Politics US Debt woes and the problems for the rest of us

[Ormorof]

so i thought this deserved its own thread:

Understanding the US debt crisis!

A visualization of US debt (credit card bill) stacked in 100 dollar bills

are we all screwed if they cant make a deal by tuesday?

the idea of the US defaulting frightens me

 

[cHodAX]

It could spark another collapse yes, the markets are wobbly anyway and if a nation that owes literally half of the worlds debt starts missing payments it is bound to prolong this depressed period for the world economy.

 

[Helme]

Nothing is going to happen happen to the economy, it's all theatrics. What they can't agree on currently is how much they're going to screw over the American people, but come whatever date the ceiling is supposed to be reached by they'll have a plan out and it's going to be sold as a bipartisan compromise for a better future while in reality it's a huge fuck the poor.

 

[Ctuchik]

Visualizations of this kind is such a bad way of doing it....

The best defense of the infographic is: Well, $14 trillion is a gigantic number that’s hard to wrap your head around, and that’s true, but in the end, this kind of visualization just makes us more agog at the size, rather than putting them in meaningful context.

Debt Visualization: Danger or Insight? | VizWorld.com

 

[dysfunction]

I really cant see that the US will default on their debts.

 

[Ormorof]

true, just read that they will have tax revenue to play with which should cover all of the interest repayments, but that will leave very little for staff pay, hospital bills, military expenses etc

 

[old.Tohtori]

To me personally? F*ck all really

 

[Scouse]

Yay capitalism, eh?

 

[Helme]

I almost wish something would happen so the Americans would realise this piece of shit system is utterly broken and wake the fuck up and do something about it. But looking at the average voter in the US they'll probably blame 'liberals' or 'socialists' rather than the fucktards who've run the economy into the shitter for the last 30 years in an effort to enrich their mates and nothing will change, except that now they'll be without social security or health care.

But at least they have their guns!

 

[Tom]

Yay capitalism, eh?

I think it's more a case of "yay lets promise the electorate a load of free stuff, that way we'll be voted into office" while conveniently forgetting to mention that private businesses pay for all the free stuff.

When those private businesses fail, nobody gets paid.

 

[Helme]

Except that the programs they're talking about gutting pays for themselves, which is a bit inconvenient when you're a bank or insurance giant and you want to take over this part of the government for profit, so you have to make it fail with legislation or refusal to regulate something - like for example, putting a price cap on drugs like every single other western country has done so the pharmaceutical companies can't rape customers with fantasy prices. But that would be governments interfering in a free market, and we can't have that(unless the banks are failing - then interfere away with $13 trillion and then bitch about how Medicare will be running a $1 trillion deficit in 30 years if revenue remains stagnant).

All the while talking about this nobody even mentions the obvious answer to their deficit problem, that is to say increasing revenue with taxes. But this is impossible because the public(and probably some politicians) have swallowed the myth that tax breaks creates jobs. Except there's no evidence of this, in fact looking back there's plenty of evidence that points in the other direction. If instead they had spent the money they lost from lowering taxes on for example repairing their crumbling infrastructure they would have seen real increases in employment - and probably a real 'recovery' from the recession, since people could afford to consume again. Not to mention you know, having working roads and bridges. But again, the right-wing has convinced people that the government doesn't actually create jobs - only small business owners and corporations does that, ignoring that the Federal government is the biggest employer in the country. I guess in this fantasy cops buy their iPhones with monopoly money I dunno.

edit: Another obvious 'fix' to this problem they're having is to STOP GETTING INVOLVED IN FOREIGN WARS. You really don't have to spend as much money on "defense" as the other top 10 countries combined. It's absurd, and the public doesn't gain anything meaningful out of it that couldn't be gotten cheaper with university research funding.

 

[fettoken]

The US makes us believe we need them sooooooo much. But really, it is like year 2000. We all believed that everything would collaps, but nothing happend. Same but different, but same.

And as some guy on this forum said "next thread plz"

I think it was Bahumat or Sparx.. hmm

 

[Scouse]

When those private businesses fail, nobody gets paid.

Alternatively, when those private businesses specatularly succeed then the boss and shareholders get paid, everyone else gets pittance slave wages and are told they're actually well-off, but lack the education to understand they're actually being raped, sans lube

 

[cHodAX]

The US makes us believe we need them sooooooo much. But really, it is like year 2000. We all believed that everything would collaps, but nothing happend. Same but different, but same.

And as some guy on this forum said "next thread plz"

I think it was Bahumat or Sparx.. hmm

You why we need them? Half of the worlds debt is owed by them, if they can't pay then we are all fucked.

 

[cHodAX]

Is it just me or is this guys named pronounced as Boner?

John Boehner Yanks Debt Ceiling Bill, House Vote Postponed

 

[Ctuchik]

I really cant see that the US will default on their debts.

Well, Minnesota has more or less closed down shop already with only minimal staffing on stuff that isn't absolutely important like in hospitals and police stations. Most everything else is either closed down or is insanely understaffed more or less going on maintenance mode...

Granted it's more a state financial issue rather then a federal one, but things "over there" might actually be slightly worse then what is shown.

And Toht, explain how this isn't going to affect you if USA defaults next tuesday.

I can guarantee you that it will, probably a lot more then the last crisis we had.

Here's a nice speculation of what the possibilities are if USA defaults....

What will happen if we default on August 2nd? | mm

Pay special attention to the point where he says that the dollar is the worlds reserve currency. So if the dollar go bad, so does that reserve, and then the snowball starts rolling, and you are gonna be in it with the rest of us...

It will be a disaster of epic proportions, and it should by all rights scare the living daylight out of you...

 

[old.Tohtori]

And Toht, explain how this isn't going to affect you if USA defaults next tuesday.

I can guarantee you that it will, probably a lot more then the last crisis we had.

In any meaningful manner? Besides a cent there on cheese price, or a buck there in beer? Not really.

I'm not an "owner", no cars or houses, no hinderedence of any sort, no stocks, bonds etc. It just won't

Tell me how it will.

 

[Raven]

I would imagine you buy things from shops though? You require money, yes?

Edit, more people that can't afford a mortgage means more people renting, more people renting means rent goes up. Basic supply and demand.

Nobody is free from global recessions except truly self sufficient people.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I would imagine you buy things from shops though? You require money, yes?

Edit, more people that can't afford a mortgage means more people renting, more people renting means rent goes up. Basic supply and demand.

Nobody is free from global recessions except truly self sufficient people.

Changes to shop prices are miniscule on day to day basis, i don't particulary count pennies. Mortgage thing isn't such an issue in Finland, more people rent here then for example the style in the UK. Even so, rent going up is usually counted in single digit euros, again, non-issue personally.

As i said in the very first post, -personally- it's no problem and it effects, as in has any impact that i give a toss about, none.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think a comparison to patches in MMOs explain it well. Usually when there's big changes and all the internet warriors start screaming bloody murder, i live with it with no personal trauma.

Same goes to most changes in political/financial things in the world. Sure there might be an increase here and there, but the effect just isn't there.

But as said, personal things are personal, i can see how this would f*ck up people and how some might be pooping the tweed.

 

[Ormorof]

government going bust will affect finland more than other countries though, think no bus, train, hospital, road works, police, fire service, nothing run by the government will be paid for if they have no money, wages will crash, business will stop hiring, and likely start firing in a desperate attempt to increase cash flow (as no banks will lend any money as they are likely doing the same thing)

claiming that it will only affect one or two cents on foodstuffs is naive in the extreme, if the US starts defaulting on debt most of the rest of the world will follow

from what i gather you are freelancing, well if banks cant lend money to business, they cant hire you, so you may try and get some unemployment cash, but wait, the government has no money so cant pay it, so you look at your savings, oh wait, they have been swallowed by the bank because they need to pay their own debts and cant borrow money to cover it... leaving you with no job, no money, and if you cant pay your rent...

 

[old.Tohtori]

That's on an assumption that the US going bust will mean all the worlds countries go bust too. Bit of an overkill i feel. I'll talk about how doom is coming when there's trouble here, otherwise the US does not effect me that much.

Sure, if Finland went bust it would be troublesome(extent of it ofcourse speculation), but as far as i know this isn't a thread about all the worlds countries running out of money at the same time.

Even in that case, not a big bother really, there's always solutions and if you don't stress about too much stuff, it's a lot easier

In short; it's not naive, it's just not stressing about it.

 

[Ormorof]

ah but thats pretty much what will happen if the US defaults, its not going to happen (as they have tax money to cover it, but then have little money for everything else), but it is frightening that our economic fate is in the hands of a bunch of tools who only seem to care about scoring political points against their opponents rather than sorting out the mess they have created

 

[old.Tohtori]

ah but thats pretty much what will happen if the US defaults, its not going to happen (as they have tax money to cover it, but then have little money for everything else), but it is frightening that our economic fate is in the hands of a bunch of tools who only seem to care about scoring political points against their opponents rather than sorting out the mess they have created

Well i don't know really, i think people underestimate their countries ability to cope with such events. Especially here in nordic places, the systems are rather nicely done. Well, you've seen our sh*t compared to the UK

Anyhoo, shouldn't bother with too much speculation, just going to stress yourself out and cause more problems to things that actually matter at the moment.

 

[Ctuchik]

In short; it's not naive, it's just not stressing about it.

That's fine, but claiming that it will do fuck all for you personally IS naive.

 

[old.Tohtori]

That's fine, but claiming that it will do fuck all for you personally IS naive.

Perhaps a wrong way of putting it, by "f*ck all really" was meant as a "won't bother me".

Actually it will do f*ck all to me, but my conditions may change, which in effect mean f*ck all to me

 

[Helme]

Richard Wolff: Debt Showdown is "Political Theater" Burdening Society's Most Vulnerable

A good summary of the situation. Richard Wolff doing some fairly cutting(heh) commentary.

 

[Tom]

But again, the right-wing has convinced people that the government doesn't actually create jobs - only small business owners and corporations does that, ignoring that the Federal government is the biggest employer in the country. I guess in this fantasy cops buy their iPhones with monopoly money I dunno.

Jesus, spoken like a true Swede. You do understand precisely where wealth is created, don't you?

Tip - it doesn't come from the government, or the public sector. And nor does it come from oil, unless you're lucky in that regard, like....Sweden?

 

[Helme]

I see wealth coming from labour, be it private or public. But then again I'm a dirty leftist, and obviously I can't have any grasp on reality because I'm from socialist Sweden. Never mind that what saved the US the last time from total economic disaster was huge government work programs that got the economy rolling again. But since this doesn't seem to count... I guess the magical free market fairy did it.

 

[Tom]

Wealth from labour? I think you've been looking at too many Soviet propaganda posters.