Upcoming sov changes

[LordjOX]

EVE Online | EVE Insider | Dev Blog

I really like it. Also very curious of what home improvements will involve.

Building stargates? Discovering new belts? Discovering new rare moons? Hiring NPC agents to stations?

 

[Ctuchik]

so basically if someone wants to be left alone in a system they just stop paying the bills for the stargate so ppl wont have an exit point?

then u'd need a titan to bridge.... or they can jump in but not out again... thats equally retarded...

picture having a station in a system where u arent paying the stargate bills so the gates shut down and having your headquarter there with all the facilities to build ships in and no way to get there other then to clone jump or bridge. pretty damn hard to make a organized attack on it....

 

[`mongoose]

nope.

If they don't pay the upkeep they instantly lose sov. This means they lose access to any infrastructure or developments that they've invested in.

I think it's primarily to stop the huge blocks of space that everyone agrees is bad for the game. Certain alliances have always been able to hold onto huge swaths of space making massive amounts of isk for relatively little risk and cost.

It also stops the whole "plonk an offline small tower on every moon and anchor it to stop people pos spamming" tactic which is also popular.

I hope it sees a reduction if not end to jumpbridges as although they're very useful they make it far too easy to travel from region to region without hitting any gates and therefore avoiding fights alltogether.

I have my own concerns if I'm being honest. I can see this swinging the pendulum even further towards alliances who don't want to fight and just want to turtle behind pos shields/ in stations until you've gone and rat unmolested but I'm prepared to wait and see.


M

 

[Ctuchik]

pretty sure Goons and those other mega alliances with massive sov isnt liking this all to much from a economical point they will lose some insane monthly income here if they try to keep everything they got

me likey.

 

[`mongoose]

pretty sure Goons and those other mega alliances with massive sov isnt liking this all to much from a economical point they will lose some insane monthly income here if they try to keep everything they got

me likey.

It's bad for all power blocs and good for smaller gangs as it stands. It has got to get through testing yet however and I still can't see much real information about it.

I think just about every level headed person in every big alliance knows that the amount of income that people can secure for themselves with little to know effort just from holding space is obscene and needs to be stopped. I think most of them are trying desperately to maximise their income before this comes out and they have to work for their moon gold.

It will take more information before real emotears start.

M

 

[LordjOX]

PL owns all the moon gold anyways

 

[Ctuchik]

think BoB might make a comeback once this gets implemented or did they die out? havent read SHC anything for a few months so i'm out of the loop and cba to read up

 

[irish]

nice too see an eve-o forum not spammed too death with retards like the eve-o mian boards!


however i dont see how they are going to make this new system stick.

i live in deep 0.0....the back ass of branch, but i pvp in fade,CR,pure blind.

tell me how noob corps are ever gona get out there without being slaughter'd - deep branch space ? secondly how are they gona change these power blocks from fragmenting and becoming small alliances, keeping the bills cheap for fueling these jb's? thirdly how the feck are noob alliance with NO cap fleets gona up root alliances like the NC ?

i think ccp havent got the hats on for this one. just a bunch of designers listening to the low sec and empire fanboys.

p.s sorry if i offend the fan boys from empire

 

[Ctuchik]

noone has claimed that the "noob corps" wont be slaughtered if they go to 0.0.

that they will is pretty much a given unless they have friends in big alliances thats close enough to help if needed.

what these changes are meant to do is to prevent Goons, Razor, AAA etc etc etc from holding immense amount of space without actually using it other then for cash farms.

and probably also to try and sort out the ever increasing numbers on titans and maybe even those "fun" cap only fight thats been happening lately "just because they can do it".

even losing a titan doesent seem to be that big of a deal anymore if its owned by a large alliance like Goons or AAA.

and noob corps and/or alliances dont HAVE to root out the big alliances, the cost of holding all that space they have now will do it for them.

it will probably have little effect at the start as said alliances probably have some massive funds to pay upkeep from. but after a few months i'm pretty sure they will realize that if they want to keep having a fighting force in an eventual war they will have to ditch most of their current space in order to be able to replace lost caps.

 

[irish]

to give you a ball park figure... PL pull allmost 7 trillion isk per month from high ends.


so a titan is nothing. those who take risks in 0.0 deserve it. people forget that alliance take years to get into a position to have 3 or 10 titans

 

[Ctuchik]

risks? what risks?

how many corps and alliances does PL curently have a NAP or +10 with?

probably enough to make sure that very very little you do would actually be a risk. same with most of the other alliances.

and those lists have a stunning ability to grow fucking big whenever theres a decent war going on.

whenever theres actual risks going on in EvE most alliances go crying for help because they dont WANT to risk losing to much of what they got if they can help it.

just look at Goons for the perfect example when they took over BoB's space. their blue list at that time were probably one of the longest in EvE's history.

why? because they didn't want to risk anything. they also wanted good fights sure, but they sure as hell didnt want to risk losing.

there is probably very very few alliances in EvE that actually don't have a blue list or a list of corps/alliances that help when they need it.

when the alliances drop the blue lists and NAP's when theres a war you will be correct. but untill then....

 

[irish]

well citing goons as an example is pretty good. goons couldnt have taken down bob without the nc. as for these sov changes i think it will be a good half a year before you really notice any difference for large alliance. there is stockpiles of isk there that boggle the mind.


however come to ec- so we can fight

 

[LordjOX]

to give you a ball park figure... PL pull allmost 7 trillion isk per month from high ends.


so a titan is nothing. those who take risks in 0.0 deserve it. people forget that alliance take years to get into a position to have 3 or 10 titans

Not 7 trillion but .7 trillion. There's not that many dyspro moons in the game tbh

 

[irish]

Not 7 trillion but .7 trillion. There's not that many dyspro moons in the game tbh

true my bad. 700billion a month then. however i hope they remove all r64's form low sec space then. if this expansion is applied then it wont affect pl that much as they just spam the low sec r64's.

 

[Ctuchik]

true my bad. 700billion a month then. however i hope they remove all r64's form low sec space then. if this expansion is applied then it wont affect pl that much as they just spam the low sec r64's.

so will every other alliances tho.

that might end up being really interesting tho.. big alliance wars in 0.4's

i'd pity the pirates that have those systems as homebase if that ever happen *giggle*

 

[`mongoose]

Lo All

If they remove r64 moons from 0.0 they'll remove them from everywhere. In fact I suspect moon mining might change beyond recognition entirely.

I hope that they do btw, even though -a- acquired more r64's over the last few days (god shooting towers with bs is boring, and the one night I can't make the op we get a fight !!111 argh!), the amount of isk that an alliance or corp can secure with little to no risk is phenomenal. I think CCP never intended for there to be the number of Titans in game that there are or for Cap fleets to be thrown away on "lol" fights between two entities. The two fights that rzr/pl had with each other and then with -a-/atlas are proof of the pudding tbh.

After both fights PL/RzR already had their replacements to hands and within 3 days so did we. The level of resource available to large entrenched alliances dictates massive numbers as a means of removing them from their space.

At present most of 0.0 is dominated by a few huge power blocks. It would be good to see the scope of those power blocs reduced and fewer blues for everyone, we need more conflict accross 0.0 rather than 2 or 3 large polarised fights between massive blocks and lists of blues. Nobody enjoys fights where it takes 10 minutes to load grid and your ship is already dead

Btw - Irish is Zero Effect still in UKC with Eric Hunt?

If so say hi to em from me (dacovale). I started in UK C back in the day when they were in Lotka Volterra.

M

 

[svartalf]

Give me some leaway here, I'm lost in your eve-specific chatter. I'd like to ask a question, though. I think, Mongoose, you were saying that the sov changes are bad for big corps and that they will encourage turtling? I see that as a reasonable stance really, considering that a big powerful corp seems to be able to easily stroll through sectors wiping out all in their path otherwise, or does it not work like that? I'm thinking about someone who might be trying, for example, to perhaps begin a small alliance and comes up against titan-wielding megacorps. Surely allowing them to turtle to some extent is a good thing?

 

[LordjOX]

Yeah- 0.0 needs more conflict, even with so many alliances most of it is blue to eachother. Impossible for smaller alliances to survive without one of those generic blocs supporting them.

Supercapital changes are about fucking time aswell. No more insta un-fun button for titan

 

[`mongoose]

Give me some leaway here, I'm lost in your eve-specific chatter. I'd like to ask a question, though. I think, Mongoose, you were saying that the sov changes are bad for big corps and that they will encourage turtling? I see that as a reasonable stance really, considering that a big powerful corp seems to be able to easily stroll through sectors wiping out all in their path otherwise, or does it not work like that? I'm thinking about someone who might be trying, for example, to perhaps begin a small alliance and comes up against titan-wielding megacorps. Surely allowing them to turtle to some extent is a good thing?

Right now it is impossible for a small alliance to take and hold space without the express support of a power bloc. I know this from bitter experience

The problem atm with large alliance blocs is that right now titans aren't really allowing them to do this. The titan is predominantly a defensive or logistical tool (which can assist in lol blitzkreig! attacks) but usually is kept in "safe" systems to assist in the defence of assets against an attack.

As it stands doomsday weapons are a very real defence against an opponent who decides to just swamp your system with 600 odd pilots. 2/3 titans on jump in and that tactic fails hard (see bob's max campagin vs MM & RZR where multiple fleets died on jumpin to waiting titans)

With the titan nerf there will be nothing stopping a side just decided to brute force their way to a win. I'm not sure that's a good thing for the long term interests of the game if I am being honest.

As it stands small entities can base out of 0.0 easily enough (npc space, blue stations etc) but they have no real chance of defending their space. -A- are in the process of evicting Minor Threat from their space and MT have no chance whatsoever. It's not about skill, or ship fittings or defences. -A- and allies can drop 2-500 pilots into a system on 24 hours notice without even breaking sweat and MT without their allies (goons us tz, Pl reset, RZR going back north) muster about 50 people tops. The best pvpers in the world have no chance of fighting off 200 odd pilots with 50, let alone 500.

We'll see what happens. I also think the role of the stealth bomber is in for a good hard nerfing soon too. Stealth bombers could be the new anti blob weapon and with the lowered requirements to fit a bomb launcher proposed for the new patch we might see a whole new form of defending.

M

 

[LordjOX]

Titan nerf, sure. Two titans can't instapop unlimited amounts of sub-capitals on grid no more. But now they get like 500% more hp around the board and will actually take quite the pounding to encourage people frontlining them. Besides, they can (last I heard) instapop any sub-supercapital ship every 3-5 mins and still dish out insane amounts of damage on single capitals.

Think we have come full circle with people frontlining MS with carriers to rep

When I think about it, the titan fit BNC lost recently would be more favoured than the t2 align, DDD and gtfo fits you see on titans nowdays

 

[`mongoose]

Titan nerf, sure. Two titans can't instapop unlimited amounts of sub-capitals on grid no more. But now they get like 500% more hp around the board and will actually take quite the pounding to encourage people frontlining them. Besides, they can (last I heard) instapop any sub-supercapital ship every 3-5 mins and still dish out insane amounts of damage on single capitals.

Think we have come full circle with people frontlining MS with carriers to rep

When I think about it, the titan fit BNC lost recently would be more favoured than the t2 align, DDD and gtfo fits you see on titans nowdays

our testing shows that atm the new titan dd on sisi insta pops a dread.

M

 

[svartalf]

Don't the new sov rules discourage alliances from going on huge land grabs? I suppose this is the only reason a massive corp *wouldn't* go looking to batter everybody it possibly could.

I'm still confused.

If everything is geared towards cash generation, then surely there are going to be specific areas which are more desirable than others, and thus specific hotspots which [whoever is the biggest/baddest alliance at the moment] would take over. Wouldn't this make the rich even richer (such is the nature of capitalism, yesno)?

 

[LordjOX]

Thing is you can invest in space to get more ISK from it.

And the more space you hold, the more it will cost in upkeep (to pay for stargates, stations etc - people do actually live and work in them)

 

[Ctuchik]

next they just need to implement random strikes / local terrorist groups on those stations

or maybe hire NPC's to disable a key component in a station for x hours or untill repaired (for an absolute insane amount of ISK tho).

 

[`mongoose]

Don't the new sov rules discourage alliances from going on huge land grabs? I suppose this is the only reason a massive corp *wouldn't* go looking to batter everybody it possibly could.

You're thinking too small

For example. I am now in -a- and the other night I saw the following 'blues' in action.
-a- (ourselves)
Atlas
Tri
Init
CoW
StainWagon
Coven
U'K

That's the alliances who work with us on a regular basis vs Goon & co when they're active. As a result it's effectively a huge chunk of space which is friendly but the relative cost of controlling that space is low due to the number of blue alliances and pets (renters)

Most alliances will hold space specifically to attract renter corps who will then pay as much as 1 or 2 billion a month to use your space for their mining/ratting/pvp in 0.0. This income will be supplemented by income from r64 and r32 moons. 1 r64 moon is worth approx 8billion a month at current market prices for promethium / dysprosium. I think r32 moons net around 1billion a month (Moon goo is not something that interests me so I'm unsure on exact profits).

I'm still confused.

If everything is geared towards cash generation, then surely there are going to be specific areas which are more desirable than others, and thus specific hotspots which [whoever is the biggest/baddest alliance at the moment] would take over. Wouldn't this make the rich even richer (such is the nature of capitalism, yesno)?

That is what has happened so far and what is what probably will happen in the very near future.

PL's space is very rich and they have alot of r64moons. RzR/MM space isn't massively lucrative but they have alot of it and have lots and lots of pets.

-A- & Atlas space is good as far as I know but I'm not privy to the assets available in this area and I've not bothered going moon miner hunting. I think goon space (the ex bob space) is pretty strong too.

the new expansion will totally change this we suspect so everyone is trying to drive up moon goo prices and control as many r64moons as possibly before December.

There will be a very short period post expansion whilst the industrial types in every alliance decide what needs to be sorted first and then again the isk race and war will start.

Whilst I think many alliances might decide to contract the area of space that they "hold" and develop the effect on 0.0 will probably be negligable at first as the power blocks will still remain and therefore the important constellations & systems within in each region will be kept solidly locked down.

D

 

[LordjOX]

I wonder what the new qualifications for good systems will be in the next expansion. Right now it is probably moons, plexes, asteroids and rats in that order. If any space can be developed until a certain ceiling, one will eventually come to a situation where all space is equally desirable.

It's probably a good thing if you look at the map and see 90% of empty 0.0. And hopefully will spark more conflicts. Look at providence, crap region right now. Pretty bad asteriods, rats and no highend moons. Really no point in trying to take and hold. But if things drastically change the next expansion, it might be more desirable as providence is the most developed 0.0 region outpost wise on tranquility.

Same goes for powerful alliances like PL that don't hold much space, but have lots of pets and ISK reserves I think.

Although I guess it's kinda hard to predict the future since we don't know the exact mechanics of sov, improvements and upkeep.

 

[Ctuchik]

and another thing that i thought about. does anyone actually know how much the stargate upkeep will be? as all i've read about it is that it will be more expensive per stargate the more systems you hold.

so in theory, stacking up trillions of ISK just to support all the stargates the big alliances currently hold wont be anywhere near as effective as they might think.

having a lone stargate might theoretically end up costing 2 billion a month, but if you hold 10 stargates, each one might end up costing 20 billion a month. and Goons/PL/AAA etc etc hold how many systems currently?

all those trillions of ISK all the big blobs have farmed up will go REALLY fast if thats the case (and i hope to god thats how CCP have planned it).

so if all those alliances try to hold on to the space they currently have they might end up having to pay many many trillion ISK a month just to upkeep the stargates... and add a war ontop of that and any alliance will fail relatively fast.

 

[`mongoose]

and another thing that i thought about. does anyone actually know how much the stargate upkeep will be? as all i've read about it is that it will be more expensive per stargate the more systems you hold.

so in theory, stacking up trillions of ISK just to support all the stargates the big alliances currently hold wont be anywhere near as effective as they might think.

having a lone stargate might theoretically end up costing 2 billion a month, but if you hold 10 stargates, each one might end up costing 20 billion a month. and Goons/PL/AAA etc etc hold how many systems currently?

all those trillions of ISK all the big blobs have farmed up will go REALLY fast if thats the case (and i hope to god thats how CCP have planned it).

so if all those alliances try to hold on to the space they currently have they might end up having to pay many many trillion ISK a month just to upkeep the stargates... and add a war ontop of that and any alliance will fail relatively fast.

Yeah I suspect alot of "filler" systems will get unclaimed pretty quickly. Whether that makes them available for use by small entities is more debatable however.

I can see alliances placing emphasis on dead end systems with only one jumpgate as entry for jump poses etc as it's so much cheaper.

This will definitely make holding space in the far south which is 40 odd jumps away from empire less attractive as the running costs of maintaing the space you control and the route to it will make it more expensive than say Querious or Delve etc.

D

 

[LordjOX]

This will definitely make holding space in the far south which is 40 odd jumps away from empire less attractive as the running costs of maintaing the space you control and the route to it will make it more expensive than say Querious or Delve etc.

D

But still will be a home for many, since larger alliances won't bother (except for pew pew) because the moon gold isn't precious anymore.

 

[Ctuchik]

heres another thing.... how many alliances will make alt corps/alliances for the express purpose of cutting down the cost on said stargates? its a big posibility that might happen.

tons and tons of alt corps that only serves as stargate upholders to cheat the system.

hopefully CCP will do something about that before the patch go live.