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old.Downanael
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- #31
Every +rr3 infil/scout/mincer leave leave 
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sh33py
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Agreed you need a limit on the speed uber items come into the game but low percentage drops on mobs with their respawns in hours is just stupid and incredibly boring, it's definately not fun which is supposedly what games are supposed to be
There has to be a better way, if you're gonna spend days camping a mob it should at least drop other items that are worthwhile as apposed to absolutely nothing, i.e. mephy runs in diablo2.
Imo all mobs should have a % chance to drop a random item, magic or otherwise with a small % chance for a really powerful unique magic or the like, hunting for loot should just be a part of normal hunting as apposed to sitting in one spot killing the same mob for a few days.
All dungeons should be part of a quest too, with a story behind it, something actually going on in there, locked doors with guards that you have multiple options to bypass, bribe, perform a task, kill? RPG's are all about choices yet mmorpgs give you just one- kill everything. And then right at the bottom instances for the boss final encounter that drops something cool.
I don't really see the goal/requirement problem though, the thing is when such a huge advantage can be gained and the task of getting that advantage is particularly difficult you just get a select few powergamers owning all for a few months until the rest catch up.. I believe that people deserve a fair choice in how they want to play, for the PvP orientated all they need is to hit 50 and get a few plat for a SC suit and they're setup.
As apposed to doing quests for months to be able to compete, which is exactly the freedom that ToA will take away. No matter how diffiicult you make the quests or whatever if there's uber equipment at stake it'll always become a requirement for PvP as everyone rushes off to exploit an advantage, it just tacks on a month or two worth of game time to get there. Can't say I see that as a good thing tbh
Planetside would have been pretty cool if dave g hadn't been in charge of development, like SWG had a lot of promise but so badly executed it's just sad
Yeah absolutely but there's much more room in RvR for a group to show skill, it requires a much greater understanding of how to play your class under pressure imo.
99% of PvE provided you have the right group setup and people that have a basic understanding of how to play you can XP just fine.
XP groups are a prime example of how people can get to 50 and not have any clue whatsoever about their class or the game. True you do get clueless mid-range RR players but more likely to be traded accs or the like imo or just complete morons with a lot of time on their hands obviously
There has to be a better way, if you're gonna spend days camping a mob it should at least drop other items that are worthwhile as apposed to absolutely nothing, i.e. mephy runs in diablo2.
Imo all mobs should have a % chance to drop a random item, magic or otherwise with a small % chance for a really powerful unique magic or the like, hunting for loot should just be a part of normal hunting as apposed to sitting in one spot killing the same mob for a few days.
All dungeons should be part of a quest too, with a story behind it, something actually going on in there, locked doors with guards that you have multiple options to bypass, bribe, perform a task, kill? RPG's are all about choices yet mmorpgs give you just one- kill everything. And then right at the bottom instances for the boss final encounter that drops something cool.
I don't really see the goal/requirement problem though, the thing is when such a huge advantage can be gained and the task of getting that advantage is particularly difficult you just get a select few powergamers owning all for a few months until the rest catch up.. I believe that people deserve a fair choice in how they want to play, for the PvP orientated all they need is to hit 50 and get a few plat for a SC suit and they're setup.
As apposed to doing quests for months to be able to compete, which is exactly the freedom that ToA will take away. No matter how diffiicult you make the quests or whatever if there's uber equipment at stake it'll always become a requirement for PvP as everyone rushes off to exploit an advantage, it just tacks on a month or two worth of game time to get there. Can't say I see that as a good thing tbh
Planetside would have been pretty cool if dave g hadn't been in charge of development, like SWG had a lot of promise but so badly executed it's just sad
Yeah absolutely but there's much more room in RvR for a group to show skill, it requires a much greater understanding of how to play your class under pressure imo.
99% of PvE provided you have the right group setup and people that have a basic understanding of how to play you can XP just fine.
XP groups are a prime example of how people can get to 50 and not have any clue whatsoever about their class or the game. True you do get clueless mid-range RR players but more likely to be traded accs or the like imo or just complete morons with a lot of time on their hands obviously
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vintervargen
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Originally posted by bigchief
Toa alters/effects too much stuff thats fundamental to the current game play for my liking, especially in rvr so its unlikely i'll bother wasting money on it
that's precisely what daoc needs,,,
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old.Revz
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I pretty much agree with everything you said. There is certainly room to improve how you gain items, complete quests and so on by, if not removing, then certainly modifying long camps. It doesn't strike me as a trivial problem though and at the end of the day you still need a limit of "x item y per day" no matter how that is achieved. Just a time sink in a different guise If you can make it relatively painless then great.
As I said before there are people who use their "skill" in PvE to level fast and there are people who use their "skill" in RvR to gain realm points fast. Eventually everyone else catches up as well though so all the people with less skill end up getting there in the end. The skilled people are those who are doing things first: the people who did AE groups, whoever made up assist trains and so forth. It doesn't take much for people to latch onto this and use it though. Whilst we would both like to think that there is skill (in the traditional sense) involved in PvE / RvR respectively I think we know deep down that there isn't much. You could teach anyone how to do it in a few weeks and they would be up to 90% effectiveness pretty shortly. The major thing that seperates the cutting edge from the masses is their commitment and efficiency in going about it. I would certainly consider this efficiency and discipline a skill but it equally applies to a lot of areas, not just RvR
Happy new year as well This has been a nice discussion.
If you can make it relatively painless then great.Originally posted by sh33py
Yeah absolutely but there's much more room in RvR for a group to show skill, it requires a much greater understanding of how to play your class under pressure imo.
99% of PvE provided you have the right group setup and people that have a basic understanding of how to play you can XP just fine.
XP groups are a prime example of how people can get to 50 and not have any clue whatsoever about their class or the game. True you do get clueless mid-range RR players but more likely to be traded accs or the like imo or just complete morons with a lot of time on their hands obviously
As I said before there are people who use their "skill" in PvE to level fast and there are people who use their "skill" in RvR to gain realm points fast. Eventually everyone else catches up as well though so all the people with less skill end up getting there in the end. The skilled people are those who are doing things first: the people who did AE groups, whoever made up assist trains and so forth. It doesn't take much for people to latch onto this and use it though. Whilst we would both like to think that there is skill (in the traditional sense) involved in PvE / RvR respectively I think we know deep down that there isn't much. You could teach anyone how to do it in a few weeks and they would be up to 90% effectiveness pretty shortly. The major thing that seperates the cutting edge from the masses is their commitment and efficiency in going about it. I would certainly consider this efficiency and discipline a skill but it equally applies to a lot of areas, not just RvR
Happy new year as well
This has been a nice discussion.
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old.Whismerill
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- #35
Good speech as usual Gideon, hope you wil be back as soon as possible my friend.
Sh33py said something right about the bad side of PvE tho. Some days ago, Seven was having a raid in Sidi, the kind of raid you quote upper, until .. we found out that one KL, hence *key* as thats what we were missing wasnt there. All doors were then locked, the raid was over. You have probably 1 fg loged in there, camping the place and just poping every 8 hours, to bash it and get a drop.
Thats what can break PvE.
Happy new year to you Gideon and to all BW readers.
Sh33py said something right about the bad side of PvE tho. Some days ago, Seven was having a raid in Sidi, the kind of raid you quote upper, until .. we found out that one KL, hence *key* as thats what we were missing wasnt there. All doors were then locked, the raid was over. You have probably 1 fg loged in there, camping the place and just poping every 8 hours, to bash it and get a drop.
Thats what can break PvE.
Happy new year to you Gideon and to all BW readers.
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bigchief
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- #36
Yes lets have more places like Sidi, its just the sorta 'fun' I want.
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sh33py
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Originally posted by old.Revz
Happy new year as well
Ya same to you
And yeah to an extent, RvR takes longer to learn but basically most people will get there in the end.
Sidi's flaw is the long respawn timer, the idea is good though, dungeons need to be more than just underground mob camps.
http://www.blizzard.com/wow/townhall/dungeons.shtml
That looks pretty good
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Yuffy
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Aadia
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Originally posted by sh33py
DAoC combat in comparison is boring, repetitive and the locations are dull, coupled with long downtime if you're stupid enough to do it without a buffbot.
It really does frighten me that there are people out there that love it so much and can't see a massive timesink of pointlessness when they're presented with one, but then thousands play EQ and SWG so I guess it's not all that shocking
What's more frightening are people who seem to hate it so much but still seem to spend most of their time playing it and posting on boards about it.
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sh33py
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- #40
Or that people can post on boards without acutally reading/understanding anything.
The quote is as regards to PvE, I don't spend any time PvEing anymore bar the odd day or two PLing an alt to 50 but I do enjoy RvR in the odd times that it's not completely zerged to death.
DAoC is about the best PvP mmorpg out atm and probably the best overall really, i've had my fair share of AO, SWG, AC2 before the nerfs etc. which all suck giant donkey balls now.
The one major flaw in the "don't slag what you play" argument is when there is absolutely no better alternative, at least until WoW; providing it lives up to its hype.
Just because you spend a lot of time playing something doesn't mean you can't point out obvious huge flaws in it, especially in a genre that is still so young, just because we all play daoc doesn't mean we automatically have to become everlasting fanbois and sing it's praises from the highest mountains.
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bracken_woodman
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Just so you know, I made the post (was on Aadias pc at the time and forgot my own account log in
). The quote relates to a part of the game that many people do enjoy - and just because they enjoy it doesnt mean to say they dont realise that its also a timesink. The point you made implied that somehow people who like pve don't possess your razorsharp powers of perception in seeing that mythic has (shock horror) designed the game in order to make people spend time playing it.
Pve can still be alot of fun - to me its more about how you approach it though. If you do it with the "must get to 50 asap" mentality then sure it can quickly get boring - it becomes a chore. Personally I try and keep reminding myself of that sense of fun and wonder I had the very first day I pulled it out of the box. Not always easy, but when I play like that the pve side can still be a good laugh. When I really do not get any fun any more from the game then I will stop playing.
Apologies in sounding harsh, but it just gets a little bit tiring seeing people constantly bitch about the game, saying they "aren't going to play it when..." and "xxx is going to be so much better" and so on when they have the option of just not playing. The game is as it is, the pve aint perfect, the rvr is primarily geared towards large-scale fights (which are often imbalanced), there is no 1fg battleground, there are too many infils and savages are a pain in the ass. But at the end of the day we all have the option of taking it or leaving it.
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sh33py
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Originally posted by bracken_woodman
But at the end of the day we all have the option of taking it or leaving it.
and expressing personal opinions about topics, which afaik is the purpose of this forum, and yeah we do have the option of taking or leaving it and I'd leave it in an instant if there was something better, but sadly, there's not
I know it's cliche, everyone says xxx will be the greatest ever but I truly believe blizzard can make a mmorpg that is fun to play for even the most sceptical player, when you think of it it really isn't that difficult, the flaws of the mmorpg genre are clear it's just devs can get away with a nice looking gfx engine and a clone of EQ so why bother putting any originality in?
Many people do enjoy it but many people also play/played EQ/SWG thus many people are dumb
I'm sure people do realise such things are just artificial means for longer subscription periods but doesn't that make it worse if they realise it yet do it regardless?
I'm not beyond enjoying a PvE encounter but I find it completely impossible in daoc, EQ or any other mmorpg so far, the quests are just too godawful, take Horizons for example, a game that prides itself on it's PvE, I had a mess around with the beta and encountered a quest giver in town, who asked whether i wanted a short-medium or long quest. K.
Short was kill 10 mobs, medium was 25 mobs, long was 50.... What the fuck is that? Someone's idea of a joke?
That's what they call a "dynamic quest system". Daoc's is ride the length of the world on horse, kill mob, ride back, get another part, ride back to where you came from, kill another mob. How can anyone enjoy this? Really
It's incomprehensible for me.As for just good ol' group XPing you find a spot that's good for your level and sit there pulling mobs that die in exactly the same way, do the exact same path and are identical clones of each other for a few hours. This is fun? *boggle*.
I keep hearing about how if you approach it from a non-powergaming point of view it's fun but I see that as just playing in blissful ignorance, maybe that's better, who knows, I prefer to get it over and done with as fast as possible and on to something that is fun.
Anyway I digress, I believe your original point was that I don't enjoy the game which isn't true, I enjoy RvR, I just find the PvE side of the game completely repulsive.
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Wai
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- #43
So because i don't like pve i am not a welcome gamer in daoc in yr eys?
been playing since 1 month after release near enough and loved rvr the moment i took my first run as a lvl20 way back when, but because i don't like spending hours/days even weeks camping 1 mob for a drop thats worth alot, or because i don't like farming stuff myself i'm not a welcome... each to thier own imo, i like rvr, h8 pve, others maybe different. Another difference is i accept ppl are different and make thier own choices, i don't tell em to go play another game because thier choice is not the same as mine
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Arnor
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Originally posted by old.Revz
It isn't a terribly good idea to extrapolate how fun a game will be from screenshots and the small snatches of information that have been provided. I would imagine that if you really hate grinding levels in DAoC then you will really hate it in WoW also so don't artificially get your hopes up that it will somehow change and be magically exciting all the time. They will probably make it better but the whole "kill mobs, gain levels and loot" isn't going to be dramatically different I wouldn't have thought. Also, have you tried the EQ questing system? Or the one in AO? The DAoC quests are a walk in the park compared to those.
Strangely that whole killing mobs and levelling up is what a lot of people like to do. Hence Mythic giving people what they want
afaik the eq epic quests took like a week to finish mostly
shadowknight epic quest was e-z
ended with the npc that was gonna "make" the sword for you made it and wanted to keep it for himself, so he attacked you with it iirc ^^
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old.Revz
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Originally posted by Arnor
afaik the eq epic quests took like a week to finish mostly
shadowknight epic quest was e-z
ended with the npc that was gonna "make" the sword for you made it and wanted to keep it for himself, so he attacked you with it iirc ^^
They took months to figure out the first time and with everyone attempting to do them during Kunark they were exceedingly long and complex until the methods became well known. Even now they aren't a complete walk over. For example the SK epic (since you referred to it) can be done in about one day if you have the rare drops and if you are willing to use some shortcuts (like invis turn in to avoid faction problems that people used to have to solve the long way). Those rare drops are the hard part:
Some of them can take weeks to get unless you are extremely lucky and with 72 hour spawn times on certain mobs you simply can't speed those bits up. I've personally done the EQ shaman epic and it was much longer/harder than the DAoC cleric epic which I completed in less than 6 hours the very day the server came up with them available on it. Do you know what made things so fast in DAoC? Quest mobs always dropping the necessary parts when you killed them and the fact that they were generally spawned in the first place. EQ quest parts were mostly rare drops (maybe 5-10% chance of dropping each kill) off hard to kill or hard to find mobs. Just ask monks about the raster camp or clerics about Ragefire
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lakih
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- #46
You are very welcome. It was mearly a suggestion as DAoC is (IMO) 60% PvE and 40% RvR.
Guess im just alittle tierd of people who stopped / will stop playing DAoC and still posting lots about how much it sucks and how great everyother new mmorpg thats in development will be.
Everyone who doesnt grief and/or cheat is welcome to play DAoC in my eyes
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Wai
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- #47
ah k, my apoligies thought it was a dig at me
agreed tbh daoc is 60% pve but its just my least favourite % of daoc, love rvr'ing, got absoloutly np thought with having to pve with toa, tbh since i got my SI finally working actually ben trying to get in on a few sidi raids to see if i can rekindle some sort of love for pve... won't ever give up daoc though tbh, even if game decides to change so much it becomes a fps i'd still be playing it till the end
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sh33py
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- #48
Contentwise perhaps but the majority of daoc players are 50, any that aren't are probably levelling alts due to the game being 2 yrs old and how many continue to PvE after hitting 50?
Look at all the PvE content that SI added and how empty all the zones are, exactly the same thing will happen with ToA, they'll get frelled about with for a while then go back to being completely dead like the SI zones are.
That's not due to the lack of players, it's because of how easy hitting 50 is and how most people then go on to devote their efforts on RvR.
The game is more like 80% RvR 20% PvE and even less when you consider how long it takes to hit 50, say 5 days, then how long it takes to hit rr6-7 for most people
Look at all the PvE content that SI added and how empty all the zones are, exactly the same thing will happen with ToA, they'll get frelled about with for a while then go back to being completely dead like the SI zones are.
That's not due to the lack of players, it's because of how easy hitting 50 is and how most people then go on to devote their efforts on RvR.
The game is more like 80% RvR 20% PvE and even less when you consider how long it takes to hit 50, say 5 days, then how long it takes to hit rr6-7 for most people
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old.Revz
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Originally posted by sh33py
The game is more like 80% RvR 20% PvE and even less when you consider how long it takes to hit 50, say 5 days, then how long it takes to hit rr6-7 for most people
It depends where you are pulling those figures from
Does PvE stop the moment you hit level 50? Not really because you would still only have basic equipment (or spellcrafted stuff you bought). As I mentioned in a previous post you can get equipment that is "good enough" quite easily (one of the games problems) but to assemble the perfect kit for any class is quite a time consuming business. Furthermore a lot of people like to craft (for which you need cash from PvE as well), do quests, explore the land now death isn't a problem, organise events or simply roleplay. Lets not forget those people who aren't racing to level 50 as well and spend time enjoying the journey. There is vastly more PvE content available and so how you split your time would vary hugely by person I suspect. You could spend 80% of it in RvR but I doubt that is what most people do because I've seen several "RvR is in a poor state" type posts bemoaning the lack of players doing just that You don't often see "not enough people PvE" complaints
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sh33py
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- #50
Well duh, PvE requires 1fg max generally unless you're raiding, the less people doing PvE = less camping so hardly a bad thing.
If people were so in love with it the PvE SI zones, sidi etc. would be permenantly full, about the only dungeon that see's use is DF with the occasional sidi raid for mad loot of course. Once DF is closed they all bugger off back to emain to zerg DC
Anyway I said despite the amount of content, getting to lvl50 is like 3 days, getting rr6 is like 50, so to say that the game is PvE focused is bullshit, no matter how much you love PvE you'd be hard pressed to find 50 days worth of content on the same char.
Sure there's a lot of content but the end goal of daoc has and always will be RvR, it's also the main reason a lot of it's players play and what most people focus on doing these days.
If people were so in love with it the PvE SI zones, sidi etc. would be permenantly full, about the only dungeon that see's use is DF with the occasional sidi raid for mad loot of course. Once DF is closed they all bugger off back to emain to zerg DC
Anyway I said despite the amount of content, getting to lvl50 is like 3 days, getting rr6 is like 50, so to say that the game is PvE focused is bullshit, no matter how much you love PvE you'd be hard pressed to find 50 days worth of content on the same char.
Sure there's a lot of content but the end goal of daoc has and always will be RvR, it's also the main reason a lot of it's players play and what most people focus on doing these days.
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Falcon
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Been playing ToA since it was released now and absolutely loving it, you do NOT need to do Master Levels to compete, most ML paths have turned out next to worthless and the ones that aren't often have spells with long cast times, like, 15 seconds meaning they're totally used in fg vs fg RvR or solo RvR but useful in large scale RvR where everyone receives the benefits from them anyhow, this is wonderful design in that the smaller scale RvR will be totally unaffected by it but larger scale RvR will be effected by it with only requiring a minority (i.e. those who want to) to go through with it.
Artifacts are the real battle changers, however again they're not hard to aquire, I have Shades of Mist at level 10 on my ranger, one of the hardest artifacts to get and farm scrolls for, took around 3 days to get the artifact, the scrolls and get it to level 10 whilst at the same time getting Belt of the Sun (where scroll 3 is also thought of as a rare scroll) and getting from level47 to 50.
It's kind of funny because MLs are, as pointed out already, in no way essential and those whining about them are doing them for what? They're either doing them because they actually do enjoy them or because they're the type of people that feel they have to have everything, well guess what, you don't get everything by doing nothing.
With things like +cast speed and items that auto-debuff targets by 5 - 10% and such mages are actually fairly feasible again.
IMO ToA is nothing but positive for the game, it slaps people who want to be uber without putting an ounce of work into getting uber in the face which can only be a good thing. If you don't want to put the time in you can't be uber, tough luck, you don't deserve to be more powerful than someone who does make the effort. Not only that but the encounters are often damn good fun, the AI is much better (although /gu hears many a scream from me such as "Fucking kiting, diseasing, quickcasting, debuffing mobs!". The only people who will really see a change is soloers, i.e. mostly stealthers because then artifacts really do come into play and a lot of artifacts can make or break you in a 1 vs 1 fight yet might not be so noticeable in fg+ fights - think of IP, uber as a 1 vs 1 tool, crap as a group/zerg tool.
Artifacts are the real battle changers, however again they're not hard to aquire, I have Shades of Mist at level 10 on my ranger, one of the hardest artifacts to get and farm scrolls for, took around 3 days to get the artifact, the scrolls and get it to level 10 whilst at the same time getting Belt of the Sun (where scroll 3 is also thought of as a rare scroll) and getting from level47 to 50.
It's kind of funny because MLs are, as pointed out already, in no way essential and those whining about them are doing them for what? They're either doing them because they actually do enjoy them or because they're the type of people that feel they have to have everything, well guess what, you don't get everything by doing nothing.
With things like +cast speed and items that auto-debuff targets by 5 - 10% and such mages are actually fairly feasible again.
IMO ToA is nothing but positive for the game, it slaps people who want to be uber without putting an ounce of work into getting uber in the face which can only be a good thing. If you don't want to put the time in you can't be uber, tough luck, you don't deserve to be more powerful than someone who does make the effort. Not only that but the encounters are often damn good fun, the AI is much better (although /gu hears many a scream from me such as "Fucking kiting, diseasing, quickcasting, debuffing mobs!". The only people who will really see a change is soloers, i.e. mostly stealthers because then artifacts really do come into play and a lot of artifacts can make or break you in a 1 vs 1 fight yet might not be so noticeable in fg+ fights - think of IP, uber as a 1 vs 1 tool, crap as a group/zerg tool.
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borim
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lol... to all you "F**K TOA! I'll leave the game when it comes!"
Try it first then whine at BW
Try it first then whine at BW