Toa didn't ruin Daoc

[Sarisir]

Imo, bring back first release where items had little or no impact on a char, and common curtasy and a good conversation was something everyone held with an heigher regard than their wallet.

I've played ever since this game hit open beta in europe, and like most other, I've seen it going from a good mmorpg with a good community with friendly players who worked together to face an equally good community (I'm sure) in rvr struggles, to being a world of greedy ppl who wants the be the l33test of them all...

Nowadays its all about the bling bling (items that others can go WOW! at), not about who is a good friend or which guild is the best community or which keep fight was the funniest... *sigh*

This thread is a perfect example of what the game has moved to in its days online, and I blame noone for wanting the good items as they are available. But would sure wish that we would go back to pre-SI or something, game was more fun then imo...

my 2 cents

 

[Chimaira]

Agreeing with previous poster..

 

[Yussef]

Imo, bring back first release where items had little or no impact on a char, and common curtasy and a good conversation was something everyone held with an heigher regard than their wallet.

I've played ever since this game hit open beta in europe, and like most other, I've seen it going from a good mmorpg with a good community with friendly players who worked together to face an equally good community (I'm sure) in rvr struggles, to being a world of greedy ppl who wants the be the l33test of them all...

Nowadays its all about the bling bling (items that others can go WOW! at), not about who is a good friend or which guild is the best community or which keep fight was the funniest... *sigh*

This thread is a perfect example of what the game has moved to in its days online, and I blame noone for wanting the good items as they are available. But would sure wish that we would go back to pre-SI or something, game was more fun then imo...

my 2 cents

So you basically want a chat room?

 

[Chimaira]

Not what he says Yussef.

Less ignorance tbh. we have enough of it.

 

[Yussef]

I think the ignorance is from people who think there shouldn't be a grind so they can PvP. It's not like you have an equal fighting field, it's inevitable that you will need to do new grinds.

So items did have little to no impact, what's the point of a grind? Surely you could release a MMORPG without grinds at all. It's stupidity to not expect it.

When a game evolves, an economy is going to get more advanced and people will want the loot. I don't really pay to make friends, play it as it's meant to be played in my opinion.

 

[Revz]

I don't want to argue with Sarisir as well but what he said is only partically correct. Items have always made quite a difference (for example Albion being stuck in level 35 grey con stuff for ages until we were patched up to the version that populated some of the higher level dungeons with items - we got beaten quite horribly in RvR and it crippled our levelling rate during that period), it's just that most people weren't at the bleeding edge and so didn't see the problems. Likewise there were plenty of problems and arguments but they tended to be between a couple of top guilds rather than the general population because no one else was up there doing the content. RvR was a less refined science and people cared much less about their performance in it. Nowadays the only thing a large chunk of people want to do is RvR and they are extremely good at it so it puts much more pressure on.

The community probably has got more argumentative and less tolerant of mistakes but that is more to do with the age of the game and everyone having much greater experience than anything else. They expect a higher level of performance than anyone ever used to and know what their goals are much more clearly. Everyone looks back with rose-tinted spectacles and says it was better back in the day but that's mainly because so few people actually knew what they were doing

 

[Doink-666]

aye it was fun finding out new stuffs all the time and not knowing what ya were doing. All has to come to a halt at some point, gimme a game where theres new stuff to learn all the time granted dont know everything atm but the things i dont know is basically the finer points which alot of people study

 

[Tristessa]

Imho some high RR peeps just need to get rid of the whole *Im a veteran and yer beneath me* attitude towards lower RR peeps as far as RvR is concerned. Some even think they are so special that if they accidentally join a group that isnt ready made with all the classes in it, they'll just leave without even a typical *bye*. From one side I understand this. They've worked hard to get high RRs and want to have better chances of an Emain run than a cold wipeout just outside APK, but a little more courtesy wouldnt hurt. When I said my infiltrator was 2L5 once I got laughed at. Well pardonez mois but doesn't everyone have to be 2L5 at some point to reach 3L5,4L5 etc? If everyone's gonna be nasty to each other, I vote we make Prydwen a PvP server and start stalking the peeps that have pissed us off during the years. I guess I could think of a few *Opens up Enemy Tome and looks at all the nice names alphabetically*

 

[Smellysox]

I agree with sarisir and yussef has a point end of the day its what u want out of the game some ppl want to make friends and connections across the world and have a good time, some ppl just want to play it best they can and get some nice kills in emain to chat with friends and gu over it and be l33tzors because its fun either way u look at it , we pay so why not ? .. Cant blame them either way some days it can take a good 6 hrs to do a riad thats alot of effort ... play play and have fun and spend <8 pound a month on !! > cmon goa gifv addict daily discounts tbh ;< :eek2:

 

[Sarisir]

Want to correct a previous mt there... ofc there should be important items and great goals at the end of the tunnel, no doubt... But, my post was meant to lash out against the mentality that has become daoc.

Its all about the items and how greater you are compared to the next realm m8... Where as I preferred the time when ppl didn't care if the next guy had better equip than you had, but instead if he was a nice person to talk to and a good team player that did his or her best when it was needed...

True that nowadays everybody has great amounts of exp doing most stuff ingame, and there is almost no new things or dungeons to explore, so the tolerance has reduced greatly when someone new comes along and does something n00bish...

But as Smelly said, we all pay to play this game, we all get to act the way we like to... but everyone should know that common curtacy and a "" goes a long way compared to a FFS... And at the end of the day, atleast for me, a good time on a raid or a good rvr session makes me log back in faster than just having 1 P more in my wallet.

Imo, this game is slowly dieing out cuz there are only so many things you can do in it, and for most, the only thing that they keep playing it for is the fun time with the friends in /gu and /as.

My hope lies with NF, really hope it will raise the realm spirit considerably...

 

[nerfbbs]

To quote from the WoW website:

Bind on equip/use works as I explained. Bind on acquire works exactly like the NO DROP status I was talking about. It's nice that you can look into the minds of the developers and predict exactly why these flags are present on items, I wish I had that skill. Have you actually played a game where such items are prevelant enough to understand their real impact on an economy? .

If u can be bothered to rad the discussion boards u will see that the developers are specifacally aiming to prevent distortion to the economy caused by repeated farming, not to mention ppl selling items for 'real' money on ebay etc. The various flags are still being modified and will not be applied equally across all items - the rare the item the less chance to sell it seems to be the way they are going.

Crafting is not remotely difficult, it is just time and resource hungry. I didn't say it had been "nerfed" either but simply put back in the correct place .

again this has been addressed in WoW where at lvl5 say crafted boot > dropped but crafted glove < dropped whilst at lvl 7 crafted boot < dropped but crafted glove > dropped.

60 plats worth of crafting and god knows how many hours just to make LGW's for other ppl at no cost is a nerf imo.

Additionally have you not thought about why there is so much cash floating around that creates high prices? It is precisely because of spellcrafting that everyone spent so long farming DF seals and converting them into money so they could buy the crafted parts of their templates. Combine this with housing (which also prompted mass cash farming) and you have a situation where the people who prepared early are rolling in cash because it is the only way they can get hold of valuable commodities (spellcrafted items and houses). If they could have been farmed off normal mobs I'm sure they would have been as this is infinitely preferable to days and days of camping diamond seals. .

And of course the money I spend on buying components remains in circulation ?

This is the most insane analogy I've ever read. People farming items are "mining" them from mobs and also "selling" them. They provide both the raw materials and also the service by which they get to market (which allows everyone else to get hold of them). Hence they make the money by being both ends of the supply chain.

Obviously never studied US history then - read up on the '49 gold strike if u like

 

[Escape]

Ingame economies shouldn't be so hardcore. Who really cares about being an entrepreneur on an online game! Trade items in the real world if you want to see big profits... at least it'll pay your bills. Now you'll argue that ingame money can pay your bills! if you sell ##plat on Ebay or item##

A few unemployed geeks with nothing better to do should kill the server's economy for the other 2000 players? It seems pretty messed up to me, but it's to be expected from an online game.

Obviously I don't like the high prices, but I'm not claiming to be innocent. I've had some items on my CM for 30p and will price the rest based on the current market value. If the prices on rare items came down, I'd drop mine too.. but I'm not going to sell something for 100g if I can get 10p+ for it!

The trouble isn't with ToA or the prices... it's more to do with the people. As the game matured, the players became immature. Just look at the unnecessary flames and hostility on these forums and you'll understand why so many decent people left the game.... which increasesed the percentage of aggressive young teens, who could probably corner the market on gay college-boy porn... if they only knew how to setup a webcam. But it's no matter, they can farm ingame items and be really rich and stuff.

 

[nerfbbs]

Lo Seks

Long time no see - how u doing

Yerk

 

[Escape]

Been on holiday... went south and got zerged by Polish refugees

 

[Yussef]

An economy is an appeal of a static world. At least competition for a mob on a repop timer limits the supply of an item, whereas instancing in it's most basic form does not. Instancing used properly is fine with me, jumping on the bandwagon is what pisses me off.

A challenging instanced encounter is fine with me, with raid force size limits. I don't want people chain farming instanced encounters with a zerg and then flooding the market with the loot. Also, to prevent farming an instanced encounter, there should be some form of a limit to prevent it. In the shape of a time limit or the encounter will stop dropping loot if the same people are doing the encounter. I can see both sides of the argument against competing for mobs. However I don't feel that a mirror image of an encounter should be fodder for people to farm. A fair shot at the encounter without needing to "wait your turn" sounds ok, but abusing is not an ideal feature personally.

Also I think a shared server is pointless without some form of competition (Excluding PvP). Instancing = ghost town servers to me. I'm hoping they implement enough worthwhile content which is placed in a directly competitive playing field to appease some factions. However, it really does depend how they finally implement it, both forms of dealing with content have pros and cons. I just hope they don't make it too easy nor too hard, as I do like a challenge.

Also it does really depend on how flagging is used, in terms of encounters and equipment. I'm really only going to play with people I trust, there's no way I'm going to play with people I don't know properly in a "Bind on acquire" environment. Especially with people who fail to follow instructions or act maliciously. Although a counter argument is that you need to trust raid leaders to handle loot properly anyway, but I think a random environment is more "dangerous" as word of mouth can destroy raid leaders.

That's enough of a ramble for now anyway

 

[Tristessa]

All I think would be needed is a flag that once someone aquires an item, he simply cannot get that item again. No binding necessary, if he/she wants he could give it away or sell it, but that would be it for him. He/she could never get that same item. And I'm certain with a tactic like that, people wouldn't *accidentally* forget to turn their autosplit off during a raid, in case they pickup a drop, give it to the raid leader and never be able to get it again. But I guess something like that would have to have been implemented from the start so everyone can be accustomed with it. Otherwise, there would be alot of crying across the DAOC servers Btw since I assume there are players of plenty of the larger guilds reading these forums, is it hard for everyone to agree on certain understandings as far as artifact camping etc. are concerned, and then passed on to their guilds to make life easier for everyone?

 

[Cerdric]

You say TOA hasnt ruined DAOC?? errr mate what you call people waiting 6 -20 hours for a artifact??? "oh! look our keeps are being taken...opps cant get out of here or ill loose spot for arti!" Besides you say buying scrolls for 10p is not expensive??? For your information I only get the scolls i need, and other scrolls i just give them to guild or i sell them for ALWAYS the same price -->1p.


Kinetic
50th season ice wiz

 

[Krissy]

I think your find that keeps are normaly not defended when we have no relics due to guilds like blackByrd Family, which bored albion with their pathetic "Easy Mode" farming (healers+ Smers), Or the animist pet zerg outside keeps for hib "Easy Mode" farming.

Albion keeps were never heavily defended, as much as you might like to pretend they were, we all know they wernt.

And why defend keeps when you have no relics to protect?

Its not ToA thats ruined daoc, its Lazy people that are looking for an escape goat. Deal with your flaws, not try and displace them.

If you arnt happy with daoc, try change it, dont whine about it. Or failing that QUIT.

 

[Darzil]

Regarding the economy thing.

Money comes into the game in many places. The only place it goes out in any serious quantity is crafting and housing. As the drops get better, and less crafted goods are needed, a larger amount of money stays in the hands of characters. Prices will naturally tend to rise for in demand items as a result.

Darzil

 

[Escape]

The player economy, is another failing of daoc.
It's not that people want artifacts and drops, it's more to do with needing them... and there's the problem. In a PvE game, you could have rare high-level drops which would sell for silly amounts of money. It'd be nice to have them, but no big deal if you don't. That's not true for daoc.

It's like needing to kill several bosses to gain lv52. Everyone needs that level to compete in RvR, but these mobs spawn about once every 10hours and there're 1000 people who need to kill them. Some freak has his 3rd account lv20-character camping the spot 24/7 to get the quest items and sell for 20p+

Players with enough plats can buy the items, but those without the cash or a suitable PvE character+bb are left behind. So is someone going to justify this as the other nonsense I've been reading?

Crafters were meant to be the characters making money and driving the economy. Now, a random class can pickup a rare scroll and make more money in a day, than your average crafter would in months. Are all weaponcrafters resigned to making LW and thidranki weapons? High level drops should be better than crafted, but they shouldn't make crafters totally redundant.

 

[Chrystina]

60 plats worth of crafting and god knows how many hours just to make LGW's for other ppl at no cost is a nerf imo.

you picked up the wrong craft then my friend... my AC'er and SC'er are doing pretty well and so is my Alchemist can't say crafting is nerfed for me

 

[Krissy]

Players with enough plats can buy the items, but those without the cash or a suitable PvE character+bb are left behind. So is someone going to justify this as the other nonsense I've been reading?

Many people without great PvE chars often level them, if they dont then they should be left behind, often PvE ownage chars are RvR nightmares.

If you dont have a bb, band together with some friends/guildies/ppl who need what u want too, and farm. You can always roll for the items and sell them after wards (Much like Minimez's DV Farm raids).

Although its not the best way of things happening, its a great way to encourage ppl to level new chars for different aspecs of the game, its part of the games "time sink" system which forces ppl to not leave as well as keep them busy while paying for the game still.

Might not be fair to many, but its how things work, rich kids often have it easy, their parants work as daoc BB's do, same as daoc goes, rich kids have multi accounts,lots of free time, ability to buy accounts (had someone ask me awhile ago about him and his 7 friends were gonna all buy lvl 50 RR6+ chars on alb/prydwen so they could RvR....).

Supply and demand is what the games based on, just need to find something people want, and work out a way to suply it while its needed (first ML9 farms etc).

 

[Yussef]

Nothing is -needed-, but everything helps to -compete- better. If no one done TOA, then no one else would feel the need to have to do that stuff. However in reality someone is going to do it, which does force everyone else, I agree. However to play a MMORPG for pure PvP is quite idiotic imo. Why even bother with the grinds? How can you introduce new content for a PvE community without it effecting PvP somehow?

Also you can gain cash during RvR next patch, so classes that do not do well in PvE but do well in RvR will have some form of income in a more enjoyable method perhaps.

 

[Escape]

The idea behind ToA was to introduce new PvE content without affecting RvR... and in true Mythic form, they did a splendid job of it!

I'm playing daoc for the full experience (PvE + PvP) but I don't like the grind after grind after grind. It's arguably the worst in ToA. But I'm not too bothered really, just playing the game when I get time. I posted here to say the ingame economy isn't working as it should. Those people who skilled up crafters over months of boredom, are making less money than some ebay noob+bb who's farmed a couple of artis and made 100p in a week. This is meant to be a good example of an ingame economy? oO

Many people without great PvE chars often level them, if they dont then they should be left behind...

If the same is said for rvr, then accusations of being 'fotm', 'elitist' etc are thrown around(I'm not saying you have btw! ). The idea of rolling a lv50 to farm items for your main is pretty absurd... but that's daoc for you!

The game mostly works for a minority of players who have too much time on their hands.

 

[Saggy]

However to play a MMORPG for pure PvP is quite idiotic imo. Why even bother with the grinds? How can you introduce new content for a PvE community without it effecting PvP somehow?

Well, good start would be making the new content for a PvE community to effect more PvE than RvR Where is the logic with only 41/80 of MAs working in PvE? The grind called RvR should effect PvE much more than it does now - how about a "IwinAbility" for each ML by getting new RR and new command "/summon arti mob x" after each Realm Level? Oh, ToA PvE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-ToA PvE, too bad its effect on RvR was everything else than needed.

 

[Yussef]

I seriously struggle to imagine worthwhile content gained from PvE effecting PvE environments only. If it did effect PvE only, you could argue that the whole levelling process effecting the PvP environment is flawed. Why even bother PvE'ing if it's not going to help you in PvP? If you don't want PvE to effect PvP, placing them in a combo package is kind of bizarre. The whole of PvE imbalances PvP itself to an extent, level/equipment imbalances etc.

Also the RA system arguably effects PvE and RvR in various ways rather than PvE indirectly, which also applies to the RA system. I.E Mastery of Water etc . I always feel both systems are a valid way of post 50 advancement, as the levelling grind itself generally offers minimal advancement.

Pre TOA PvE was indeed laughable, except a few select items which were dropped, the rest were crafted/quested which resulted in generic setups really.

 

[Saggy]

I seriously struggle to imagine worthwhile content gained from PvE effecting PvE environments only. If it did effect PvE only, you could argue that the whole levelling process effecting the PvP environment is flawed. Why even bother PvE'ing if it's not going to help you in PvP? If you don't want PvE to effect PvP, placing them in a combo package is kind of bizarre. The whole of PvE imbalances PvP itself to an extent, level/equipment imbalances etc.

Well, you can level by PvP or PvE so that isn't an issue The point isn't that PvE shouldn't effect PvP, the point is that it should effect PvE more than PvP (as for the question why to PvE if it wont help you with PvP, well, people are PvE'ing for fun so surely they would enjoy to use all those new abilities to PvE some more? ) and that "unwanted PvE and RvR grinds" should be equal - the importance of Artis/MAs is way bigger in RvR than what RAs and +skill are in PvE.

Also the RA system arguably effects PvE and RvR in various ways rather than PvE indirectly, which also applies to the RA system. I.E Mastery of Water etc . I always feel both systems are a valid way of post 50 advancement, as the levelling grind itself generally offers minimal advancement.

The most logical way would be two separate ability systems for both PvE and RvR imo - by PvE'ing you would become better PvEr and by RvR'ing you would become better RvRer. Shame that Mythic's next big brainfart will be RR11 requirement for new PvE-dungeons and ML10 requirement to enter keeps

 

[Revz]

I seem to be experiencing some deja vu here but...

How much should PvE effect RvR combat in the opinions of people posting in this thread? Would it be preferrable to have fixed level 50, RR10, ML10 characters with the same items that did not degrade battle each other in Emain?

What it seems to me is that people generally want enough PvE in the game so that they can get an advantage over other people with it but not so much that someone else with a greater tolerance/ability for it can get an advantage over them. The ideal amount of PvE being that which allows you to max out a character in fractionally less than the time it takes for you to get bored playing

 

[Escape]

Being expected to farm for 100hours+ or pay upwards of 100plat just to get a new SC set, is going kinda far. Mythic should find ways of adding 'fun' content, instead of flat pve. Aside from a couple of steps, MLs were done pretty well, but artifacts are plain tedious.

 

[Yussef]

You can only do so much PvE before you get bored, unless a lot of new content is added. But yeah that system sounds ok, but I doubt there would ever be a true balance between the two unless you limit where they can be used etc. It would be interesting to see how many people would quit DAOC if the RA system was removed and people had to RvR for the sake of it though