to Krom (and yes i want every1 to read)

[Jiggs]

omg its counterstrike all over again

 

[old.Anarki]

to Anubis: as far as i remember you started playing daoc after my Thane was lvl 30 :sleeping:

 

[=Shazzy=]

If you guys go onto http://daoc.catacombs.com about 2 weeks ago there was a post about a guy that played on the USA Servers and he was banned for using a Radar/Mapping program. I was a very long post which took over an hour to read, but it had everything in there...

The Radar system can't pick up stealthers, but you a 360 degree turn, which sometimes unstealts the person to you just a few a second (only on your screen) never seen it myself.. which then can be picked up by the radar, and it also has a very long f8 targetting around, thats wha Krom was able to tell what level those guys where, not sure how he knew the class...

But if you read the post if it is still on the catacombs.com site it will tell you how mythic detect if your using a radar program..

I have to say when i first went to Emain within 2 weeks of my character made i killed Krom by pure chance he was running away and only had 4% of hp left....

But i agree with someone that said send this stuff into Rightnow and let GOA take it further...

But if he can tell what level and range someone from a distance of 3500 he is cheating there is no doubt about it.. and if other midgards say he is cheating then he has to be... the only people sticking up for him is he friends and he fellow guildmates... i say kick that russian twat out the game... not offense to the other russians..

 

[old.Nol]

If it works at all like other gaming engines, the stealthed model will still be there only the skin will be translucent, tranclucency settings can be adjusted accordingly. These engines use predictive paths(how come we use lag ghosts) that help modemers play effectively. If the character dissapears completely, there is no information available for it's predictive path, which would make the game pretty laggy and shite.

 

[K0nah]

gotta say, the best way to get a cheat banned IS NOT TO POST LIKE THIS IN A FORUM. whats the first thing this guys gonna do if he does cheat? yes thats right, stop using the program, for a week or two. report them and keep quiet (no matter how angry u are) and hope GOA actually do monitor the fools activites/movements.

 

[old.Anarki]

I never reported to GOA, i dont report on any1, well thats my princip or stupidity, but i want to make this issue publick.

 

[stable]

Well anarki, perhaps you did wrong then!!

Well this is counterstrike all over again!!!

you are closer than you think, me and a few mates made a prog we called DAogc. .......lol....... and it was linuxbased and needed 3 linuxmachines to work. This program made it possible to pick up packages sendt to the server from players, but unfortunately all players, and you could "see"stealthed. No radar or stuff but their loc. The problem we are still struggling with is to make our prog filter out the non interesting chars it also recieves info about. But we dicided to give it up, and stop cheating for after 10 minutes the joy of the game was gone!!!!!!!

So unless you are atempting to win the 1,000,000 dollar first price( which does not exist) there is no reason, or joy to cheating

 

[old.Tart]

To the people that say dont post links here about Odins Eye and other hacks cheats that I have found.

Well I told GOA and Mythic about these hacks (well Odins Eye) over 3 weeks ago, when I first discovered them on the web. I have had no response.

All I am trying to do is make this knowledge common so that GOA feel forced to do something about it, and im sorry but cathing 5-7 cheaters a week is not the way forward, how many people play this game in the UK over 1000.

I have played many online games, CS, Diablo 2, Jumpgate, to see them all attacked by cheats, I dont wont a good game runied, by some lame cheats and hackers.

Maybe I was wrong in posting links to the sites here, but at the end of the day anyone who knows anything about the net, and knows how to use google can find them. It took me less than 40 secs to locate them. If these cheats and hacks are not sorted the problem will only get worse.

 

[old.Odysseus]

The server only sends you information about things that could be visible to your character

That is how it _should_ be, that is how I would have programmed it:
<for each -client connected- C>
<SELECT * FROM char-database WHERE visible=true, inrange=true, .... etc>
<send * to client C>

However, some things lead me to believe that this is not entirely true.
- mobs (hibzerg) behind amg make me lag (could be serverside), it seems as though within a certain range everything is drawn by the engine eventhough it is not visible 2 u.
This puts a heavy load on your GPU.

If this is true, a prog could be able to see hidden within that specific range.

How much is done serverside is very important: Are the stealthed ppl filthered out client or serverside? I dont know, I assume its serverside cuz thats how I would have done it.

More questions here than answers really

 

[Alrindel]

Once again, information about the location of stealthed players that your character cannot see is NOT sent to your client. If you still have any doubts about this, peruse the message boards for the customer support of the most popular radar chat program (yes, "customer support" - if you don't know, the programmer who made this hack charges money for it, and provides updates to his customers whenever Mythic changes the DAoC client and the cheat stops working). It's the number one complaint about the cheat program - that it can't show the position of stealthed players.

And if you wonder if any Excalibur players are using it, don't wonder too long. There are also messages on that forum like, "The English Euro servers were patched today and the cheat program stopped working! Please send me the new version as soon as possible!" uke:

Well I told GOA and Mythic about these hacks (well Odins Eye) over 3 weeks ago, when I first discovered them on the web. I have had no response.

All I am trying to do is make this knowledge common so that GOA feel forced to do something about it.

Tart, for God's sake please please please open your brain and try to understand this: THERE IS NOTHING GOA OR MYTHIC CAN DO TO STOP THESE CHEAT PROGRAMS FROM WORKING. Every encryption, every clever programming countermeasure, every change to the netcode they introduce is worked around minutes after the client is patched. MYTHIC AND GOA KNOW MORE ABOUT THESE HACKS THAN YOU DO. They actively research them to figure out new ways of catching the people using them, and they ban their accounts. BY POSTING THE DOWNLOAD LOCATIONS AND INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS OF THESE HACKS YOU ARE MAKING THINGS WORSE. If you don't want to see a good game ruined, why are you doing your best to encourage people to cheat?

 

[old.Odysseus]

A policy of public banning would surely be the most effective means to cut this to a minimum.

And if the hackers themselves say info about stealth is not sent, it prolly isnt.

edit:
talking in caps wont make ppl listen more, alrindel :/

 

[Torin]

Originally posted by -yoda-
for the guy who said he posted on your forums that h didnt use radar , Do you really think he would tell you if he was using radar ? how do you think he would tell you if he was ? maybe summin like this .
to the small amount of pople who have run with him in emain and been killed by albs/mids . if he had radar i doubt he would use it everytime he went to emain . cos then it would be far to suspiscious , notice the way he doesnt post here to defend himself ? .

Hehe, u r telling that he is not stupid to write on Guild forum that he is using radar - but he was stupid anough to give info like Cogar - than he IS stupid.

And as for proof - I have my guildm8 word vs some guy named ANarki ... and all i see is WORDS ..... NO screenshot from Cogar ... no Screenshor from Xanatea ...

And it's SO EASY to blame and to make all believe SOMEONE is a cheater just BY WORDS .. if u want to do something bad to that person or you r just jelous.

So im still waiting for Cogar's Screnshot ....
And i still have no PROOF.
And Anarki - i DO NOT BELIVE YOU. Yes, simply like that. After all u done before .. trying crossteaming using possiblity to log on some Midgard accounts and all problems u done while playing on Midgard ... just so.

So people .STOP talking - give PROOF.
A lot of ppl was talking about Alpha using Radar .. and what ? is he banned or do someone making offenbce on him ? no!

And i can write here 10+ examples when Alpha's play was way too suspitios .... when he appeared in the places where noone did before to kill one person ... when he found me after 5 mins i left him on sprint mezzed and so on ... but is he flamed ? no!
SO STOP IT OR GET PROOF

 

[Alrindel]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus
edit:
talking in caps wont make ppl listen more, alrindel :/

Sorry, you're right of course. But Tart is someone that I really would like to shout at in real life for what he's been doing here for the past couple of days, although somehow I doubt it would do any good.

 

[old.Odysseus]

Sorry, you're right of course

Im always right

Glad to find someone on these boards that actually back up his words with some plausible sources.

 

[Cowled]

First time Madeleine, Karam or another person even TRIES to use cheat, to find me... im reporting.. also if im not certaint.

 

[cougar-]

got no screens, dont care what u belive or not. even if someone had screens ppl would think they are edited in photoshop or whatever. im sure he cheated a few times, if he does now, who knows. dont know if thats the issue. anyway , enjoy the promised 3 pages of more flaming.

 

[old.Tart]

Tart, for God's sake please please please open your brain and try to understand this: THERE IS NOTHING GOA OR MYTHIC CAN DO TO STOP THESE CHEAT PROGRAMS FROM WORKING. Every encryption, every clever programming countermeasure, every change to the netcode they introduce is worked around minutes after the client is patched. MYTHIC AND GOA KNOW MORE ABOUT THESE HACKS THAN YOU DO. They actively research them to figure out new ways of catching the people using them, and they ban their accounts. BY POSTING THE DOWNLOAD LOCATIONS AND INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS OF THESE HACKS YOU ARE MAKING THINGS WORSE. If you don't want to see a good game ruined, why are you doing your best to encourage people to cheat?

Erm I think your missing the point. why is GOA, Mythic trying to cover this up. We have had NO official reply from either of them as to what they are actively doing to sort the problem, now either u know more than I do (which u may). My point is I have been playing online games for over 15 years. and have seen many of them runied by cheats and hacks.

Im trying to get GOA and Mythic to admit there is a problem, trying to hide the truth is just plain lame.

How many people have been perm banned from servers. as far as i know none (unless anyone tells me different). Lets get this out in the open, yer I know a few peeps had temp bans for bug abusing but 3 day bans is not the answer.

We need some official word from whoever, thats all im going to say end of subject.

Ohh and Adrindel (or whatever you are called) If you want to come shout at me no problem, just dont moan when this game falls apart, becasue no one from GOA/MYTHIC will do anything about these cheats/hacks.

While I accept that it hard for them to do anything, it just shows a lack in there expertise in coding, if games are made with these sort of loop holes in them, simple as that (sorry to say).

I have seen it all before Diablo 2, CS etc etc to name but a few good games ruined.

 

[stable]

not gonna flame you cougar. i can understand your frustration. Come to think of it, and you will probably hate me now. But i play cs quite a lot, and through the years i have been pissed off at cheaters lots of times, but it has come to my knowledge that if you have played the game enough you get even better than the cheating programs, this is because on any game it will eventually become a pattern on players way of moving and hiding. This goes for cs, and is probably easier to see there, that skilled players don`t need to have a good aim, but they know where people most likely camps. And they have got the ability to think, which computer progz don`t. This goes for DAOC aswell, after playing quite a lot on the american servers in midgard, it is hardly any problems to find hibbies or albs because they all walk the same places.


Well, like all other games people will try to ruin them, why i do not know. Goa is taking the problem seriously.(and yes i think i know quite a lot more than you) But i can agree that some public statement should be made!!!



So no game is without patterns, and a good player may be better than cheating progz.

i am not saying that the named people didn`t cheat, but i am not saying they did, i have no way of knowing and i do not wanna toss alegations at people who could be innocent!!!!

As alrindel said, GOA is working on it, but it isn`t much they can do unfortunately :-(

 

[Alrindel]

We need some official word from whoever, thats all im going to say end of subject.

Tart, Mythic's web site is STUFFED with information about this issue. Here are three recent posts on the Camelot Herald from Mythic about cheat programs, what Mythic's policy is towards them (characters deleted and accounts closed), and how players should respond if they think they know that someone is cheating. There are plenty more, because despite the fact that omg you just noticed it and you're all sweaty, flustered and excited, this problem is a year old now. Do you think they should post a special update just because you never bothered to read them before, and you just now heard about it?

http://www.camelotherald.com/more/430.php
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/444.php
http://www.camelotherald.com/more/469.php

Do a search in this forum and you will find threads from July and earlier talking about this same issue. Mythic and GOA are not "covering up" anything, it's just old news and everything that needs to be said has already been said.

 

[Garnet]

Originally posted by Cowled
First time Madeleine, Karam or another person even TRIES to use cheat, to find me... im reporting.. also if im not certaint.

Madeleine doesnt cheat and probably wont cheat.. about time you lame albs get it into your head. Doesnt matter if karam cheats i mean he cant fight to save his life just like me

 

[Torin]

Originally posted by old.Garnet
Madeleine doesnt cheat and probably wont cheat.. about time you lame albs get it into your head. Doesnt matter if karam cheats i mean he cant fight to save his life just like me

I do not know why, but i will not be supprised if soon ill see Post - Madeleine cheats! - just because some lame n00b Alb got ganked .... Its ppl - they think that they r the best, and if someone is better than they r - he is cheater.

 

[censi]

Alrindel,

Im not a programmer, I dont know the hows and the whys. I just know it exists and I know of more than 1 person who uses it. (and no I dont use it, as any enemy assasin will tell you, I tend to get nailed by them a lot <sigh>)

But there is no point in anyone pretending to know how the server operates. If this is a true sight exploit then getting your client to perform this RA perminently and indefienetly may not be out of the question... I dont really know how it works... but it does exist.

 

[quinthar]

I spent well over 2 years implemeting anti cheat devices and/or tools for TFC to stop the cheats. (Forget CS it came a long time after TFC).

It was reasonably successful, we caugth a few peeps banned a few peeps, but since TFC was free people had nothing to lose.

With DAoC its a little differant, I laugh when I see calls for Screen Shots or the like to really confirm whether somebody is cheating.

All you need a reasonable evidence, in TFC it was sometimes down to Referees and Admins to determine if somebody was cheating.

We didnt need proof we simply needed to have compelling reasons to ban somebody, I suspect that GOA/MYTHIC have the same policy.

When I admined TFC and later CS we used to do demos of the suspected cheats, and that was enough in many cases.

As with almost all online games you will never be 100% certain that somebody cheated (I have heard "My friend did it or somebody must have put it on my PC or it was my brother that cheated, you can ask him, a 1000 times already) I can sleep well at night knowing that I was convinced that people were banned becasue we beleived they were cheating.

Goa et el will be the same, they dont need screenshots they dont need logs, they just need to be pretty sure that a user was cheating to ban you.

There is no way to detect radar through the use of technology, ( i searched for Odins eye last night after reading these forums, and found it in less than 30secs), the way I understand it to happening is that a packet sniffer views all packets and simply uses this captured data to put somethign into some sort of map.

The capture is passive and thus cannot be detected, so we come back to reasonable proof, you cheat and there is a chance that you'll get caught.

Posts here about cheats simply forewarn those that are alledged to be cheating.

Grats on a job well done, you have probably blown any chance to catch the above mentioned person cheating.

*sigh*

 

[Sabu]

Originally posted by censi
Alrindel,

Im not a programmer, I dont know the hows and the whys. I just know it exists and I know of more than 1 person who uses it.

Report !!!

 

[illu]

It all boils down to if you want to cheat - cheat - you will probably eventually get found out.

And yes - great - you may make a few more RP's, but at the end of the day, you will be a lame arse, and at the end of the day, the "satisfaction" of a game is totally lost if you cheat.

I have warcraft 3 at home - and I have the cheats for it. If I was pressed for time, I would probably cheat, but the fact is, it's such a class game, the enjoyment and thrill I get out of winning a level fairly, is the whole point to the game. This feeling carries over into most games, especially DAOC.

I not going to spend the 15+ DAYS of my life to get to lvl50 and RvR to feel it cheapened by resorting to cheating to kill ppl. The whole game is about having fun and helping people and progressing your character slowly but surely. The people that will do the best on this game will be the people that have time to play it 24/7, but for a lot of people - like me - I go to work, then come home, and if I can squeeze it in, I'll play for an hour I tell myself, then end up going to bed at some absurd hour in the morning

So the choice is there, people will always cheat, but thankfully the majority don't.

Oli - ILLU

 

[Krom]

you cheater, cheater, CHEATER yelled n00bs after each luck headshot in CS

I hope all post here already (who want) ...
So I give now answer to all who did post here...

2Anarki
Guy, I knew u before as old player and good skilled enemy. But this post – It is your real face, face of ill boy. May be u need a psychologist consultation?

All your "proofs" looks a LOL! It's can be understudied, if it was been said by n00b, but I see your real reason to do this post can be sampled by one phrase:
- haha, i kill him as lamo (in DF)
- again kill him, he lamo
- damn, he kill me
- he again kill me! ffs!
- wtf! he again kill me, how he seen me behind _my_ camp stone!
- WTF! he kill me near atk gobors! its impossible too see me here!
- WTF he using pbae mezz in AMG!!!
- grr, f*cking cheater

I don't know what r u seen playing by Uger (or think that u seen) (and for me shell not surprise now, if u do it much more for spying), as sample I don't remember that I raiding in CG with Uger and Giramas in these two week, when I see u online (don't know where r u before)…may be u post here more details? I think u haven't any real proof because:
- all proofs that u post here looks as lol, not needs to explain its.
- if u was really have proofs u was been send it to GOA and don't tell here about your "princip", because all that u was want – cover me by tons of shit, and u do it…


2Zagg
Of course I remember the Great day, when I and Giramas twice kill Alpha
It was a terrible enemy and he kill me sometimes when I feel me in safe, but I don't think that is real reason to make post like that in common forum…
About your experiment – it's common tactic, as I know… always when stealthier spotted near me and I late send pet I cast two-three pbae mezz, run away out from ~1.5 sight radius and make shot backsprint in hope that he follow me unsheathed…

2cymos U r lurikeen? don't remember any ench named 'Cymos'…if yes, I remember occurrence, about u speak. U was in group of hibs, killed by albs at tower, u gone to W hill and I seen u by pure accident because my group was dead and went to mtk. U send your pet on me, I on u, I run to S by top of hill and was busy pet-killing. U kill my pet and I decided, that I lost U, when not find u at levians and grogans…I simple went to mmg and your spotting near DC-lake stones was surprise to me.

cougar-
Your word or dirty lie and words take out of context or a total unmistaken.
I was can said: 4 albs (can) inc soon, pala, arm, yellow or blue etc, mean that we kill theirs 15 min ago at amg (for example). I think u don't really think that I can type with speed of sound and so dump for post info that uncover me…may be u tell us who is the "mids who rvr alot in emain knows he cheats"?

Khalen
I often check amg/mmg corners for logging ppl, esp. at morning…just a luck.

2Xana&Co

I don't expect that black envy from GM's of best guild of Excalibur…
I play in your group Xana only two or three times, and never lead your group. So your word "ive played in his groups so i know" it`s not a truth! It`s only your guess.

When I first time to hear yours 'radar-man' said by other NP members I took it as compliment, but now it's mockery.

Most of any tricks that I use already posted here, it's all well known, and I never did secret in use it.

- I always use camera-rotation. My turning key is right-mouse button and observe key "space". With moving keys r EDSF my "big" finger all time up space, that I rebind vs ~.
I don't know already how many times I repeat myself: "ppl, use ~key, don't run with blinkers on eyes and every day I see that ppl ignore my words…I seen many expamles, when fg sticked to leader passing in 2 steps of enemy's, and all because ppl on stick not looking around, and leader typing or drinking a coffee atm…
I ready to /bow every one in group, who can seen INC from back half sphere in first 5 sec.

- Of course I use "lag-trick" and "ghost-bag". I have bad Inet connect (often I reduce max connect speed to 14400 for more stable…. russian wooden cable ©Attle) and have not fast comp with Xabre video card… Due that I very good sence the large inc and often can guess direction by lag-ghosts and "graf-bags". Don't do secret from that and many other ppl use this tricks…

- Last month I try to organize mids RvR in morning-hours, when I'm playing…do /cg if it`s not exist, asking stealthier for scouting, gathering all mids in one zerg and pull back some "brave" mids, who going alone to camped mmg, trying to use tactic vs dump camping amg, of course I need much info for that! If I seen by /who st's or raiders in brei/cg I ask theirs about hibs, ask SB to scout atk, use info from /gu /cg /g /as.

- Think smart! Albs and hibs (esp.) going to emain by only few routes. If u kill fg hibs morning u can easy trap theirs at bolg ~10-15 min later. Also as camp spots…it fondly to think, that so good known camp spots as stones and birches at mtk or gobor grove, grannies grove and alp's hill can be safe for u! I often leave mtk by E hill for surprise any campers or scouts at mtk and often I find theirs there.


Of course I understand that some ppl don't want to hear any of my explanations. They deaf to it, and don't have any except "Alter Ego". Pls, don't post here yours "opinion" without evidence more.

I will play one or two weeks more up to my RR6 as I plan it before, pls send your report to GOA and I'll send my, lets they check up me all time, I shell play as I play now, and u will see my /g INC from --== SW ==-- as before.

I also do /gc quit myself, because I proud be a member of <Black Company> and don't want to harm it. If my guild mates invite me again – I'll back.

p.s. forgive me for my grammar mistakes, English is not my native language.

 

[old.sbr]

Krom: respect!

Those claims presented against you make no sense. Just /ignore them and their authors.

--
Dev Null
4x SM

 

[old.Anarki]

All your "proofs" looks a LOL! It's can be understudied, if it was been said by n00b, but I see your real reason to do this post can be sampled by one phrase:- haha, i kill him as lamo (in DF)
- again kill him, he lamo
- damn, he kill me
- he again kill me! ffs!
- wtf! he again kill me, how he seen me behind _my_ camp stone!
- WTF! he kill me near atk gobors! its impossible too see me here!
- WTF he using pbae mezz in AMG!!!
- grr, f*cking cheater

No its not that simple All started when one morning i was soloing emian in CG, when some1, dont remember the name said " FG mids inc from mpk, Krom there do you know he ussing radar so he knows where we are" Afcourse i thought thats bullshit cause didnt even thought that prog exists and Krom is russian lol its a joke he dont cheat. Well after some "you gank us, we gank you" for some days i went to mPK, and stealthed near forest that is not far from gravyard, then it was like, WTF, here comes Krom and pbae every tree. Thats when i started to suspect something, cause i wasnt alone there there was some scout also i think Lathoniel who caught mez. Then many times people told in CG that Krom cheats, and that acident with Uger, me and Ialk decided to set up an experiment. After ganking you and 3 more people in your group, me and Ialkarn went to mPK where i left him on hill and stealthed near PK thinking "Now my sexy ass would be raped by SB". Well thank god no SB's vere there at this hour. Well Krom and rest members of his team ported. Since i was stelathed they didnt noticed me, but it was Obvious they knew Ialkarn was on the hill. They went to the direction on grawyard and came on him from behind. That prooved everything for me. In addition to all examples i said earlyer, and that scares me even more: Me, Edelia and Danyan cought in pbae mez while walkig stealthed through amg! Zaggs example, what said Xanatea and Cougar. Yes that are only word's, and noone can prove them, but people will be suspicious next time somethng REALLY strange will happen.

As for me lol i dont care how many times i die, how many times i kill you, its just a game for me, and as idont care for Rp's i dont mind dying in the game. I just dont want to find myself standing in the middle of emain stealted when some1 will come and use PBAE there
I Thought you are skilled player, now i'm SURE you are that casue you cheat. And Words wont prove you are NOT, well as well they dont prove you are <sigh>

P.S AS for me playing Uger, well Trapp is playing Krov then shes crossteaming 2? 100 people a day swap accounts then we have 100 crossteamers a day? I dont fall so low, and this sh1t was already discussed here a year ago or so.

 

[Krom]

eh, just read my first post :\\

If u needs Anarki in my details explains, I do this.

Lothers stone, birches few E from it and group of birches and firs on halfway to mmg is so very good known and populated camp place, that I try checks it each time (when I leave mtk) as possible. It's as grove near Dun Ailinne with exp-cheat stone, where exping pbaers and rangers each morning. It not even the luck! It's a pattern to find campers there.
Just reread end of my first post.

About your death at gobor's grove: u was not stealthed! I with Krasotka raiding by circle atk - road - grannies - N border of gobor's grove - lother's stone - atk. We seen u before, and we was seek u. We was see u from lother's stone when he run unsheathed by S border of grove from atk direction. I was have sended pet on u (some bag in pet coding: if he sended on enemy skald song don't effect on him) and was known direction to u by seeing on pet.

About amg: u mean when I, Uger and Rexy kill 3 st's in amg 3-4 day ago? If yes, it was a real luck. We camp amg about 30-40 min already (it was really fun - 2 RC RM and one SM on perch ; we was looks as turret, heh I have screen of it ) and kill already about fg+ albs. I remember Kate, u, blue mini who along running around...Lunar was try attack us on perch
When past ~10-15 min from we last time seen anyone Uger said that he log if no one come (it was about ~6GMT) and we go to check atk. I pass amg second and when I seen poison cloud on Uger I cast my pbae mess immediately. And u Anarki really have suck stealth, because I seen u from big distance...u was stay in SE inner corner of amg - I in middle. Anyway it was a luck for us.

 

[old.Rusfighter]

LOL Anarki "Me, Edelia and Danyan cought in pbae mez while walkig stealthed through amg!" Man! Be real! When U walk through any gates in macha - be ready 4 AE (PBAE) somethin. Every time my group come to gates... unstick, AE (PBAE) on doors, ST scout, go.