TUESDAY 25th of July ---> ARTIFACT RAID <--- starting at 19.30 CET in PRYDWEN

[Aberrathien]

Well as my raid is only a FG worth of ppl, this masszerg raid wont have the greatest effect on my raid (I hope), that will prolly only happen if i start looking for replacements and find they all are on the arti raid. But in the end it can mean that my raid will fail bcos there aint enof ppl around to replace no-goers and such, and that is HIGHLY annoying when I´ve had this raid posted for about a week now.

My raid has been posted for a week now, so ppl has had a LOT of time to find other dates for their raids, but i do understand that ppl are busy and such.

If one has to book a raid when another is booked, mebbe one should only make a raid that´ll need a minimum of peeps instead of mass zerg raids like this one prolly will be...

So to sum it up for me, highly annoying and i hope there will be less crossraiding that will require masszergs in the future...

 

[vavires]

This raid is posted based on what 2groups tried to do yesterday, if ppl wanne join on this raid or not is fully there choice, i posted this so other ppl not doing anything who were intrested could join up as well. RvR sucks as hell, ppl asked me yesterday so here it is. If ppl need 4.2 5.9 5.10 they will show up.

 

[vavires]

Thats because it wasnt here then Trollum:

22nd July 2006, 06:55 PM ML4.2 and 5.9-5.10 25th of July @ 19:00CET Pryd

24th July 2006, 11:22 PM TUESDAY 25th of July ---> ARTIFACT RAID <--- starting at 19.30 CET in PRYDWEN

So Trollum's post was made over 2 days before Vav's post.




Normally I wouldn't get involved with posts like this as quite frankly im not too bothered but hypocrisy kinda bugs me.




So vav, you acknowledge that people post raids and you try and work around them. You also acknowledge that its a shame when people "Xraid".

You then post your raid at the same time as Aberrathiens Darkspire raid AND Trollums ML raid so don't do it yourself and not expect criticism unless ofc you dont mind being a hypocrite.

If i could i would have.

 

[Craparoni]

cross raiding is ok then, the one that has the most interesting raid will draw all the pps.

ok trollum, u got 30 mins, make the best of it

 

[atos]

Well, all I may suggest is that the people who need 4.2 will attend to it even if that means they will also miss one of their arties. Imo, arti encoutners are far easier to accomplish.

And I might add that I did try to do ml4-5 5 or 6 times last week. And when I finaly put up something that is a few days before the actual raid it (might not) end up ruined cause none decided to come.

 

[illu]

Stop this argueing amongst ourselves! Albs are the enemy, not fellow realm mates :>
Yes, in an ideal world it would be great to have all raids at individual times, but this is a good thing for Midgard, having too many raids!
People have choices and there will be more raids in the future so kudos to everyone for arranging raids, and keep up the good work :>

Now I just need to get a small group of people to kill 1.4 Barrier so I'm ready for the weekend ML1-3 raid :>

Oli - Illu

 

[vavires]

Stop this argueing amongst ourselves! Albs are the enemy, not fellow realm mates :>
Yes, in an ideal world it would be great to have all raids at individual times, but this is a good thing for Midgard, having too many raids!
People have choices and there will be more raids in the future so kudos to everyone for arranging raids, and keep up the good work :>

Now I just need to get a small group of people to kill 1.4 Barrier so I'm ready for the weekend ML1-3 raid :>

Oli - Illu

i can solo that for ya, just call me in game.

 

[Aberrathien]

This raid is posted based on what 2groups tried to do yesterday, if ppl wanne join on this raid or not is fully there choice, i posted this so other ppl not doing anything who were intrested could join up as well. RvR sucks as hell, ppl asked me yesterday so here it is. If ppl need 4.2 5.9 5.10 they will show up.

So u only think 2fg worth of ppl are gonna join??? Crap ass explanation m8! Evry other mass arti raid has been a masszerg raid...

This raid might mean that my raid are gonna fail and this is the only thing u have to say to that?

Its not ok for others to cross raid on ur raids but when u do it its ok?

 

[atos]

Well 4.2 failed. Not sure if it was due to this. But a new date is set.

 

[charmangle]

Well...

Well 4.2 failed. Not sure if it was due to this. But a new date is set.

Well Trollum, I really do think you need to offer more to people to get this done. You need to run an entire Ml4 raid for more people to join it. There are only about 2 fgs that ONLY need 4.2 and its hard to get others to come do it when they wount get the rest of the steps.

But well get it done eventually ofc mate!

Its ofc too bad that the relic raid had to be at the same time, but if you two just talk about it im sure youll both understand eachothers versions!

Normally I wouldn't get involved with posts like this as quite frankly im not too bothered but hypocrisy kinda bugs me.

Well, you might be jumping the gun abit here Blueie...
The raid was posted late night, just 17 hours before it is to take place. That suggest its a spur of the moment thing...

As I understand it Vavi was promted by some guildies to run a small arti raid for them late yesterday. But with only about 8-10 active people it went as can be expected and after 3 really annoying hours of trying to get the encounters, he promised to make a retry today. Im guessing, that he didnt see that there was an active raid just half an hour earlier and abit late posponing it with so little time.

Now posting raids on others slots is a bad thing, most of us can agree. Sometimes it cant be helped though, but you do the best of the situation. This seems to have been such a time. Considering the amount of Raids Vavi have posted on this forum, the amount he has happened to Cross-raided really should be proof enough that he tries to avoid them if possible. Or atleast might earn him the benefit of a dubt?

/Charmangle

 

[Bluesky]

Well, you might be jumping the gun abit here Blueie...
The raid was posted late night, and 17 hours before it is to take place. That suggest its a spur of the moment thing...

Spur of the moment or not quite a few people have seen Vav's comments about people who run a raid at the same time as his. Vav has said on several occasions he doesn't "Xraid" yet this proves he does and as he states above "If ppl need 4.2 5.9 5.10 they will show up" hence fully accepting that 2 BG raids may well happen at the same time.

As I understand it Vavi was promted by some guildies to run a small arti raid for them late yesterday. But with only about 8-10 active people it went as can be expected and after 3 really annoying hours of trying to get the encounters he promised to make a retry today. Im guessing, that he didnt see that there was an active raid just half an hour earlier and abit late posponing it with so little time.

My point is not whether Vav is helping people or not or anything to do with Vav's "motivation" to run a raid but preciesly about him being a hypocrite about different raids running at the same time.

Now posting raids on others slots is a bad thing, most of us can agree. Sometimes it cant be helped, but you do the best of it. This seems to have been such a time. Considering the amount of Raids Vavi have posted on this forum, the amount he has happened to Cross-raided really should be proof enough that he tries to avoid them if possible. Or atleast might earn him the benefit of a dubt?

I totally agree about it being a bad thing and also sometimes its unavoidable and not as important when its 1fg or small group raids etc but when its a "zerg" raid like most of Vav's raids its bound to attract a lot of people.

Personally I dont have a major issue about people running raids whenever they wish to even it runs at the same time as others as people will choose whats best for them at the time. Many of my raids have been "XRaided" by vav and others in the past and although i find it disheartening sometimes for a raid to fail thats the way it is and we like it or lump it - its really that simple.

The difference is I dont make the same claims Vav does hence my point stands about his hypocrisy. He definitely doesn't like it when people run a raid at the same time as his and is often "vocal about it". When two people post a raid before his he disregards his view about "XRaiding" when it suits him. This is plainly hypocritical which was the reason for my post.

 

[charmangle]

The difference is I dont make the same claims Vav does hence my point stands about his hypocrisy.

Well I do agree that Vavis point might not have been the best. And he sometimes have a problem getting his point across or even beeing abit rude at times, either due to always beeing in a hurry or getting annoyed for people not even giving him the benefit of a dubt to start with.

But when you wrote your post you purposly disregarded an important fact that you knew about. That he as much as humanly possible choose to place his raids not to conflict with other raids. (since you read the forum every day! But you choose to pay that fact any attention and jump directly to "hypocrit". That just wasnt fair.

Calling someone a hypocrit is abit harsh, in my opinion...a long time ago you had a comment about Raidleaders preclaiming drops from Raids they hosted. While you, yourself picked 2 item from every dragon raid you hosted, worth quite abit of money. Now to some that might seem abit hypocritical, even with your explenation to why there was a difference in situation. All of us, in other peoples eyes, act in conflict with what we have coneyed as right, at one time or another, but the circumstances are different and therefor might make it ok, atleast in our own eyes. (Now try and make sence of that sentance!

My point here is merly to get you and Trollum to maybe consider that there might actually have been a choice between not hosting an arti raid for anyone or do it this way, or it might not have been, but atleast try to get a calm and cohersive response from Vavi, without it beeing in an attack like form as it is now!

Just give him the benefit of a dubt since 99% of all his raids posted here have been clear of other raids, it seems abit strange if he just changed his mind all of a sudden and decided to screw it all. Theres most often a reason...

/Charmangle

ps. But ofc I agree that Vavi could maybe sometimes use to take a deep breath and think twice before vocaling some of his furstration! Hehe I could do with some of that too btw! ds.

 

[Bluesky]

Well I do agree that Vavis point might not have been the best. And he sometimes have a problem getting his point across or even beeing abit rude at times, either due to always beeing in a hurry or getting annoyed for people not even giving him the benefit of a dubt to start with.

I really dont see the issue here - Vav said he doesn't "XRaid" and now he does. His reasons, while important to him, aren't to the point in question. Vav's rudeness/patience again isn't the point in question. If he hadn't said it then I have no issue with it but its something he does feel strongly about hence being quite vocal about it both on the forums here and in-game.

But when you wrote your post you purposly disregarded an important fact that you knew about. That he as much as humanly possible choose to place his raids not to conflict with other raids. (since you read the forum every day! But you choose to pay that fact any attention and jump directly to "hypocrit". That just wasnt fair.

Sorry but thats simply not true. I am fully aware that Vav has tried to run the majority of his raids "around" other people's or in "empty slots" so to speak and I myself have had chats with him about the scheduling of our raids in the past (when I was running 6-7 raids a week) but again, this is not the point I have issue with.

Calling someone a hypocrit is abit harsh, in my opinion...a long time ago you had a comment about Raidleaders preclaiming drops from Raids they hosted. While you, yourself picked 2 item from every dragon raid you hosted, worth quite abit of money. Now to some that might seem abit hypocritical, even with your explenation to why there was a difference in situation. All of us, in other peoples eyes, act in conflict with what we have coneyed as right, at one time or another, but the circumstances are different and therefor might make it ok, atleast in our own eyes. (Now try and make sence of that sentance!

I did make sense of it so no problem hehe. Calling someone a hypocrit may seem harsh but in this situation it is fair simply because its true.

Comparing my claiming of 2 extra stones from a haul of 55 drops from a dragon raid (where everyone on the raid gets at least 2 stones) imo is not the same as claiming a unique and usually rare drop from an ml raid. Every person on my dragon raids gets at least 2 stones and then other loot is lotto'd. My point I specifically addressed was about unique/rare loot claiming and not common loot.

My point here is merly to get you and Trollum to maybe consider that there might actually have been a choice between not hosting an arti raid for anyone or do it this way, or it might not have been, but atleast try to get a calm and cohersive response from Vavi, without it beeing in an attack like form as it is now!

Yet again I agree with you m8, but also yet again this was not my point. As I have said before I personally dont have issues with people running raids when they like altho I dont like to see anyone's raids fail simply because some other raid is running at the same time.

Just give him the benefit of a dubt since 99% of all his raids posted here have been clear of other raids, it seems abit strange if he just changed his mind all of a sudden and decided to screw it all. Theres most often a reason...

I'm sure Vav felt he had good reason to run the raid and I am not questioning his "motivation" simply that he planned his raid AFTER 2 other raids were posted before him at the same scheduled time hence as Vav puts it "XRaiding".

ps. But ofc I agree that Vavi could maybe sometimes use to take a deep breath and think twice before vocaling some of his furstration! Hehe I could do with some of that too btw! ds.

This is gettin repetitive but yet again I agree with you lol. I think everyone needs to take that "deep breath" from time to time to take stock of a situation/cool down/etc.

 

[vavires]

Tx all for joining,

It was a huge succes and was a lot of fun.
we did the following artifacts:

Ceremonial Bracelet, Phoebus Necklace, Atlantis Tablet, Staff of the gods, Egg Of Yought, Spear Of Kings, Gaurd Of Valour, Shield Of Khaos, bragerts Bown, Jascina Sash, Golden Spear, Nailahs Robe, Snakecharmer wep, Croc tooth dagger, shades Of mist, Mad Scalars, Tartaros, Erinys Charm, Malice, Battler, Bruiser and Snatchers.

Shame Bracer of Zho failed on the 9th wave but its done sunday during ml1 as well .

See ya on the next 1,
Goodnight
Vav.

 

[vavires]

Ppl like to over react as usual.

I never claimed any "rare" items as yet i know unless its not a solo drop (fe, i once claimed the cloak from 7.10 afte r3 of them dropped).

My patience is hard enough and been tested more then once.

Listen to what ulas said, what he sais about me posting this raid hasty.

U may all keep quoting eachother for every 2 lines making it kinda ridiculus. But in the end, its past, call me what ya like...sticks and bones... .

About raiding u blue, this ONLY hapenned with a ML MARATHON, where i talked to you about it as well.

Im tired and of to bed.
See ya.

 

[Bluesky]

I never claimed any "rare" items as yet i know unless its not a solo drop (fe, i once claimed the cloak from 7.10 afte r3 of them dropped).

Personally I think Phoenix Remains are pretty rare (and damn expensive) and are you seriously trying to say nothing from all those ml raids that you claimed was "rare" ? plz vav, who are you trying to convince here?

U may all keep quoting eachother for every 2 lines making it kinda ridiculus. But in the end, its past, call me what ya like...sticks and bones... .

You think its ridiculous to highlight a point and then address it ? its called debate and discussion but anyway it seems this discussion is going nowhere now.

I made my point and stand by it but at the end of the day Vav will run his raids how he likes - the same as I and other raid leaders do and if people don't like the rules set out by them then they need not attend.

 

[atos]

Well I can see why people claim "some" loot. I'd never do raids without getting some sort of benefit. My benefit from these raids has been getting some of the scrolls I missed on my chars as well as loads of rog salvage. Apart from gaining ML's on my chars ofc.


And I'm amazed you did SotG. Bloody useless to say the least. And then we and eternal plant? Probably the best seer necklace out there, followed by bearded and therafter Phoebus Harp.

 

[vavires]

Well I can see why people claim "some" loot. I'd never do raids without getting some sort of benefit. My benefit from these raids has been getting some of the scrolls I missed on my chars as well as loads of rog salvage. Apart from gaining ML's on my chars ofc.


And I'm amazed you did SotG. Bloody useless to say the least. And then we and eternal plant? Probably the best seer necklace out there, followed by bearded and therafter Phoebus Harp.

SoTG?
WE?
The rest wasnt asked, some ppl asked for NR, SW and CTD during the raid and we did it.

 

[vavires]

Personally I think Phoenix Remains are pretty rare (and damn expensive) and are you seriously trying to say nothing from all those ml raids that you claimed was "rare" ? plz vav, who are you trying to convince here?

I wouldnt call it that rare but yes i claimed that, not even once but twice, tho appart for a month or 2. the first was for myself the other for some1 i owed it to for a long time. And even then, u said it uresel fover and over, ppl make their rules on their raids. I wont claim anything if i dont need it was always said as well. I can still show u the shawl fe, or the phoenix remains ect. Heh, if i am to be called greedy or whatever now, i should have claimed roth when i dropped twice... least there was a reason for it then to call me that.

 

[Bluesky]

Vav, yet again you are missing my point.

Saying you do one thing and then doing the opposite is hypocritical - its THAT simple.

You said you "dont XRaid". You do.

You said "I never claim any rare items". You do claim rare items and have done on several occasions.

Those 2 points show a level of hypocrisy, nothing more.

You and Charmangle have brought other points up that I dont have issue with and often agree with and have posted accordingly. I had one simple point stated above.

While I and others may not agree with your views on claiming or other aspects of the way you run your raids thats those individual's issues and personally when I go on your raids I respect your rules whether i like them or not. If I or other people objected strongly enough we simply wouldn't go on the raid.

 

[mercury]

If I or other people objected strongly enough we simply wouldn't go on the raid.

Aye, Blue but what's the alternative? Vav knows he's the only guy who cba to run full-blooded mass ML raids on a regular basis.. Any other way of getting ML is just too sodding tedious. So he's really using a bit of calculated leverage to get compensation for the effort he's put in. That's why knowing there's gonna be a turn-out of 100+ toons he ain't gonna be fazed by a handful of objectors calling him a greedy git, or if they're more polite, only thinking it. The proper way to deal with this would be to turn up and offer exactly the same raid but not make pre-claims. That just aint gonna happen tho, so he knows full-well he's on safe ground. Benevolent despotism sux or rox - depends where you're standing.
Speaking for myself (as having been eligible to re-roll for Antalya's Shawl if he hadn't snaffled one) I don't really give rats ass. I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of an arti claimed in that way, unless I gave it away to a friend. Rewards can be earned or 'earned'. After 5+hrs of listening to BG spam, I leave it open as to which it is.
For 'fun only' raids, it's a bit different. I don't see the point in attending a TH raid if Nosoden's Remains are pre-claimed or TG if Guthlac is. If this is an increasing trend I wish it would stop. It never used to happen. I remember well the outrage when Ingafgrin claimed a Phoenix.

Power corrupts, even a little bit.