Torture to become legal in the US

[Fana]

"Mr. Bush, as he made clear yesterday, intends to continue using the CIA to secretly detain and abuse certain terrorist suspects. He will do so by issuing his own interpretation of the Geneva Conventions in an executive order and by relying on questionable Justice Department opinions that authorize such practices as exposing prisoners to hypothermia and prolonged sleep deprivation. Under the compromise agreed to yesterday, Congress would recognize his authority to take these steps and prevent prisoners from appealing them to U.S. courts. The bill would also immunize CIA personnel from prosecution for all but the most serious abuses and protect those who in the past violated U.S. law against war crimes. ... In effect, the agreement means that U.S. violations of international human rights law can continue as long as Mr. Bush is president, with Congress's tacit assent"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092101647.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html

Where the fuck is the world going when the most powerful nation in the world is turning its back on human rights, with the consent of its people?

 

[Thorwyn]

[sarcasm]

But mate...
don´t you see that it´s for the good? It´s for the war against terror and stuff. And our side aka the good boys certainly won´t abuse this, I assure you.

[/sarcasm]

 

[Chronictank]

Where the fuck is the world going when the most powerful nation in the world is turning its back on human rights, with the consent of its people?

Hitler managed it, i guess its Bush's turn
This has been built up for a while now unfortunately so not a big surprise :/
We will probably see some "anti-terror law" passed here too soon i guess

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

sounds to me like the american people should brush up their coup techniques like in thailand, and totally reform that countrie's government, make lobbying for commercial companies illegal, set a max campain fund, so that everyone has an equal chance and forbid anyone earning more than 100% over average to become president, or any government official. Should atleast help a bit getting all the corruptness out.

 

[TdC]

Take any of the 'alternative' methods that Bush wants to use on U.S. detainees and imagine someone using those methods on your son or daughter. If the bad guys captured your son and tossed him, naked, into a cell kept at a temperature just slightly higher than an average refrigerator, then repeatedly doused him with ice water to induce hypothermia, would that be okay? What if they shackled him to a wall for days so he couldn't sit or lie down without hanging his whole body weight on his arms? What if they threatened to rape and kill his wife, or pretended they were burying him alive? What if they did all these things by turns? Would you have any problem deciding that these methods are cruel? . . .

Indeed. If an Iraqi, or a Frenchman, or an Inuit, or anyone else in the world tried it the outcry would be extreme. Ofc America doing it is allowed.

Not. If this indeed gets through you won't believe the amount of shit that is going to occur.

the U.S. will hereafter violate the Geneva Conventions by engaging in cold cell, long time standing, etc.

I wonder what Fortress Europe will do?

 

[Mey]

Big Brother just got nasty!

 

[Mojo]

Torture is tricky subject and under circumstances necessary, in fact under the right circumstances I think most people (unless complete cowards and idiots would condone it) But making it legal as such, I don’t know, it's seem it's going a bit far but then they do it anyway, legal just means it's somehow sanctioned. Will there be an increase or will we just be more aware of it as members of the public?

It seem radically wrong but I’m not sure that it is much of a change in reality.

 

[DocWolfe]

I dont think america is thinking of the consequences it will have on its own people, if america feels they can alter the geneva convention whats stopping other countries deciding to do the same.

 

[Mabs]

geneva convention is all in the wording tho. like the banned weapons - anyone else find this laughable btw ? were going to kill people, but not in a nasty way....ok.
anyway - israelis were using cluster bombs on palestine, they are civilians not military so you can get away with it. same way the russians in WW2 got away with stuff by using the NKVD = police , ie not covered by it.
you can get round it if your careful enough

end of the day tho, depends what form it would take. cutting someone's fingers off with wirecutters = torture. forcing them to take a drug to make them more susceptive to questioning = torture....
but once they start, where would it stop ? fucking unbelievable . whats next ? secret police state ? .. oh, wait... uke:

 

[Celestino]

ory mojo ?

I think its a major change, especially if u keep in mind that interpreting international agreements also allows any enemy of yours to use ur interpretation against you. Americans cross the line, and in that they make it so much more easier for anyone they will face in the future to do the same.
Soon enough they will have an army full of 50 year old mexicans that fight their wars to become legal citizens coz noone else will want to give their lives under these conditions.

 

[Mojo]

ory mojo ?

I think its a major change, especially if u keep in mind that interpreting international agreements also allows any enemy of yours to use ur interpretation against you. Americans cross the line, and in that they make it so much more easier for anyone they will face in the future to do the same.
Soon enough they will have an army full of 50 year old mexicans that fight their wars to become legal citizens coz noone else will want to give their lives under these conditions.

I cant think of anyone the US have fought with recently who wouldn't torture American troops had any been captured, so no change there.

 

[Chronictank]

I cant think of anyone the US have fought with recently who wouldn't torture American troops had any been captured, so no change there.

most people would read that comment and ask why, you seem to be using it as some kind of justification.
Maybe, just maybe people see what the US troops do to their prisoners in their militar camps and lose all sympathy for them. If they followed the geneva convention in the first place they wouldnt be in the situation they are in

Especially seeing as most other nationalities are relased un-harmed if they are at all released

 

[Mojo]

Maybe, just maybe people see what the US troops do to their prisoners in their militar camps and lose all sympathy for them. If they followed the geneva convention in the first place they wouldnt be in the situation they are in

I don't know about most people but I read that and think that you justify torturing people if they do it to you first, and thats Ok is it?

"Tommy broke the Geneva convention first Miss!!!!"

 

[Chronictank]

I don't know about most people but I read that and think that you justify torturing people if they do it to you first, and thats Ok is it?

"Tommy broke the Geneva convention first Miss!!!!"

quote me where i say it is ok,
they dug their own grave etc.. whats the use digging deeper is the point seeing as you missed it

 

[Sharma]

Im gonna stick my neck out on this one but here goes.

I mean it's questionable if they have no proof and are torturing, but stop with the politcally correct crap, these people are out to fucking mess up our lives, im sorry but provided they have at least some proof about links to terrorist cells, I would gladly back them torturing.

These people have helped kill quite a large amount of people so I would rather see these people hung drawn and quartered in front of a large audience. They deserve no better.

Do you honestly think they give 2 shits about the geneva convention? They cut some guys head off on national TV, fuck it.

 

[Chronictank]

Im gonna stick my neck out on this one but here goes.

I mean it's questionable if they have no proof and are torturing, but stop with the politcally correct crap, these people are out to fucking mess up our lives, im sorry but provided they have at least some proof about links to terrorist cells, I would gladly back them torturing.

These people have helped kill quite a large amount of people so I would rather see these people hung drawn and quartered in front of a large audience. They deserve no better.

The fact of the matter is, they are arresting people with no evidence. They only have to "suspect" they are involved in terrorist activities, much the same as in the UK (which also is a load of bullsh**, they can arrest you for a insane ammount of time and you cant do anything about it. So if your fired in the meantime because they havent told anyone of your whereabouts you dont get any compensation for it whatsoever (if at all you can compensate ruining someones life)).
Im sure you would be happy being tortured because they "suspected" you of being involved in terrorist activities, permanantly mentally and/or physically crippled then released with a "oops we had the wrong person"

Why dont we just go the whole hog and implement a dictatorship, with secret police and the works

 

[Mojo]

quote me where i say it is ok,
they dug their own grave etc.. whats the use digging deeper is the point seeing as you missed it

You didn't say it was ok you implied it, using lines like "They dug their own grave" reinforces that, what else is that supposed to mean? They started it so you can do what you want to them, having "dug their own grave"



And while were on the subject of clarifiaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo
I cant think of anyone the US have fought with recently who wouldn't torture American troops had any been captured, so no change there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronictank
most people would read that comment and ask why, you seem to be using it as some kind of justification.

What did you think i was justifying? or did you just dive head first into an argument without bothering to read anything prior?

 

[Sharma]

The fact of the matter is, they are arresting people with no evidence. They only have to "suspect" they are involved in terrorist activities, much the same as in the UK (which also is a load of bullsh**, they can arrest you for a insane ammount of time and you cant do anything about it. So if your fired in the meantime because they havent told anyone of your whereabouts you dont get any compensation for it whatsoever (if at all you can compensate ruining someones life)).
Im sure you would be happy being tortured because they "suspected" you of being involved in terrorist activities, permanantly mentally and/or physically crippled then released with a "oops we had the wrong person"

Why dont we just go the whole hog and implement a dictatorship, with secret police and the works

Which is why I stated proof will make all the difference.

The amount is questionable most of them I agree.

 

[Chronictank]

You didn't say it was ok you implied it, using lines like "They dug their own grave" reinforces that, what else is that supposed to mean? They started it so you can do what you want to them, having "dug their own grave"

They dug their own grave

They invaded a country, and its inhabitants faught back, they then detained and tortured the POW's they caught. They should be expecting the result being the same when their own troops get caught.

I dont see how i said its ok to do any of the above, i simply stated thats what they did and thats what the result is

whats the use digging deeper

Speaks for itself really

What did you think i was justifying? or did you just dive head first into an argument without bothering to read anything prior?

ory mojo ?

I think its a major change, especially if u keep in mind that interpreting international agreements also allows any enemy of yours to use ur interpretation against you. Americans cross the line, and in that they make it so much more easier for anyone they will face in the future to do the same.
Soon enough they will have an army full of 50 year old mexicans that fight their wars to become legal citizens coz noone else will want to give their lives under these conditions.

I cant think of anyone the US have fought with recently who wouldn't torture American troops had any been captured, so no change there.

You say its happening anyway in responce to Celestino saying it will increase the ammount of torture happening, hence pushing the point its happening anyway so the law wont make much difference, therefore (me reading into it based on:

Torture is tricky subject and under circumstances necessary, in fact under the right circumstances I think most people (unless complete cowards and idiots would condone it)

showing you think torture is justified in certain circumstances) wheres the harm in it

 

[Blackjack]

Ok, making torture "legal" is a very very bad. But lots of you say he is doing it with the full consent of his people like Hitler. And that is BS, i know several americans, all thinks he is ruining the country. His approval rating is lower than any other president ever. So the only people behind him at the moment is the patriotic gun nuts and christian fanatics. I know it's oh so fashionable to be anti america. But imho you shouldn't judge the entire country on one nutjobs politics. They know they made a mistake by re-election him. And america as a whole do have serious flaws, but they are not as bad as they are made out to be.

 

[Roalith]

Said it before and I'll say it again - can't wait for the 2008 Presidential Election where GWB turns round and gets the Supreme Court to declare that he must remain in power to see through the conclusion of the 'war on terror' - in other words, the US turns into a dictatorship

 

[Celestino]

What exactly has beeing politically correct to do with respecting human rights ?
Its either all or none and no matter how many ppl someone killed, it doesn't give you the fuckin right to become a murderer urself... still there are lot of idiots who can't understand this simple logic and in times or war everything u can get away with is and will be appropriate thats why we as the so called civilized world shouldn't cross the lines for those who have even less issues with morality than we have

 

[Mojo]

You say its happening anyway in responce to Celestino saying it will increase the ammount of torture happening, hence pushing the point its happening anyway so the law wont make much difference, therefore (me reading into it based on showing you think torture is justified in certain circumstances) wheres the harm in it

Wow hang on i said "It seem radically wrong but I’m not sure that it is much of a change in reality"

No one has said anything to make me think any different, the points made just reinforce my belief that everyone is torturing everyone else anyway. (regardless of their reasons, and who started it)

It is also my beleif that in certain situations there might be a reason to turture, I also beleive that in these situations people would be tortured law or not, and that they probably have been.

Are we going to see more tortures? or is Amnesity just going to be shooting more blanks in the argument now?

Saying that you don't think it will make a difference doesn't mean you agree with it, arguing why u dont think it will make a difference doesn't mean you agree with it. However, saying "It seems radically wrong" would suggest that I don't agree with it.

 

[Sharma]

Said it before and I'll say it again - can't wait for the 2008 Presidential Election where GWB turns round and gets the Supreme Court to declare that he must remain in power to see through the conclusion of the 'war on terror' - in other words, the US turns into a dictatorship

"Team America, has once again pissed off the entire world" comes to mind.

 

[liloe]

Tbh I'm with Chronic on that. Legalizing torture is something I can never approve of. So these terrorists are there to make our life a living hell? Well while this is true, how do you think some of them justify their acts? Prisoners got tortured in a war-camp, revenge now. Basically by using their methods you admit that you're not one cent better and all it does is making the situation escalate.

Whenever some country violated the human rights, the "western" nations tried to fix the problem, put sanctions on the country, wanted to make them change and now the US oficially adopts their methods? Isn't that like admitting that the "western" idea lost? People in our countries fought for a few hundred years to achieve what we have nowadays and this law would throw it all away in the glimpse of an eye.

Also Sharma, what does "proof" mean. If it means a 100% certainty of guilt, then good luck justifying that on people. We're not talking about a robber who got caught by the police in a house, we're talking about people who get sometimes randomly picked out cause they're of islamic religion. We're not talking about everyday criminals here, we're talking about people who are assumed terrorists. So now your local police finds a bomb in an apartment, what do you do? Find the owner and torture him and ask what that is in his apartment? I'm really looking forward to such a state, really.

I really hope the EU holds strong against this, cause accepting this would mean throwing everything away and becoming weaker. Saying "no" now would mean a good unifying for the EU aswell as a reinforcing of their position.

All in all we shouldn't be hasty in taking things we can't give back and we should especially be an example instead of taking what we hate most as example.

 

[razeredge]

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm - the geneva convention
Article 13:
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Mojo]

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm - the geneva convention
Article 13:
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

"Ah but these are terrorists, not POW's" said the Americans

 

[Thorwyn]

We had an interesting case in Germany a couple of years ago.
Some guy had abducted a boy and held him captured in a secret place. The police eventually caught him, but didn´t find the boy. Now during the interrogation, the police somehow came to the impression, that the boy is still alive (which he wasn´t.. he was dead at this point, but that doesn´t matter here), so they tried everything to make the man tell them where the hide-out was. In the end, the police officer gave the order to threaten the man with torture to get the information he needed in order to save the boys life. He then reported himself for this decision.
Now, in the end, it didn´t save the boys life. However, it created a huge wave of discussion in the media and up to the highest levels of law and constitution experts.
How far can you go if retrieving a certain information from a criminal is vital to save the life of a victim?

 

[Dukat]

I think the trick is to fight them without becoming them.

Sure there may be isolated cases of "the west" torturing or abusing POW's, but this has always been seen as a 'no-no' and is usually punished where-ever possible. The geneva convention has always been "sacred ground" and I think that making changes to it is a very, very bad idea.

If it suddenly becomes allowed then things become alot nastier and we move one step closer to being like the people we are fighting, and when that happens you have to wonder what the point is.

Worrying news indeed.

 

[liloe]

We had an interesting case in Germany a couple of years ago.

It was 2 years ago I think =)) and yes, it was a really huge thing in the media.