise the biggots views on matters. Biggots bring the needed "umf!" into the discussion and give the discussioneers(it's a word!!) a chance to feel good for destrroying their, sometimes ridicilous points of view.

*nods*

 

[Ezteq]

I getcha, so like if us discussioneers don't have the "umf!!" factor in a thread our lives become dull and meaningless and we no longer have the will to get up and fight the good fight?

bit like when you were a kid, making sure you had at least one smelly, naughty friend and getting them over your house all the time so your folks realised how lucky they were?

Hmm cunning