To: Garcal / Draconis Alumni

[Ghelwina]

Could you please do the explaining here as you seemed inable in game?
Fins = 2 tanks and 1 stalker for tanking and you were #1 on stalker list and me #1 on tank. Bm left and i got invited to tank spot. You started whining about that and later came with druid (Airazor) and eldritch (Bouncers) to ruin our exp and finally managed to split up the group.

So now id like to have an explanation about that. Until that you and your guild will stay on my shitlist.

 

[Novo]

ARRGGHH!

/rant on
Never normally post this kind of post and try and keep well out of it but what has just happened made me lose my cool. So here is some background to the post above!

Garcall (lvl 50 Hero) brought himself and 2 of his guilds lvl 50 friends to disrupt and eventually stop xping at the Cursed Forest fins tonight…. The reason being that as a Nightshade he was not allowed to join as a Tank replacement.

As far as I was told the fins group rules give that there should be:-

1 Stalker (Ranger/Nightshade)
2 Tanks (Hero/Blademaster/Champion)
1 Bard
1 Druid
1 Pber
1 Nuker
1 Warden

Garcall has a lvl 48 Nightshade alt called Garcal (not confusing is it). Garcal (alt) was after me on the fins list today. I waited 8 hrs for Eriu (lvl 45 Nightshade) from 10.30ish (GMT) this morning to finish his turn and joined the group. We xped happily for a few hours till it was time to replace Culanan (Champion I think) with next on the list Caleth (Hero)…. At this point Garcal showed up and spent the next few minutes arguing he should have the next Tank place…. This continued for some time till he left.

The list holder and Group had a short discussion with him in a chat group to try and solve the problem but he didn't agree… SO he brought his lvl 50 Hero and 2 lvl 50 guildies to CF … and basically disrupted the group till we all got tired and left. I died once due to the distruptions he brought to the group, he spoilt what was a happy and ordered fins group for his own amusement.

So I’m a little cross at the moment and was wondering if this is acceptable behavour. I personally will never group with him again or his 2 Guildies … they joined in a disagreement they new nothing about and made no attempt to listen or justify there actions. SAD.

/rant off

 

[old.Charonel]

well, from what's been said you run several seperate lists for each spot, ie a nuker list, a pber list, a stalker list etc....

since you wouldnt replace someone from the tank spot with someone from the stalker list or someone from the stalker spot with a tank, it seems that he had no right to the place.

ie, a void eld (in that situation) being on the nuker list, wouldnt have been replacing the pber, rather another pber from that list would have come on right? sounds like he was playing out the bored and extremely frustrated part of being a stalker

still stands though, if the fins lists are run that way, then he had no spot to join at that time.

 

[1Jesta]

I was in that grp with my warden alt, Garcall u r a lame twat.

What i saw u do tonite was simply unreal, I sincerly hope DA take this matter up with you.

gl soloing to 50...uke:


Edit : I even had airazor pm me agreeing to the fact it was lame afterwards, says a lot for DA...

 

[kalid]

What is this "RULE" about fin lists??? When did this "rule" apply? I've never seen it, only some templates for a good fin group. A highlevel "stalker" can easy be a tank at the fins..

According to Garcall:
Garcall onlu needed 0.8 so Sebula had told him when the next tank would leave he would getting invitation. Sebula was running the list at the time and then he left - the spot was Garcals in my opinion (no matter if he was on the stalker list). At the time of the post sebula isn't online in the game.

Then you're not telling the truth when you say he pulled out 2 level 50 DA. He logged on his level 50 hero that is true, but he was alone doing that. Bouncer and airazor was not part of it.
None of them are lvl 50 and Bouncer isn't even a DA.

Agreed it's not very smart of nice to start pulling fins outside the group. On the other hand it's also understandable to get very frustrating to be told to get the next spot and then not get invited.

 

[1Jesta]

He logged on his level 50 hero that is true, but he was alone doing that. Bouncer and airazor was not part of it.

lol, so they just came for the scenery then?

Airazor was healing him whilst he nicked the mobs.

 

[Novo]

Kalid,

I think you need to get your facts straight and talk to all parties before you defend someone... Garcal's idea of what happened will vary alot from what the 8-10 others involved in this little dispute saw happen.

As far as a frustrated Stalker ... well i'm a lvl 47 ranger ... i've waited more than 10 hours for a fins group and in alot of cases never even made one after waiting all day. BUT i've never decided to make sure that everyone suffers ... you take the good with the Bad... imho!

AND Yes Ariazor and Bouncers (sorry but he is lvl 50) did help him ... Bouncers (promise definately lvl 50 Kalid) nuked fins we pulled while Garcall Tanked them.... Ariazor healed him after ... so what ever the story, wich i will leave to them to justify they where invloved and actively helped him!

 

[old.Xanthian]

Originally posted by kalid

None of them are lvl 50 and Bouncer isn't even a DA.

Bouncer and the other guy are Lobos Blancos and are both lvl 50.
Ive had problems wit them disrespecting other realm members in the past, same with Los Elegidos, quite franky they are all a bunch of idiots and belong on the other side of the game(Albion).
I wont xp or rvr with them again, and I certianly wont grp ANY DA untill Garcall is booted,

 

[Spudgie]

A void eld with 46Void + 26Mana as 2ndary spec can replace a pbaoer Because i've done it a helluva a lot.

 

[Ghelwina]

Bouncers / 50 / Lobos Blancos
Airazor / 46 / Draconis Alumni
(Not that it really matters...)

They were both helping Garcall.

 

[1Jesta]

The argument and frustration here isnt about the list or whatever its the fact Garcall came to CF fins with 2 mates, with 1 thing in mind, to fuck the grp up and spoil our exping.

We pulled, garcall dived in, hit the fins, bouncers nuked em and airazor healed him.

They had no other intention other than to actively spoil the game for a grp that had been there for hours upon hours.

This isnt a go at DA as I know a load of them and they r all sound ppl, I just hope you do summit about Garcall, as in my mind what he did is not something i'd want associated with my guild.

 

[JoxerTheMighty]

Guysguysguys....please calm down.
I am not interferring in this matter. But please...do not judge DA or Los Elegidios by the actions of one or two members.
A mate of mine is in DA and I doubt that he would behave in such a manner.
Same goes with L.E. I had quite a few good hunts with them. Yes...sometimes the language barrier is a problem, but the people of LE I met are definately no idiots like Xanthian said.

So please.....inform the GM of DA of this incident if you like but don't think in advance that every member of DA acts like this.

Thank you

 

[kalid]

Facts ok....

SO he brought his lvl 50 Hero and 2 lvl 50 guildies to CF "

True or False?

I'm relating to what Garcall told me, and I'm waiting for Sebula to get online.

Fact is Airazor didn't heal under the fight and wasn't even grouped with them.

This looks bad I've already agreed on that.
But also promising a spot to someone and not keeping it either isn't very nice (Sebula is still offline).

Edit: Regarding lists etc Sebula was the list holder and had promised Garcal the spot when a tank left. Then Sebula had to relogg and lost GL. When he came back a tank had left, but instead of getting Garcal the new GL had invited another tank to join them.

 

[censi]

I have always found garcal to be a charming little fellow.... Polite nice etc......

I also know Novo is a nice chap to...


Just one thing... Garcal's english is bad....

I am sure this whole thing is just a cummincation breakdown.. Garcal may not of understood the concept of Being the 2nd Shade in the list....

Dont let this get out of hand, cuz Garcal is a nice guy....

(as for lobos blancos---no comment)

 

[athalas]

Garcal and DA.

I have grp'd with Garcal many times and have found him a pretty OK guy. I've never had cause for complaint with him. Infact I have to say this is the 1st ever whinge I have heard about him.

Firstly we need to make a distinction. That is Garcal is NOT DA but is a member of the guild he does not speak for DA either - so just because one of it's memebers causes a problem - then dont think that were all out to break the rules here. Because we have many very good people in the guild.

I am fairly confident that this is a 'one moment of madness' from Garcal. I'm sure it was frustration after waiting and waiting for his promised place and then denial that he thought he'd solo. I'm sure it was just an oversight on his behalf and maybe he didn't know how exacting the rules are when it comes to FINS. But again maybe he did.

There has been a post and a URL to this link on our Forums and we will take the opportunity to speak to him once he's next online. I will direct him here to this thread and he can read for him self and hopefully this can be sorted out as soon as possible.

Have fun chaps - till next time...


Rgds,

Athalas
Webmaster & Forum Admin - Draconis Alumni. www.draconisalumni.co.uk

 

[Lessurl]

Originally posted by kalid
Edit: Regarding lists etc Sebula was the list holder and had promised Garcal the spot when a tank left. Then Sebula had to relogg and lost GL. When he came back a tank had left, but instead of getting Garcal the new GL had invited another tank to join them.

It is always the list holder who says who is next to be invited, whether he is gl or not.


And in regards to garcall's behaviour, i've heard of and seen personally a few people getting frutrsted at fins but i have NEVER heard of anyone acting in such an unnaceptable way as this. Just because he couldn't get into a very much oversubscribed at the weekends fins grp he decided to destroy the xping of 8 people. Many of whom may have been waiting hours on the list to finally get in then discover that someone with the emotional age of a 5 year old was taking a temper tantrum and had decided that if they couldn't play then noone else could either. (correct me if i'm wrong but this is the view i get from the accounts i've read so far). A lot of these 8 people may gave been xping at one of the few times when they can get on for long enough to do so (weekend) and garcal just decided to destroy the game for them. All of these people are trying to make it through those final grinding levels to get to the magical 50 some of the toughest in the game.
Oh yes, and athalas said it was "frustration after waiting for his promised place then denial that he thought he'd solo". Then why the f%^& did he bring his lvl 50 hero to solo instead of doing it with his shade (the char that was on the list and needed the xp)?!?

Garcall uke:

/edit for some reason bw only posted about 1/2 my message the first time

 

[Mirhen Morkir]

I can hardly see this as being an accident, and to say that he was frustrated after waiting for a fins spot is no justification for open griefing like this.

Sebula may have offered him the spot in the group, but if Sebula was no longer the group lead/list holder, then that offer would no longer stand. Would you really accept 'XXXX said i could have the spot a week last thursday' ?

All we can hope is that all the griefers go play on the Pvp server as soon as it's open, then they can kill each other left right and centre for any petty little issue the feel is justification. So roll on the PVP server so we can get on with helping our true realmates.

 

[Gahldir]

offering a spot in a group to someone and not beeing able to keep this offer is not the best you can do. but that is no way close as bad as destroying for others...

If you don't have the patience for it, you should never roll as a stalker.

 

[Tiptap]

Personally, the act of a Guild member does reflect the Guild he belongs to...that is the point isn't it?

There are a quite a number of level 50 rogues now, wonder if any of them did this? I know that they had similar problems. (Silvear has a lovely way with words...)

As regards the other 2...The people THERE are telling you they were involved. Your decision is to take the evidence presented as a whole and reach a conclusion. Perhaps ask them what the hell they were doing there if they were not involved? I can see no reason for them being there and based on the few posts here from people involved, they were involoved.

For me. There is NO reason for those people levelling not to tell the truth as they saw it.....Ergo, Garcell is a spiteful child, with friends of similar demeanor.

 

[Alrindel]

I was in Tir Na Nog crafting when I got a message from Sebula, saying that Novo was leaving the CF fins group in 20 minutes, and I could have his spot (I had been at the fins spot that morning when there were two groups being organized there and some confusion over who had the right to the spot - my group eventually went to DF). I headed out there, and saw Novo's death message on the way. By the time I got there, Garcall was in full griefing mode and the group could no longer pull for fear of him interfering and getting them killed. I waited a few minutes until I understood that he was not going to let anyone continue exping there, and then I left as the group broke up.

He should be ashamed of himself, and his guild should be ashamed of him. He was wearing your emblem and your name: he was acting on your behalf whether you like it, or want to admit it, or not.

 

[Ziva]

Personally i hate the fins, not the mob itself but these mobs seem to accomplish something feelings no other mobs can cause: greediness, arrogance and frustrated people. Pretty sad to see i must say.

But that's just the way it is and apparently people like to break up whole groups for them (and leave others behind who have no choice then waiting another 2 hours for someone to fulfill the open spot), spend 12 hours begging online and sometimes even fight over a spot for these. This considering i think u should be really carefull with promising a spot to people when u are listholder or even groupmember.

As far as i know Garcall waited like 12 hours to get a spot and when a tank finally left he did not get the spot because the list holder (Sebula) had to relog and when he came back the person that became groupleader had invited a fellow guildmember tank to come in the group.

Now i doubt if Garcall knew about the "rules" for the list. I never heard of the rules and from what i know a NS can tank as good as a lvl 44-45 tank because of evade. So if these rules applied for this group it would be nice if Garcall had known about them right?

To me it looked like another case people of not wanting a NS in the group. I see it happen all the time and people rather seem to make up lame excuses instead of beeing honest and saying "No sorry m8, we prefer to have no rangers or nightshades in the group".

The person who invited his fellow guildmember to come in group and was NOT the listleader because Sebula was, was just as lame as Garcall after he got pissed imho.

I am not saying that the way Garcall and his friends ruined the finshunt is okay, but it was a case of a DA guildmember and a spanish friend helping Garcall because they felt sorry for him. No need to judge DA on the whole for this.

Sure u can judge this and say innocent people had to suffer from this, but unfortunatelly it's always the good suffering from the bad. And in this case the person who invited his guildmate instead of Garcall could have left the group too but he didn't. So he's just as bad in this.

Like i said before... really sad to see people react when it comes to fins. It's just a game no need to flame eachother for a couple of mobs. There are enough other mobs to fight out there.

 

[Alrindel]

A couple of points. Firstly, there is no problem at all having two rogues and one shield tank in a fins group. You don't really want three rogues as tanks (although it can be done) but I spent the better part of a day with my ranger and Peach the nightshade in a Cursed Forest group without a death or any significant down time. That isn't the issue here.

Secondly, the issue is also not how long Garcal was waiting or whether or not he should have been given the spot that the group had reserved for a shield tank. It's about how he responded to the situation. Earlier that morning there was another dispute at the CF fins spot. One person logged on early in the morning, went to the forest, and started making a group, and holding a list. Another person logged on over an hour later, and despite the fact that he knew someone was already there making a group, he started making a competing group and holding a competing list for the same spot. After he managed to make his group first, he started pulling and then announced to the first group, "move on pls this spot taken we here for the whole day". By that point the first group was nearly complete anyways. We could have easily started griefing them, messing with their pulls, but we tried to talk it out and when that didn't go anywhere, we had to move on, even though I still feel that the other group leader was very much in the wrong, and as far as I'm concerned he stole the spot. Shortly after that before we had left the forest, they accidentally pulled the giant monkey and wiped out, and while we had a good laugh at it, there was never any question of us not rezzing them or using the opportunity to take the spot for ourselves (one of their healers got away, so we didn't need to go back, but we had already decided in group chat to go and rez if they needed us).

Finally, if I had known what the problem was, as Novo's "official" replacement I would have cheerfully given up my rogue spot to Garcal's nightshade to let him finish his level. I've given up my fins spot before to let others share the exp, that wasn't a problem for me. But it was too late for that, because Garcal picked his own way to deal with the problem - bring some friends to start griefing the group and shut it down for everybody. At that point he crossed a line, and that's the issue at hand here. It doesn't matter how justified he thinks he was in throwing his tantrum and griefing other hibs. He did it and now he and his guild have to face the consequences.

 

[Lisco_Cataluz]

Next step in this flaming thread should be...

Who kept all those Firebrands!!!! and didn't distribute loot after fight!!!




--- Not going to camp at Cursed Forest ever again ---



<Lisco>

Elf Grove Protector

 

[Ziva]

Originally posted by Alrindel
He did it and now he and his guild have to face the consequences.

So basically u are just saying "good should suffer from the bad" with this comment while u reject this behaviour (Garcall made the good suffer from the bad too basically) in the same thread. Pretty odd if u ask me. But hey, if u wanna boycot a whole guild for this it's your bet m8.

In the meantime i will continue to understand that some behaviour is different from mine but that's the same as in RL where i meet these people too. But somehow people sometimes seem to forget they deal with humans behind the computers in this game. People are not allowed to make mistakes it seems and if they do they are flamed in public on this board.

I'm wondering if the people involved even made the effort to talk to the GM before they started this post, because i am sure that this could have been solved ingame.

 

[masentaja]

Please don't bring this subject to all DA's...
I know few of their members and they are best players around..
Let them deal the Garcal subject.. since now they know what has happened :/

nothing more...

 

[Cloak_]

But Fins suck !!!!

Sure if ya wanna get narced about 30-40milxp a pull then go ahead, shheeeeesh

Take 2 groups to Knights so much more fun

 

[Alrindel]

Originally posted by Ziva
So basically u are just saying "good should suffer from the bad"

No, I'm saying that the guild - which has posted a code of conduct on its web site - now has to face its responsibilites and deal with its members. I'm not judging the individual members of Draconis Alumni on the actions of two members. I am judging the guild on its reaction to what happened.

I'm co-GM of a small guild, one of the oldest on Excalibur. We have only had to deal with this sort of thing once before, where one of our members got into some sort of fight with a group while exping, and I told him to apologize and sort it out or quit the guild on the spot (which he did). I personally don't care if Garcal wants to run around griefing hibs from Connacht to the Bog, but if he does it wearing <Draconis Alumni> over his head then he has dragged the guild into it whether they like it or not.

In the meantime i will continue to understand that some behaviour is different from mine but that's the same as in RL where i meet these people too. But somehow people sometimes seem to forget they deal with humans behind the computers in this game. People are not allowed to make mistakes it seems and if they do they are flamed in public on this board.

No, we are dealing with the humans behind the computer. We're telling them to take responsibility for their actions. This is a MMORPG with several thousand players in its community. What you do in the game has repercussions and this is one of them - if anyone can't deal with that, they should go back to playing games like Diablo and Quake, where they can change servers every 30 minutes and start fresh over and over again.

 

[Novo]

Long post sorry!

Running the Fins list is a thankless task … I’ve done it several times now and its tough. Particularly as you get people logging in and out to see if they’re likely to get in soon. When change time comes you have to get a replacement fairly quickly otherwise 7 people just sit idly around for ages…. If the next on the list is not online then you move along the list to the next … and so on! That is how I’ve managed the list … if your playing an alt and don’t tell me or give me the alts name then I’m no mind reader, its hard luck & move on.

As to Garcall, to fill in a few facts … what ever he had been promised (I didn’t have the fins list so was not privy to the private messages), I was the 1st Stalker on the list. I’d been on it since 10.30am, sent updated messages to Sebula (list holder) and Eriu (Stalker in group, lvl 45 NS) seeing how things where going etc …. I waited over 8 hrs for my spot.

When we came to changing tanks. Sebula told us in group chat that I’d told Garcal he was next, this is total lies as I never even new he was on fins list. From my understanding at the time, it came across that Garcal was trying to Force his way into the group… We discussed the situation in group chat and agreed that the 1 Stalker 2 Tanks format was fairest, there where lots of Tanks waiting and Garcal should wait till my spot opened. We told him so, openly and honestly. Created a chat group to discuss this when he objected, even invited Ariazor into it to help with Garcals poor English. At one point I decided I’d had enough of and told the group I’d leave and let Garcal in. But the group said no, this was a moral stand and that I should stay. So I Told Garcal I’d be 1 hour or so more then he could have my spot in a pm. He vanished and we got down to Xping … about 30 minutes later I started to get tired and asked Sebula to get the next Stalker (Garcal), he didn’t respond to his messages so the next on the list was called - Alrindel.

At this point Gracll (lvl 50 Hero) arrived with 2 friends – Bouncers (lvl 50 Eldritch) and Ariazor (lvl 47 Druid, sorry Kalid you where right got this one wrong!). As we pulled mobs, Garcall would wait till we had aggro sorted then start wacking a Fin, Bouncers would nuke for him. After the fight Ariazor would heal Garcall. This continued for some 20 minutes with a lot of frustration and disruption to the group. None of the 3 would respond to pm’s of /say’s they just kept doing there best to disrupt. Eventually we all got fed-up and disbanded.

I have talked to Airazor after the event, he said he was confused about what was going on. No he was not grouped with Garcall but he did heal him After pulls. I don’t blame anyone but Garcall, he I’m sure told his 2 friend’s a nice little story on how he was cheated. He has most likely told Kalid and a few others the same. Fine … that’s his account! Above is mine… the fins Group I was in plus the 5-6 people who swapped in and out will confirm the above.

This was plain wrong … whatever the issues around Fins! Garcall has made a lot of innocent parties suffer due to his frustration. Don’t get me wrong, I FULLY understand his frustration. I’ve been there to … as was once said … “once you get a stalker class into a fins group, the only way to get them out is to cut the power”. This means that we wait ages for that one spot, lately Merbos, Alrindel, Autakris, Noche and Eriu will a test to this as we all are trying for that 1 spot. BUT it still does not make his actions right or justified … End of Discussion!

Sorry for the long post … as some seemed to what to challenge what happened … though it best to make sure everyone knows what really happened from my point. My last post on this and I’m letting it drop now I’ve had some sleep and a lot cooler about it.

Edit: I personally didn’t what this to be a Guild discussion. Please let that part drop, DA is a fine guild and that’s that. What needs to be communicated is that this type of behaviour is unacceptable in Hib. Full stop! And no none of the GM's where on line, i tried!

 

[Tyka]

A simple send to the DA GM would've solved this, really don't like it when someone brings a whole guild into a discussion just because of one person.

 

[Alrindel]

How, exactly? What secret GM command could any of the four DA GMs have used to stop Garcal from griefing the group, even if they had been online (and I have no idea if they were or not)?