"Trained" US forces.

[Cadire]

No personal insults intended from me, but an attempt to get you to focus on what I was actually saying.

As for Missiles fired into Turkey; The US Military doesn't keep me informed on incidents. I doubt they keep you informed either. So we have 3 scenarios....

1. Some 'Trigger-Happy Incompetent' fired it deliberately into Turkey.

2. The Wrong information was programmed into the missile.

3. The missiles malfunctioned.

Now any of those, apart from No1, are not the work of trigger happy idiots bent on killing anything that moves, but honest to goodness errors. I've made errors, everyone I know has made mistakes. Heck, I bet even you may have made an error!

As this isn't getting us anywhere, and you won't convince me of your view any more than I will convince you of mine, I'll leave it there.

 

[old.Tohtori]

FInally something intelligent from you. Yes, you can't change my views, i can't change yours but...and it pains me to say this...you started it.

Now since i'm not the kind of person to just shake hands and say "Well, nice flaming ya, now for some tea?" i'm going to reply.

1. Some 'Trigger-Happy Incompetent' fired it deliberately into Turkey.

Doubtful they did it on purpose, agree on this.

2. The Wrong information was programmed into the missile.

Incompitence in my opinion. With modern tech it's almost impossible to fuck up in that scale. (meaning the missile lands a rough 1500 km in the wrong direction when they can strike into a 10 meter area.

3. The missiles malfunctioned.

All missiles are equipped with a self destruct code. For the tracking and this self destruct mechanism to both fail is almost an astronomically small chance. This leads to the other point, why was not the missiles destoryed when the person in charge of the tracking of those missiles noticed them going in the wrong direction? Pee break? Ran out of coffee?

 

[Sibanac]

Tohtori, you are forgeting they had a Tomahawk striking samething in Iran by accident aswell

edit: silly typo

 

[Cadire]

LOL, I was going to leave this, but you keep asking me questions about what happened as if I'm privy to that info.

I'm not, and neither are you. I put forward possible reasons for things happening, and you reply with a rant against the US and demands for explanations as to why things happened. I know you're trying to defend your thread, but you could do with a lesson in debating skills.

With your apparent expertise in missile programming and control, I'm surprised you weren't drafted. You're obviously more competent than the incompetents on the spot.

'finally something intelligent' from me eh? I'm touched :/

 

[old.Dillinja]

Originally posted by cougar-
Excuse my poor english but this is the most important content in the link.

A young soldier at the iraq border did a mistake, he thought a missile was incoming and aimed towards Camp New Jersey. He checked with other patriot stations but noone saw it Then they decided to override all the advanced computers and fired it manualy. At the same time a u.k. tornado dissapeared from the radar screens.

human errors, maybe the uk systems and us systems cant communicate proper yet, maybe the pilot flew to high/low. can only speculate. but it's a huge mistake.

The RAF already know that the tornado pilot was nothing to do with the incident, he and his navigator had done everything right during their mission and they were 10 minutes away from home before being hit.

And to Cadire, you were talking about everybody making mistakes in their everyday lives... I don't know about you, but the mistakes I make don't usually involve killing anyone.

 

[Cadire]

My mistakes don't involve killing anyone either... but then again I don't operate missile systems :/

A mistake is a mistake, the only difference is the consequences.

 

[old.Dillinja]

I see your point, but there are big mistakes and small mistakes. This was a very big mistake, and therefore should not be taken lightly, and the fact that this is not the first incident of friendly fire on the American's part makes it all seem worse.

 

[old.Tohtori]

(((LOL, I was going to leave this, but you keep asking me questions about what happened as if I'm privy to that info.)))

Nope. Just bringing my opinion out... as you are doing.

(((I put forward possible reasons for things happening, and you reply with a rant against the US and demands for explanations as to why things happened. I know you're trying to defend your thread, but you could do with a lesson in debating skills.)))

I don't rant against the US, i ask questions and raise points that are just against yours. I don't need lessons in debating, this is hardly Hard Talk on the BBC, and even if i did, i know better(compared to you as it seems) then to again attack towards other persons skills. You on the other hand first defended the US, almost as much as i "rant" against them so what is calling what black?

(((With your apparent expertise in missile programming and control, I'm surprised you weren't drafted. You're obviously more competent than the incompetents on the spot.)))

Actually i have studied missile tech, explosive tech, aviation and such in my free time since i was a toddler. I stated very basic things in every missile. Does not make me an expert but i do know something.

((('finally something intelligent' from me eh? I'm touched :/ )))

You're welcome.

EDIT: Oh and just as a bonus info. Not defending my thread, this is off-topic, nothing is holy here.

 

[Gabrial]

Originally posted by old.Dillinja
/me is reminded of Vietnam.

Why? Friendly fire? Feck me too many movies distort the picture. American Artillery and close air support was damned accurate during the 'police' action. They were not supposed to drop arty within 300 yeards (I think) of their own troops but it was often called in to within 50 yards and closer, with minimum casualties.

If you want to read about it a great book is We Were Soldiers Once, And Young." There is a film aswell but read the book, its written by the guy in charge on the ground and he manages to describe everything thats going in with a lot of clarity.

 

[old.job]

Chickenhawk's a good book too, written by a Huey pilot, one part he describes how the Viet-cong would make clearings in the jungle, knowing the choppers would drop troops in them, and they had covered them in 3ft sharpened bamboo sticks, sticking straight up, just level with the grass, the Huey's would hover and the troops jumped the last 4ft...ouch

 

[Gabrial]

Pungi pits.

The idea wasnt to kill the American troops but to incapacitate and injure. An injured soldier took additional resources (a further solder or 2 to help carry him, a medic, medical supplies, transport) whereas a dead soldier did not.

The VC tended to dig small pits with Pungi sticks around a foot long made of bamboo sticking up, sometimes smeared with human excrement to promote infection of the wound. GI steps on it and hey presto - one GI limping, one carrying him/helping. Two soldiers incapacitated. Perhaps the most simple was digging small foot shaped holes so that when they stepped in them they would wrench or twist an ankle. Again, someone would have to help carry them.

 

[Arnor]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
And nothing at all wrong, in all common sense, to shoot two missiles into Turkey. Hey, it's almost in IRAQ.

they have brown ppl in turkey

there are brown ppl in Iraq


You really think they see the difference?

 

[boromire]

Seems I've missed the debate, but as I've benn trying t stay on top of current affairs I'll add my two cents.

I personally have never been involved in military action so I can't truely comment on the stress, but I imagine most people (even with sufficient training) would be jumpy and therefore its understandable they make some errors (including fatal ones).
But sometimes I wonder how bad the Americans are at shooting, for example a few months ago I read an artical about the Royal Marines testing reflective patches on combat clothing to prevent freindly fire,although this would make them more liable to friendly snipers.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Friendly fire - it happens.

US friendly fire - it just happens way too often.
That's the problem.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but the brunt of the US armed forces are better baboons. I have trained with US soldiers, too.
They have icons on their equipment (no, I am not talking about missile operators or fighter pilots here...).

Why icons? Because a good part of them can't even read. No shit.

Safety first? We were trained to handle even an unloaded gun like a loaded one - ie the barrel pointing towards the sky or the ground at any time (for the smart asses - not when firing it).

The US soldiers we encountered on the firing range were like fucking cowboys... turning around with a loaded gun levelled etc.

Like I said... accidents happen way too often with the glorious US Army.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think the greatest reason for the us army being what it is can be explained with one thing. Join if you want.

Now mandatory drafting means that everyone gets drafted(like in mosteuropean countris) and they can actually get the best of the best from the crop. Now in the US, if you have any talent, you don't join the army but do something else like become a doctor or a cerial(yes i mean cerial) killer. So what are the US stuck with? Triggerhappy...incompitent...pardon my french but...redneck hillbillys who think everyone who doesn't wear a US flag in their arm is a giant gerbil who needs to be shot immedietly and ask them if it hurt later.

So, i'm sticking with "incompitent triggerhappy morons".

 

[Gabrial]

Guys, you cant brand an entire army as trigger happy yokels

How about we compromise and say most are?

 

[old.Tohtori]

True....true...i was wrong.

Ahem.

I think that 90% of the US army are trigger happy uncompitent yahoos, the rest 10% are lard assed officers sitting in bunkers deep under the holy soil of the United States of Ameeeeerica.

Better?

 

[Gabrial]

Much

Would be better 90% yahoos, 5% lardies and 5% gutsy feckers

 

[Sharma]

also a grenade was lobbed into a tent with US troops in i think they died or were servely injured, 1 thing i gotta say is that Americans are truly thick to the bone or they are more trigger happy than Dom Joly

 

[calif101]

Its more to do with the lack of discipline, you only have to watch them on TV (never mind training with them, that’s another story) to see how they lack discipline, I was watching when some of them fired a missile on a building....jeez you’d of thought that by hitting the RIGHT building would mean the war is over.......I know when I was in our military if we’d have done that we’d would have had some sergeant giving us a right < insert naughty word here> telling us to keep our minds on the job.......

The American’s are brave, Most are well trained but yes they are trigger-happy and need to be more disciplined
.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

When I was on my 3 month tour in Croatia years and years ago, we observed some G.I levelling his gun (because he was afraid... at least it looked like he was) at some demonstrators.

His seargent gave him one fat smack on the ear.

 

[old.tRoG]

If you gave an massive army of legless chickens insanely powerful weaponry, they'd still murder a handful of the most highly trained 'LeeT' soldiers.

The theory behind the US army, methinks.

 

[old.Dillinja]

Originally posted by sharma
also a grenade was lobbed into a tent with US troops in i think they died or were servely injured, 1 thing i gotta say is that Americans are truly thick to the bone or they are more trigger happy than Dom Joly

This guy wasn't trigger happy or thick, he went nuts and decided to blow up some of his own men.

 

[old.Sko]

Latest developments - brits were too pissed off by friendly fire and bombed american tank column.

 

[Kobold]

I guess

 

[cougar-]

at first attack in this new war, usa let brittish s.a.s do the first operations, very dangerous ones ofcourse. One could wonder if us couldent muster guys with traning to complete the mission or if the its easyer to sacrifice brits, (or ofcourse some logic reason we never can know about).

 

[old.Dillinja]

Originally posted by cougar-
at first attack in this new war, usa let brittish s.a.s do the first operations, very dangerous ones ofcourse. One could wonder if us couldent muster guys with traning to complete the mission or if the its easyer to sacrifice brits, (or ofcourse some logic reason we never can know about).

The SAS are one of the best if not the best trained forces in the world. I doubt anything the Yanks have got could ever match them. Navy SEALS? heh...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Ey...no dissing Teh Seals.

 

[Gabrial]

I keep meaning to read Bravo two-zero - should be an interesting read.

Its pretty well established that the SAS is the best in the world at what they do, with the ability to act fast and hard at short notice. You see a bloke in a black balaclava coming for you, you run like hell and hope you make it.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by Gabrial
I keep meaning to read Bravo two-zero - should be an interesting read.

Its pretty well established that the SAS is the best in the world at what they do, with the ability to act fast and hard at short notice. You see a bloke in a black balaclava coming for you, you run like hell and hope you make it.

You don't want to mess with German mountain troops either..